Weapon sway

[CaptainObvious 95]

All of it, because your weapon does not act like your standing on a rocking ship. It feels like your weapon is being influenced by realistic factors rather than unrealistic artificail factors.

I'm against it, it's worse for gameplay and aiming thru sights doesn't look like what VBS2 has, sure it's different than what we have now, but it doesn't look any more real, only thing I'd like to have from it is the more up-down type sway.

[Smurf 12]

Watch this, or more importantly, HEAR this:

Low stamina:

Heavy breathing sounds, less up-down movement but the aim if more unstable in overall, somewhat like the sway is now in Arma. Holding breath only on a short period of time.

Full stamina:

Breathing is slower, up-down movement is greater but slower, more stable and predictable. Can hold breath for longer.

[NordKindchen 12]

Weapon Sway can be altered. TLR mod did this.

All we need is a mod that improves it. I think Red Orchestra 2 is a brilliant example of how to do weapon sway and recoil right!

Its ridiculous how the weapon flys up into the air when you shoot automatic in Arma 3!

First: The recoil of the weapon rather goes into the shoulder than up in the air.

Second: IRL the gun will ALLWAYS go back into somehow the same position. Its called GRAVITY!

Third: Theres plenty of example videos here in the forums. Just yesterday I saw a

They prove that guns act in a complete other way than in Arma3.

If someone can teach me the basics of how to alter the recoil I would put some time into it.

Best regards

[mjolnir66 48]

Weapon Sway can be altered. TLR mod did this.

All we need is a mod that improves it. I think Red Orchestra 2 is a brilliant example of how to do weapon sway and recoil right!

Its ridiculous how the weapon flys up into the air when you shoot automatic in Arma 3!

First: The recoil of the weapon rather goes into the shoulder than up in the air.

Second: IRL the gun will ALLWAYS go back into somehow the same position. Its called GRAVITY!

Third: Theres plenty of example videos here in the forums. Just yesterday I saw a

They prove that guns act in a complete other way than in Arma3.

1. When you shoot automatic irl, the weapon goes up and right generally. It does go back into the shoulder, but if you push your shoulder back it rolls up and outwards.

2. The only time I'll ever fire shots quicker than 1 a second (IRL that is) is below 50m. Above that and it takes around a second to get the weapon pointed back in the right place. It most certainly doesn't drop into the same position as it was before.

3. The way weapons act currently is far more realistic than in any other game I've ever seen, and mirror my experiences very accurately. Stuff like Red Orchestra don't give enough sway or recoil at all.

[MavericK96 0]

Here's VBS2 sway - it far larger than arma 3's

(11:25 - 11:50)

What? It looks way more stable than ArmA 3's default sway to me.

[Greenfist 1863]

Second: IRL the gun will ALLWAYS go back into somehow the same position. Its called GRAVITY!

:D It has (almost) nothing to do with gravity. Before firing you just lock your muscles and posture to a certain stance so after the gun stops squirming when you release the trigger, you automatically pull the gun roughly to it's initial position.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Greenfist

[gatordev 215]

I hate getting dragged into these threads, but...

3. The way weapons act currently is far more realistic than in any other game I've ever seen, and mirror my experiences very accurately. Stuff like Red Orchestra don't give enough sway or recoil at all.

Really? When you're lying prone, with no stress, completely supported, your weapon (IRL) wanders 10+ MILS (!) up? Then *might* come back down (in 10-15 seconds...not with your breathing) 6-8 MILS? Or...

When you're kneeling against a barricade with a magnified optic on a gun (again, IRL), your weapon will drift 10-15 MILS off target?

None of that happens for me (IRL), but it sure as heck happens in the vanilla game. I can live with vanilla recoil (I don't think it's 100%, but I can live with it), but weapon sway has always been out to lunch for me.

[mjolnir66 48]

I hate getting dragged into these threads, but...

Really? When you're lying prone, with no stress, completely supported, your weapon (IRL) wanders 10+ MILS (!) up? Then *might* come back down (in 10-15 seconds...not with your breathing) 6-8 MILS? Or...

When you're kneeling against a barricade with a magnified optic on a gun (again, IRL), your weapon will drift 10-15 MILS off target?

