Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[twisted 128]

I need to stop sprinting everywhere and then expecting sniper stable firing accuracy. Fatigue is awesome because it now demands I try think tactially on how i approach sitatuions rather than bf4 charge in. Only change i think it needs is a slightly slower ramp up but other than that it rocks.

[mamasan8 11]

Let's not draw comparisons to OFP as a valid reason for why something should or should not change.

You're bringing in a whole bunch of other issues into the argument such that your post is derailing the topic. It seems like you're getting out of breath quickly because you're carrying a lot of magazines. I'm not sure I see the logic in making those magazines way more so that you carry less of them. Huh? You can pack a lot because the bag fits a lot. That doesn't mean it's going to be easy to carry. But even if it did, how would making them weigh more solve your problem? The developers have made a design decision to make your gear a more significant factor in your play and tactics. Adapt, or disable fatigue. I reiterate that just because your strategies have worked in the past, that does not mean they should work now, or that the game is flawed because they do not.

Armor/damage is another issue that doesn't belong in this thread. But as a helpful hint, let's try to avoid using hyperbole when discussing game balance changes. You do not need to use a whole magazine to kill one enemy.

The topic is fatigue, and that ties into what we can pack, how much we can pack and why we pack what we pack in our bags. Understand?

You are introducing hyperbole, not me.

And oh yes I do have to empty a clip into 1 enemy. Takes 5-10 shots to kill anything. Not every shot I fire is going to hit and rarely if ever do I hit the head. So 10 hits, 15 misses. I don't fight point blank. Now, what am I gonna do with a mag with 5 bullets left? It's useless to me.

The strategy of shooting an enemy and them dying is a strategy that shouldn't work? Or at least be somehow affected by bullets, let's say poorer aim...

Why add weight to clips? I already explained that. Because we can pack ridiculous amounts of ammo (unrealistic), BIS are introducing fatigue so we don't do that.

But the problem to begin with was created by BIS, by their design.

I don't honestly understand the upside of the design choices. I see none.

Why did I mention OFP? Because in my opinion it was more realistic. You shot someone, AI or human, they would get poorer aim. You could shoot them enough times so their legs wouldn't carry them anymore, they got stuck in prone mode. You could still be healed.

It was basic but theres not even a sign of anything similar in Arma 3.

Why isn't there per-pixel hitboxes? And effects designed to go with that? Why isn't anything that already existed in previous versions expanded upon?

I play the game the way I want. If BIS introduces something I don't like, I'm going to wait for a mod that disables it. Those always pop up. But getting into an online game will be harder, if not impossible since mods are rarely used. Which is why ACE was/is so popular. Most people liked most of the features (and to hell with everything BIS introduced =)).

[vegeta897 13]

The topic is fatigue, and that ties into what we can pack, how much we can pack and why we pack what we pack in our bags. Understand?

You are introducing hyperbole, not me.

Where am I introducing hyperbole? I have exaggerated nothing. It does not take 5-10 hits to kill an enemy, unless you're talking about pistol ammo at a distance, which you are not. If you are using an entire magazine to kill 1 enemy, you are doing something wrong. I've played plenty of this game and that simply has never happened to me. At most I'll see 5 hits with an MX at a distance for the enemy to go down. There are problems with hitting the enemy's weapon that causes no damage at all, but my point about you going off topic is that that is a separate issue to fatigue, even if it affects the fatigue in an indirect way.

My point was that we shouldn't be using other problems the game has to justify balance arguments. We would get nothing done that way. If BIS improved the damage system so that you didn't end up having to use a magazine to kill an enemy (though I have never had this problem) your major gripe about the fatigue system would disappear. The problem you have with killing enemies exists regardless of the new fatigue. That is why it's an unrelated issue. There is already a thread about the damage system/body armor and you should talk about what it takes to kill an enemy there.

The strategy of shooting an enemy and them dying is a strategy that shouldn't work? Or at least be somehow affected by bullets, let's say poorer aim...

The strategy of carrying an excessive amount of ammo and expecting your aim and run speed to not be affected should not work. This gives a real advantage to packing light, which has been non-existent before. Packing heavy is still possible, but with its own disadvantages. That is the intention of the change.

