"Opening up Arma 3 to paid user-made content" - How?

[Tonci87 163]

What REALLY bothers me is lack of Bohemia's response to current situation.

In my opinion it means they want to take part in it (who would say "no" to free money of other's work?), but are afraid of beign caught in current clusterfuck, as there's no guaranty Valve's model will stay.

They already announced they will, look it up in the last OPREP. Honestly if they do this then Arma 3 will have been the last Arma for me. Mods are what makes ths game really playable and enjoyable for me and way too often Mods have been incompatible with each other or stoped working after an Update. I won´t pay cash for that.

[gibonez 18]

Yea I can safely say I will never ever pay for a mod.

I will only pay for professional products made by Professional developers with the full knowledge that said product will be professionally supported post launch and any kinks will be ironed out.

If a modder wants to get paid then start a kick starter or any other crowd funding venture and if the proposed project pipes my interest I would gladly fund it so that it too can become a professional product.

However paying for mods with varying degrees of quality and extremely high possibilities of incompatibility with other mods Yea never going to happen. This whole ordeal just screams Valve finding new ways to raise their profits while having to do little work themselves.

[kireta21 13]

Last OPREP is from April 15th, and you have to admit situation kind of changed last few days.

Also Content Licensing as they call it is basically about buying mods by BIS to include them into official releases, which is fairy different from Steam's approach where anyone can sell anything as long as Valve gets money

[Corvinus 35]

Then perhaps the best course of action is for perhaps addonmakers to provide their own means for people to offer donations.

Agreed. At least with donations I can be sure that the most part of my money is going directly to support an addonmaker.

[teilx 4]

Also Content Licensing as they call it is basically about buying mods by BIS to include them into official releases, which is fairy different from Steam's approach where anyone can sell anything as long as Valve gets money

Dean Hall as example said his revenue was much less as Valve's approach ....xD on the other hand his mod based 95% more or less on BI's work

Edited April 25, 2015 by TeilX

[gibonez 18]

Last OPREP is from April 15th, and you have to admit situation kind of changed last few days.

Also Content Licensing as they call it is basically about buying mods by BIS to include them into official releases, which is fairy different from Steam's approach where anyone can sell anything as long as Valve gets money

Ok If BI did approach monetizing mods in a similiar fashion to Tripwire Interactive then great.

Make the mod team an offer to turn their mod into an official expansion of sorts, work in close conjunction with the mod team to bring the mod up to professional standards, then officially release the expansion for a fair price.

This both allows the mod team to make some money off their creation if they so choose to, allows the mod team to have a very credible bulletin in their portfolio, and most importantly ensures the end product is that of quality coming in line with the vanilla offerings.

Simply copying the current marketplace method that skyrim has however would be disastrous.

[Macser 776]

This has always been inching it's way towards the modding scene.It shouldn't be surprising.

Look.Not all modders are going to buy into this.Especially in it's current form.Wait and watch how it pans out.In the mean time appreciate what free content you have access to.Keep tempers in check.I know things are generally more respectful around here,but let's make sure there's none of that abusive nonsense that's been taking place on steam.

If a modder wants to sell their content that's their right.Leave it alone.Don't buy it if you feel it's not worth it.I see a danger of people being demonised because of their choices on this matter.That's not acceptable.Use the most viable weapon you have.Disposable income.Don't spend it.Nothing sends a message more clearly to any company than that.

I'm not saying anyone here is attempting it.But it's worth pointing out anyway.Going after modders is only going to have one effect.Pushing them out of the scene altogether.Looking around the net at the moment,I'd have second thoughts about getting into it,if I was interested.

Yea I can safely say I will never ever pay for a mod.

I will only pay for professional products made by Professional developers with the full knowledge that said product will be professionally supported post launch and any kinks will be ironed out.

With respect,who exactly are you addressing that comment to?To BI or to the many modders here?Because if it's the latter then that sounds like,"What you do is sub standard.The only reason I like it is because it's free".

It's always been free for two reasons.Licensing and the fact modders wanted it that way.Not to keep users happy.

