Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[Bouben 3]

A heart rate data included in the GPS won't do no harm, this way we can see our condition and isn't based on the breathing sound. Those who practice sport, knows that this is how it is done.

I think this would not be good. This would actually clutter the interface even more because of GPS (I hate to run around with it being on).

Also, I don't think the heartbeat would give enough of needed fatigue info, because heartbeat is not strictly tied to fatigue. In other words, your heart beat does not represent your fatigue. I can be very calm IRL and therefore had calm heartbeat but at the same time very tired and unable to walk because I have 30 km in my legs already and I need to go sleep.

[John Kozak 14]

Honestly, it's not necessary to have the fatigue bar added. Why? Well, because when you get tired in real life, it's simply that. Your tired. You start to slow down, breath hard, and that's it. Not really a bar telling you how tired to you are, all you know is that you need to rest. Or, your like me, and runs a little, walks some, runs a little, walks some. Keeping pace. A Fatigue bar is kinda... Idk. It'll break immersion. imho.

Two questions: what makes you walk instead of running? And do you need to try to sprint to know you're tired?

[Bouben 3]

And do you need to try to sprint to know you're tired?

Exactly.

Or: "do you need to aim through your sights in order to know that you are tired?"

[Variable 322]

what makes you walk instead of running? And do you need to try to sprint to know you're tired?

do you need to aim through your sights in order to know that you are tired?

When you hear yourself panting in a certain level, you know you can't sprint. No more indications are needed, and you don't need to try to sprint or look down your sights.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Variable

[seba1976 98]

It's soooo damn easy for an addon maker or scripter to do one fatigue bar, that perhaps we're wasting too much energy on this subject?

[Variable 322]

It's soooo damn easy for an addon maker or scripter to do one fatigue bar, that perhaps we're wasting too much energy on this subject?

And yet it is in some people's mindset that people who object should come up with an addon that REMOVES said fatigue bar :) pretty funny.

[Bouben 3]

When you hear yourself panting in a certain level, you know you can't sprint. No more indications are needed, and you don't need to try to sprint or look down your sights.

Somebody already explain how impractical would be having sound indicator only in a big firefight...

Also, it does not tell you the rate that I am talking about all the time in this thread. I would say the visual rate (climbing up and down) feedback is the most important propriety of the fatigue bar I would like to see in the game.

[blackpixxel 53]

Fact is: Players who can't determine their fatique with the current system will also not be able to do so with a health bar. They must either be blind and deaf or completely stupid.

The current system has enough signals to tell your the fatique level.

And to all those arguments "In reallife i can do this and this":

In real life you feel pain when you get shot, you can get mentally destroyed by war, you can become totally exhausted.

I would say that making other things a LITTLE harder ingame is just a tiny compensation for all the advantages that the game has over real war.

[froggyluv 2135]

Toggle on toggle off bar, heart icon, defibulator, nagging finger whatever...you guys getting worked up over nothing

[seba1976 98]

And yet it is in some people's mindset that people who object should come up with an addon that REMOVES said fatigue bar :) pretty funny.

:) And were is ACE when everybody but me need them?

[Bouben 3]

Fact is: Players who can't determine their fatique with the current system will also not be able to do so with a health bar. They must either be blind and deaf or completely stupid.

The current system has enough signals to tell your the fatique level.

And to all those arguments "In reallife i can do this and this":

In real life you feel pain when you get shot, you can get mentally destroyed by war, you can become totally exhausted.

I would say that making other things a LITTLE harder ingame is just a tiny compensation for all the advantages that the game has over real war.

There is nothing worse in a game than an artificial "challenge" based on irrationality, absurdity and stubbornness. That is not a challenge but bullshit. It is like as if the interface was intentionally stupidly designed so that it can be challenging to do simple stuff. I hate this approach to challenge and difficulty.

I am so tired of this thread. I have already written everything I wanted on the topic so I will leave this fatigue bar discussion to the rest of you. In the end, it will be BIS who will decide what to do or not with this.

Have a nice day, guys.

[blackpixxel 53]

There is nothing worse in a game than an artificial "challenge" based on bla bla bla

When you really think that it is a challenge to determine the your fatique in the current version, then you should consider playing another game. Arma has other things that are 1000x more difficult.

This one is so easy and intuitive..

Edited July 10, 2014 by BlackPixxel

[Greenfist 1863]

Yeah, this thread has been going around in circles for a while now. Can't we just agree that we disagree and let BIS sort it out? :)

I also disagree the notion that the system is irrational. I think it's very rational and there's nothing arbitrary about it.

After playing for a few hours with it, I don't have any trouble estimating my condition. I don't get surprised by the fact that suddenly I can't hit the broad side of a barn anymore.

[seba1976 98]

Yeah, this thread has been going around in circles for a while now. Can't we just agree that we disagree and let BIS sort it out? :)

I also disagree the notion that the system is irrational. I think it's very rational and there's nothing arbitrary about it.

After playing for a few hours with it, I don't have any trouble estimating my condition. I don't get surprised by the fact that suddenly I can't hit the broad side of a barn anymore.

Agreed with letting BIS to decide. They will estimate based on how much player base will like/dislike the features. I already did a fatigue bar for my missions, just in case ;)

[frostwyrm333 1]

I like the addition of fatigue but it can't stay like this.

The way it is now generic circular motion applied on the gun, the accuracy is the same.