Why add weight to clips? I already explained that. Because we can pack ridiculous amounts of ammo (unrealistic), BIS are introducing fatigue so we don't do that.

Your explanation didn't make much sense, and I said why. Increasing the weight of magazines would reduce the number of magazines we can carry, but how would it decrease the total weight? I don't think you can pack ridiculous amounts of ammo. You could fit a number of magazines into a large backpack in reality. Magazines have a high weight to volume ratio, so if you were to actually fill your pack with them, it would be quite heavy. Limiting the number of magazines you can put in the pack just to discourage over-packing is known as dumbing down the game. The player should be responsible for watching what he packs, not the game simply not letting him.

Why did I mention OFP? Because in my opinion it was more realistic. You shot someone, AI or human, they would get poorer aim. You could shoot them enough times so their legs wouldn't carry them anymore, they got stuck in prone mode. You could still be healed.

You didn't say anything about those gameplay elements of OFP, you said that 8 clips lasted forever. All you said was that 8 clips lasted longer in OFP, with no reasoning given as to why 8 clips should last forever. That is a logical fallacy known as appeal to tradition. You simply said it's in OFP, which implies A3 should follow suit, as if that's a given. I agree with you that those are good things to have in the game (disabling legs, poorer aim). I think BIS has been recently working in this area. I'm certain that AI in A3 have poorer aim if you injure them, but this should be more dramatic.

Edited July 13, 2014 by vegeta897

[mamasan8 11]

In OFP, shots counted, they were lethal. Which led to better aiming and choosing my moment to shoot if I wanted to stay alive. Better tactics, planning etc as well. And I was less of a packmule.

The reason I mention the indirect effects are because I see everything as an ecosystem. If you change the damage of something(seemingly unrelated to fatigue), it might affect what we will carry with us.

IIRC, grenade launcher grenades weren't that effecting in the beginning. So why carry them? More space for ammo (more effective than GL ammo). But I would not be playing my role as a grenadier. How would this tie into fatigue? It means I have to leg it more, to get closer to infantry. To be able to shoot them behind that hill. Instead of lobbing GL grenades. This would introduce fatigue.

Everything affects everything else IMHO.

Then theres the newly added scope sway which makes it crucial (IMHO) that we get weaponresting. I really like VTS weaponresting but most of my fave servers don't allow it.

Fatigue again.

I'm not against fatigue and similar things per se. What I am against is the current implementation. Luckily theres mods.

Edited July 13, 2014 by mamasan8

[vegeta897 13]

Yes, everything does affect everything else, and that's why we need to update other systems in the game along with the fatigue update. That's why we have several threads about these systems active at the same time. I got the impression from your post that the new system was crap simply because the other systems didn't play well with it. That doesn't make it crap, it just means the game needs to be rebalanced a bit around it. I wouldn't argue against the opinion that the fatigue needs to be adjusted further though. And yeah, weapon-resting is essential, but I've had that through mods for a while.

[instagoat 133]

I think the fatigue system is alright, the only thing I don't understand right now is how the weapons sway works. Is it supposed to make LMGs worse in CQB? I'm not noticing any changes. As for the fatigue ramp-up, I actually like how it affects you now and how you need to manage your stamina. I actually played some missions by throwing away all gear I didn't need for something I wanted to do: in survive, I had to recover ammo from a damaged truck. I dropped my pack, all my ammo aside from two grenades and two magazines, and then snuck around the enemies, keeping much more mobile for lack of gear to carry. This is what makes the game brilliant with this implementation, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Weapons resting will probably come in some fashion or the other, as has been hinted in the announcement of the marksmens DLC. First, we'll get firing from vehicles, though, which is also super exciting.

So, if you don't want to be encumbered, drop that pack.

[Greenfist 1863]

I think the fatigue system is alright, the only thing I don't understand right now is how the weapons sway works. Is it supposed to make LMGs worse in CQB? I'm not noticing any changes.

The weapon inertia is not yet implemented, that is supposed to make a difference in CQB. The swaying is same for all weapons currently.