[enex 11]

That sounds great on the paper but in practice mods are either scripted or (considering models) varying levels of quality in comparison

to Vannila arma.Revive function and End game groups for example is yet to be built in engine which makes me think that turning script into

in engine features takes time and workforce.That in conjunction with already planned (expansion) new terrain, features and weapons, 3d editor,

mod management&arma3 launcher to name few, only developers and project lead can tell if that is feasible.

[chortles 263]

Ok If BI did approach monetizing mods in a similiar fashion to Tripwire Interactive then great.

Only catch the Internet crapstorm when they don't approach the mods that community vocalists want them to. :rolleyes: Still, this is pretty valuable for BI to have taken a wait-and-see approach instead of leading like they did with early access...

[cosmic10r 2331]

In a cost reward analysis, I personally feel that there is far more that can go wrong then is worth the potential gain... imo... it will lead to more broken projects and dust ups...

One of the things that makes the arma community special in my opinion is how it is one of the last bastions of Modding and civil discourse. Majority of modders are insanely helpful and friendly and I think this would disappear faster with the organized monetization of mods

[Macser 776]

Ok.Why do you feel that way?If this is a new situation then what's the basis for comparison? :)

Why do you assume that everyone who was previously nice and helpful,will suddenly become

evil and callous?

[soulis6 24]

please stop talking out of your ass, you're making a foul out of yourself. Autodesk has a similar userbase with adobe. for both adobe and adsk, most plugins, scripts and other similar tools are NOT sold on a set marketplace similar to steam, but on a really wide range of marketplaces (from personal websites, blogs etc), and neither autodesk or adobe takes a cut out of any of it.

I apologize if i'm mistaken, but that appears to me exactly what happens on those other stores. If you sell an plugin or add on on CreativeCrash for example, they take 55% of your sales.

SECTION 3 - ROYALTIES 3.1 Royalty. Licensor shall be entitled to a “Royalty†equal to fifty-five percent (55%) Less Transaction Fee, of (a) the Sales Revenue of all Licensed Products sold by CC Marketplace during the Term hereof and (b) CC Marketplace’s net royalty income received from any sublicensee of CC Marketplace during the Term hereof, subject to the terms and conditions set forth in this Section

Adobe Exchange appears to me to be the same, they just don't state what the percentage is up front. I don't know what happens with personal websites, but it's possible the potential customer base is small enough that they just don't care.

---------- Post added at 18:52 ---------- Previous post was at 18:48 ----------

Ok.Why do you feel that way?If this is a new situation then what's the basis for comparison? :)

Why do you assume that everyone who was previously nice and helpful,will suddenly become

evil and callous?

Exactly. People are still going to be friendly and helpful, it's not going to suddenly change. Even if you put money and competition into the situation, you would be wanting to help other people out because there will come a time when you need some help from those same people too.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Soulis6

[cosmic10r 2331]

Ok.Why do you feel that way?If this is a new situation then what's the basis for comparison? :)

Why do you assume that everyone who was previously nice and helpful,will suddenly become

evil and callous?

People putting money before good form is not a new situation and there would be examples of this since the beginning of the monetary system. .. if you are totally unaware of how people behave around money then there is not much more I can say...

The idea that somehow it will remain as it was and is in the community is a utopian ideal in my book...

It will be interesting to see how long before encrypted pbos are the norm. Modders would be less likely to share info because they feel other people are profiting from their help... stuff like that...

Sure it may lead to a couple of nice mods but the community as a whole will never go back to being the same... oh... and it won't be an overnight revolution. .. the help and assistance will slowly decline in direct correlation to how many issues arise from the small percentage who take advantage...

Funny how life can make one cynical

.

[roshnak 41]

I apologize if i'm mistaken, but that appears to me exactly what happens on those other stores. If you sell an plugin or add on on CreativeCrash for example, they take 55% of your sales.

You're mistaken.

First of all, they don't take 55% of your sales, they give you 55% of what they sell of your product. You are the licensor. They are the licensee. You are granting them the license to sell your product, and they are paying you a royalty of 55%.

Second of all, if someone buys a Photoshop plugin from CreativeCrash, 0% of that money goes to Adobe as the creator of Photoshop.