Also, you can still hit the target accurately if you wait until the gun positions itself on the enemy. I don't think that this is the intended behaviour.

Same thing for launchers, just look from the 3rd person, just silly.

I'm not an expert on weapon handling but that motion be more vertical than horizontal, shouldn't it?

[vegeta897 13]

Also, you can still hit the target accurately if you wait until the gun positions itself on the enemy. I don't think that this is the intended behaviour.

That's always been how shooting with weapon sway worked. I'm not sure how similar it is to shooting in real life with an unstable weapon, but I don't see any alternative in a videogame, other than artificial dispersion which is very bad.

[seba1976 98]

That's always been how shooting with weapon sway worked. I'm not sure how similar it is to shooting in real life with an unstable weapon, but I don't see any alternative in a videogame, other than artificial dispersion which is very bad.

I was thinking the same thing. Honestly, I don't know which one I would prefer. But if I had to choose one, I would probably end up choosing no sway, bullet dispersion only, just because it would take the mini game of aiming out of the way, and still give you the same result, of not being able to hit were you want all the time. I simply see no relation between the skills required to be a good shooter in real life, and the skills required to shoot with a mouse and a keyboard.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

I was thinking the same thing. Honestly, I don't know which one I would prefer. But if I had to choose one, I would probably end up choosing no sway, bullet dispersion only, just because it would take the mini game of aiming out of the way, and still give you the same result, of not being able to hit were you want all the time. I simply see no relation between the skills required to be a good shooter in real life, and the skills required to shoot with a mouse and a keyboard.

yes lets remove all skill element from the game so it's literally rolling a dice every time you fire. this is fun and intuitive

[-Coulum- 35]

I simply see no relation between the skills required to be a good shooter in real life, and the skills required to shoot with a mouse and a keyboard.

Patience concentration and timing. I know its still not even 10% of what is required to shoot well in real life but it is certainly closer than a random dispersion. Don't get me wrong, the dispersion would be fine enough, but sway is more immersive, and believable/realistic to me, and makes shooting much more interesting. I guess you don't share the same opinion.

The sway gives you one more challenge to master. It feels so much more rewarding getting a kill shot on a distant running enemy than in any other game I've played because it actually takes effort to do so.

[vegeta897 13]

I definitely enjoy the challenge of shooting in Arma, and would hate if it were replaced with artificially increased dispersion. Shooting a distant target with RNG would just be frustrating as well as boring. Click click click click hope for a lucky RNG. Bleh. I don't care how close Arma's way matches to real life, I enjoy the challenge and the benefits it offers. The actual number of times I hit my target may be exactly the same as with RNG, but the key is how it's done. Like Coulum says, there's a bit of patience, concentration, and timing in play. I actually feel skillful when I land a shot, whereas there is no skill in RNG.

[papy.rabbit.08 0]

There has probably been a big debate about this subject that I haven't followed, and I know it is on the dev branch, but I mean seriously O.O

It is unplayable! Take a guy with a big bag (like in the showcase Armed Assault) after one bullet you get, you move the weapon like if you were playing golf with the rifle... I wanted to upload a video, but I don't have the energy anymore.

[seba1976 98]

There has probably been a big debate about this subject that I haven't followed, and I know it is on the dev branch, but I mean seriously O.O

It is unplayable! Take a guy with a big bag (like in the showcase Armed Assault) after one bullet you get, you move the weapon like if you were playing golf with the rifle... I wanted to upload a video, but I don't have the energy anymore.

I hear you. Yes there was a big debate. The ones for the new system won. Let's see how the player base take the change once it hit stable branch. I simpatize with you, believe me :).

[papy.rabbit.08 0]

So here it is, I finally put it... So people do not tell me that I ran a lot before, because it is not the case. I only have a big bag and got a bullet :/
Absolutely no fun with that...

[-Coulum- 35]

So here it is, I finally put it... So people do not tell me that I ran a lot before, because it is not the case. I only have a big bag and got a bullet :/

bolded key works. "I only caught a bullet in the arm, why is my aim so bad?!". I suggest you try not to get shot next time. Arma hasn't exactly been known to be a forgiving game. As it happens you can still use a FAK and pretty much regain your aiming ability (a feature which I am not too happy about - should only be available to medics).

[mamasan8 11]

Big/medium bag on your back, get wounded once, use a FAK, breath like a horse forever. Lie down, move forward 1 metre, breathing like a horse again for a minute.

Realistic? I don't think so.

I'm contemplating playing my missions only and disabling fatigue all together.

I see the problem as 2 problems. First, having to empty a clip into enemy infantry to kill em which leads to us packing 30 clips of ammo (wasnt an issue in OFP etc, 8 clips lasted forever). Second, wasting a lot of ammo because it only takes AI to shoot you 2-3 times max to kill you so its best to go FULL AUTO to get off as many shots as possible, hopefully before you die.

And then theres fatigue because of the ammo issue, to try and balance it or whatever.

First, you could make clips weigh more so we can't pack 100 of em. Second, armor penetration/explosive bullets should be introduced (as default bullets).

Now we wouldn't have to pack our bags full with ammo like packmules.

Just look at armor development and bullet/missile development. Anyone comes up with an armor that stops current bullets/missiles, someone comes up with bullets/missiles that penetrate the new armor just as easily as previous generations. They go hand in hand.