[blackpixxel 53]

Do we really have to wait until 2015 to be able to rest weapons? This should not be part of the marksmen-DLC. Until this time nobody would be able to use a sniper rifle or an MMG without mods..

[-Coulum- 35]

Weapon resting might not even be in the marksmen dlc. Its not confirmed or even mentioned by the devs.

[seba1976 98]

Do we really have to wait until 2015 to be able to rest weapons? This should not be part of the marksmen-DLC. Until this time nobody would be able to use a sniper rifle or an MMG without mods..

Perhaps they want to make mods important again :rolleyes:.

[blackpixxel 53]

But then the current fatique system feels wrong.

It is the same with the damage system: we have body armour, but a poor medical system. Both dont really work together

Now there is a fatique system (wich I really love), but you cant rest your weapon as you would do IRL when you want to shoot after running.

Have you ever tried to make long range shots? It is more about luck with the new weapon sway. You have to wait until the gun gets randomly moved above your target - then you shoot. And that even without being tired after running!

[Bouben 3]

So we should choose between a fatigue system nobody likes and no fatigue system at all

Please, next time speak on behalf of yourself only. Thank you.

I enjoy the new fatigue system although it could be improved (weapon resting, less unnatural slowmo animations...).

[seba1976 98]

Please, next time speak on behalf of yourself only. Thank you.

He knows he's not alone, so he can speak on behalf of others. And "we", in this case, are legion.

[Jona33 51]

He knows he's not alone, so he can speak on behalf of others. And "we", in this case, are legion.

"We" would be acceptable, "Nobody" implies he speaks on behalf of everybody.

[seba1976 98]

"We" would be acceptable, "Nobody" implies he speaks on behalf of everybody.

"Nobody", as in, "none of us" :).

[Jona33 51]

"Nobody", as in, "none of us" :).

His words "A fatigue system nobody likes", I like it so not only is his statement rendered false he is claiming I don't like it.

[Anachoretes 10]

I like new fatigue system. Need some time to adapt and need some tweaks maybe. Maybe, less fatigue effect in low stances, and less fatigue coefficient at all. Of course weak psyches will search the room to avoid this in easy manner. But it's right way. Can't handle with heavy stuff - leave this for experienced players. As i say, need some tweaks. Marksman's and snipers get more troubles than other - they still don't have bipods or something.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I like it, it only needs tweaking as stated. For example, just a little less sway, slightly less, and i can already guess we won't be seeing weapon resting till the Marksman DLC. But so far, loving the changes. Makes resting and not carrying 4 rockets and an LMG more a decision based on the probability of Survival/Mission success.

[fareast 20]

i like the new fatigue/sway system except fot the weird slowmo thing

[neodammerung 8]

Please, next time speak on behalf of yourself only. Thank you.

I don't speak on behalf of myself, I like the new fatigue system, but not without a proper weapon resting system, I was just saying I don't like the concept of ON /OFF

Thank you

Edited July 14, 2014 by Neodammerung

[Sillywabbit 10]

Basically add new weapon sway + fatigue call it realistic but you scan run up a metal tower, open a door with out you someone hearing a single thing -.- (lets not even talk about how you basically teleport up the ramps =/) the devs are so out of touch with their game its unreal.

[vegeta897 13]

Basically add new weapon sway + fatigue call it realistic but you scan run up a metal tower, open a door with out you someone hearing a single thing -.- (lets not even talk about how you basically teleport up the ramps =/) the devs are so out of touch with their game its unreal.

Not addressing every single issue in the game at once is not an indication of being out of touch with their game. It's an indication that we are not dreaming ;)

[neodammerung 8]

As for those who want a Stamina Bar, I guess the Shacktac Community and Dslyecxi have noted your request

http://dslyecxi.com/shacktac_wp/shacktac-mods/shacktac-stamina-bar/

[vegeta897 13]

I do like how subtle it is, as far as UI clutter. Still, it feels so "gamey" to me in concept that I think I'd rather keep trying to achieve an intuitive feel for the new stamina system.

[faire 10]

The weapon resting should have been in by now. Maybe BIS could endorse VTS Simple weapon resting mod somehow, the backlash from PvP community seems to be really intense.