3.4 Except for the foregoing, there are no other royalties, fees or any other compensation payable by CC Marketplace to Licensor or any third party under this Agreement.

And in no case is a creator obligated to sell their product through either CreativeCrash or Adobe Exchange. They can sell their product from their own website and not owe anyone else any money at all.

Furthermore, if you are going to draw parallels to paid content through Steam Workshop, CreativeCrash and Adobe Exchange would be Valve in that scenario -- the distributor or seller of the product. Not Bohemia or ZeniMax or Bethesda.

Edited April 25, 2015 by roshnak

[Tonci87 163]

Ok.Why do you feel that way?If this is a new situation then what's the basis for comparison? :)

Why do you assume that everyone who was previously nice and helpful,will suddenly become

evil and callous?

Because Money. Seriously, just look at Skyrim, a formerly grand, and very friendly and helpfull modding community, now tearing itself apart. People stealing stuff left and right, other people going after other people because they used some of their stuff in a mod they are now asking money for etc. It´s one giant shitstorm, and I really don´t want that shitstorm to come to our community or any other.

Just take soundmodding as an example, we don´t have a lot of that stuff, do we? Up until now most soundmodders have been generally helpfull towards each other, telling each other how to do things, especially to newcomers. You bring money into that and another soundmod isn´t just "another taste" anymore, it´s competition. You wouldn´t help your competition, would you?

In conclusion: Money makes sure that you have a smaller variety of mods, it makes it much harder for newcomers to get into modding and in the end you have mods of lesser quality because modders aren´t helping each other out when needed.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Tonci87

[[evo] dan 79]

Wasn't the A2 ACR DLC based on a mod? I paid for that but never remember it being fixed.

[Macser 776]

People putting money before good form is not a new situation and there would be examples of this since the beginning of the monetary system. .. if you are totally unaware of how people behave around money then there is not much more I can say...

I don't know you.And you don't know me.I've written nothing to warrant being spoken to like I'm an idiot.I've met plenty of people who revere money,and make it their life's work to accumulate as much as possible.Sometimes to the detriment of others.And I'm not talking about video games.I mean genuinely nasty people.

But I've met many who view it as what it is.A means to facilitate a living.And nothing more.

A thing.And a secondary one at that.

I'm not talking about the monetary system though.I'm talking about a very specific group of people.

And as it relates to this group,it is a new situation.That's why it's causing so much angst.

Blender,for example,has always been open source.It still is.Despite the fact that paid addons and assets(Extensions,Scripts) now exist.Some of the people who sell their content,be it educational or otherwise,continue to help the community they grew from.It's a different model from what I can see.But the point is that it didn't disintegrate.And people haven't devolved into horrible greedy monsters.

You wouldn't help your competition,would you?

You won't believe me.But yes I would.By denying even "competitors" you seek to isolate yourself.And it's only information.You can't share skill or innate talent.You learn one and have the other.More technical information may help you with certain aspects of modding.But if you're only capable of basic things,it won't be much use.And if you're more advanced you'll likely find a way to get the results you want.Modders have been hiding "trade secrets" for years.That won't stop.It doesn't make them horrible people.

And as amazing as it seems people who earn money from past-times and professions do still share what

they know.

Think about the concept you're putting forward.That a lot of the people here are nasty already.And the only

reason they haven't started cutting the legs from under each other is because there was no possibility of earning money from it.But now that the opportunity has materialised,it's open season?

As for newcomers,you only need a couple of skilled and/or talented people willing to share knowledge openly.

Literally a handful.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Maczer

[cosmic10r 2331]

I don't know you.And you don't know me.I've written nothing to warrant being spoken to like I'm an idiot.I've met plenty of people who revere money,and make it their life's work to accumulate as much as possible.Sometimes to the detriment of others.And I'm not talking about video games.I mean genuinely nasty people.

But I've met many who view it as what it is.A means to facilitate a living.And nothing more.

A thing.And a secondary one at that.

I'm not talking about the monetary system though.I'm talking about a very specific group of people.

And as it relates to this group,it is a new situation.That's why it's causing so much angst.

Blender,for example,has always been open source.It still is.Despite the fact that paid addons now exist.Some of the people who sell their content,be it educational or otherwise,continue to help the community they grew from.It's a different model from what I can see.But the point is that it didn't disintegrate.And people haven't devolved into horrible greedy monsters.

You won't believe me.But yes I would.By denying even "competitors" you seek to isolate yourself.And it's only information.You can't share skill or innate talent.You learn one and have the other.More technical information may help you with certain aspects of modding.But if you're only capable of basic things,it won't help.And if you're more advanced you'll likely find a way to get the results you want.Modders have been hiding "trade secrets" for years.That won't stop.It doesn't make them horrible people.

And as amazing as it seems people who earn money from past-times and professions do still share what

they know.

Think about the concept you're putting forward.That a lot of the people here are nasty already.And the only

reason they haven't started cutting the legs from under each other is because there was no possibility of earning money from it.But now that the opportunity has materialised,it's open season?

As for newcomers,you only need a couple of skilled and/or talented people willing to share knowledge openly.

Literally a handful.

Apologies... didn't mean it to be taken thst harshly. Was more a statement of fact then an outright attack so I apologize that it seemed that way.

And I agree with your points up to this point...

I agree it will not turn otherwise good people into horrible people... but it will give those horrible people a vehicle to exploit which will in turn tear the free mod community up to a certain extent. The thing that turns it south us that the world has a tendency to organize itself around the lowest common denominator and as such... once the exploits happen... we all lose...

An example would be gun control... a very low number of people do something... and as a result... people who would never do such a thing are lumped into those rules...

Not sure if you saw the a3life fiasco but that should be the small window into what that will look like...

I totally concur with a lot of your points but I would say the world would look a lot different if people did indeed take the high road as often as we are assuming they will here...

I would also say the angst is less about it being new and it having a lot more to do with the potential pitfalls that many of us see...

Edited April 25, 2015 by CosmiC10R

[gibonez 18]

http://www.vg247.com/2015/04/25/killing-floor-2-mods-pc-steam/

I so love tripwire.

[Chairborne 2594]

You won't believe me.But yes I would.By denying even "competitors" you seek to isolate yourself.And it's only information.You can't share skill or innate talent.You learn one and have the other.More technical information may help you with certain aspects of modding.But if you're only capable of basic things,it won't be much use.And if you're more advanced you'll likely find a way to get the results you want.Modders have been hiding "trade secrets" for years.That won't stop.It doesn't make them horrible people.

When you start putting together bits of information from different sources you can put together a significant amount of knowledge, and that has some monetary value like it or not, your statement proves how much that is important.

Instead of having a solution already good and done you have to spend time for something others already have.

Those "trade secrets" you refer to are exactly what you do not share with competition, and what potentially give you an advantage.

If this happens already when no money is involved how is this going to get any better with monetization?

Maybe it's not you but someone else, still that is going to happen more often than not.

Think about the concept you're putting forward.That a lot of the people here are nasty already.And the only

reason they haven't started cutting the legs from under each other is because there was no possibility of earning money from it.But now that the opportunity has materialised,it's open season?

We're already at each other's throat just by talking about the POSSIBILITY of monetization happening, can you explain to me how this is going to be any better when monetization comes?

I see this only deteriorating.

[Macser 776]

@CosmiC10R

Ok.No harm intended on either side.Communication by text is tricky at times.

It can be hard to get the emotion behind the words.I sounded angrier than I was. :)

Some people will take advantage of the opportunity.That's true.But some will not.There will be some individuals who exploit it at the expense of others.But they'll reveal themselves by doing so.And of course some may earn a bit of money,and still share what they know.And may even continue to share some assets free of charge.

A marketplace may reduce the size of the open community.But sometimes a smaller community is stronger.

Genuine,passionate modders are not here simply as a result of the game's popularity.Or how large the following is.

That's a welcome bonus I think.

[chrisb 196]

I don't know you.And you don't know me.I've written nothing to warrant being spoken to like I'm an idiot.I've met plenty of people who revere money,and make it their life's work to accumulate as much as possible.Sometimes to the detriment of others.And I'm not talking about video games.I mean genuinely nasty people.

But I've met many who view it as what it is.A means to facilitate a living.And nothing more.

A thing.And a secondary one at that.

I'm not talking about the monetary system though.I'm talking about a very specific group of people.

And as it relates to this group,it is a new situation.That's why it's causing so much angst.

Blender,for example,has always been open source.It still is.Despite the fact that paid addons and assets(Extensions,Scripts) now exist.Some of the people who sell their content,be it educational or otherwise,continue to help the community they grew from.It's a different model from what I can see.But the point is that it didn't disintegrate.And people haven't devolved into horrible greedy monsters.

You won't believe me.But yes I would.By denying even "competitors" you seek to isolate yourself.And it's only information.You can't share skill or innate talent.You learn one and have the other.More technical information may help you with certain aspects of modding.But if you're only capable of basic things,it won't be much use.And if you're more advanced you'll likely find a way to get the results you want.Modders have been hiding "trade secrets" for years.That won't stop.It doesn't make them horrible people.

And as amazing as it seems people who earn money from past-times and professions do still share what

they know.

Think about the concept you're putting forward.That a lot of the people here are nasty already.And the only

reason they haven't started cutting the legs from under each other is because there was no possibility of earning money from it.But now that the opportunity has materialised,it's open season?

As for newcomers,you only need a couple of skilled and/or talented people willing to share knowledge openly.

Literally a handful.

Very good post.

[Tonci87 163]

@CosmiC10R

Ok.No harm intended on either side.Communication by text is tricky at times.

It can be hard to get the emotion behind the words.I sounded angrier than I was. :)

Some people will take advantage of the opportunity.That's true.But some will not.There will be some individuals who exploit it at the expense of others.But they'll reveal themselves by doing so.And of course some may earn a bit of money,and still share what they know.And may even continue to share some assets free of charge.

A marketplace may reduce the size of the open community.But sometimes a smaller community is stronger.

Genuine,passionate modders are not here simply as a result of the game's popularity.Or how large the following is.

That's a welcome bonus I think.

You have a very optimistic view of the whole thing..... If you really want to see what a non curated system can lead to just check the windows app store. Full of rip offs, outright stolen stuff, broken stuff, quick cashgrabs, no support etc.

Humans are humans, so it´s always safer to assume the worst once money get´s into the game because it usually happens.

[probad 44]

All I hear in here are a bunch of leeches breaking into tears over the thought of their free lunches going away.

Admit it, you can come up with 1000 different excuses in the name of Humanity and Community and Welfare and all these feelgood ideas but at the end of the day you're just thinking about your own wallet and how you wouldn't like to have to pay a dime for the effort everyone else has to go to.

You think you're cynical? Then you should know better -- everything good in this world has to be paid for in blood and tears, and money is the least painful substitute.

Otherwise you're all filthy hypocrites.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Probad

[cosmic10r 2331]

@CosmiC10R

Ok.No harm intended on either side.Communication by text is tricky at times.

It can be hard to get the emotion behind the words.I sounded angrier than I was. :)

Some people will take advantage of the opportunity.That's true.But some will not.There will be some individuals who exploit it at the expense of others.But they'll reveal themselves by doing so.And of course some may earn a bit of money,and still share what they know.And may even continue to share some assets free of charge.

A marketplace may reduce the size of the open community.But sometimes a smaller community is stronger.

Genuine,passionate modders are not here simply as a result of the game's popularity.Or how large the following is.

That's a welcome bonus I think.

And I genuinely hope I would be wrong... this is one community thst I would hate to see go that route...

However... watching manw and a3life... watching tonics code getting beaten like a dead horse and little to no respect for his wishes...

As tonci87 has pointed out with skyrim... we have examples... it didn't go well...

Ask yourself why chrisBs all powerful Kai mod was never released despite his protestations of how advanced it is lol

You do indeed have more optimism for humanity then I do... and that is to be commended. I think you would need to go to people like tonic and get there take rather then us all hope it's gonna be great ;)