None of that happens for me (IRL), but it sure as heck happens in the vanilla game. I can live with vanilla recoil (I don't think it's 100%, but I can live with it), but weapon sway has always been out to lunch for me.

I've never had the first one happen in game and I've definitely had the second one happen in real life.

[infiltrator_2k 29]

Been playing/loving BIS games since OPF demo, so I know a little whereof I speak...

I'm sadly finding the infantry experience in A3 more frustrating than fun. The excessive weapon sway means I feel I'm controlling a heavy vehicle rather than a human being. Long range engagements aren't so bad, as you have time to go prone, but urban combat is ruined as you are constantly battling the excessive sway, which merely feels like a phoney device to prevent run-n-gun COD style combat.

While I don't - repeat DO NOT - want superhuman COD style gameplay, I really think the sway needs to be dialed back a lot. Or at least, it should increase more gradually the longer the weapon is held in one position. At the moment, CQB in A3 Beta is less about reflexes and adrenaline and more about staying put and hoping targets appear (authentic perhaps, but boring). When I move into a town I really need the combat to be fast, furious and terrifying, not a drawn-out game of hide-and-seek.

O.T.: Love Altis though - unbelievably beautiful, especially at magic hour :icon_hug:

OK, I've not read the numerous threads the original post has attracted but this is my take on it. I'll start by stating the obvious - ArmA is more of a simulator than a game. It's what I find appealing about the simulator/game. I'm an ex-infanteer and I've done hour upon hour of weapons training, and to claim "weapon sway is ridiculous" is itself a ridiculous statement. Anyone who's ran up and down a terrain laden with a Bergen, webbing and a rifle will know that unless you've led down in the prone position and got your breath back your weapon will be all over the place. If you fire without regaining your breath and composure you won't be able to hit a farm door.

The weapon sway is in my opinion very forgiving, as the development team have given us super fit soldiers who's heart rate normalises in record time. In the real world if you had physically done what your character has done you wouldn't even be able to focus on the target through the adenine pumping through your system and the sweat pouring down your brow into your eyes.

The bottom line is accept ArmA for its take on realism or go back to the console, because you can't have it both ways. Simulation or arcade, it's one or the other.

[Greenfist 1863]

Oh look. They changed the sway.

Anyone care to compare to previous state?

- Swapped weapon sway axes for small radius

- Slightly decreased weapon sway in crouch

- Slightly increased weapon sway in prone

[NordKindchen 12]

you can see that the gun moves back down with a quick fierce push after each salvo.

Do this in A3 and your gun will be lined up with the moon.

One has to differentiate between recoil, sway, and drop down after shooting.

While recoil and sway as discussed before need some tweaking too (for example a sway that is correlating to the breathing and many people said that the recoil is a few mils to high) the biggest problem is the drop down after shooting.

There just isnt any drop down. I admit I havent shot real guns (only because its not allowed in my country) but I am very interested in guns and watched a hell lot of videos to get a look on the details of recoil, sway etc. Also I am shooting airsoft guns (laughable I know) but at least I get a feeling for weapon sway through that.

So yes: The gun pushes up while shooting: thats recoil. But after that it needs to get down again! And thats whats totally lacking in Arma 3!

Oh and I

Of course not the way you would shoot a gun in a fight. But you can see what I am talking about!

In Arma 3 the gun would stand still in an angle of 15% after the shot. In real life(Oh wonder) gravitiy kicks in and pulls the rifle back down.

[Greenfist 1863]

In your first video it looks like the gun first pulls up a lot but then he starts pulling down harder. It's no different to the game. :confused: In the game you just move your mouse! The return isn't magic! :)

And if you absolutely positively have to shoot in full auto and standing up, you're not supposed to hit anything further than 40m away anyway. So what difference does the return make?

Just tried the new sway quickly and it feels more natural now. Changelog doesn't mention it but I feel it is more predictable and lesser on the x-axis, right?

Edited November 12, 2013 by Greenfist

[NordKindchen 12]

I dont want to be able to shoot full auto over huge distances.

I want the guns to feel real.

And I cant see what you describe in the video. I see him press his shoulder into the gun hardly and after releasing the trigger this lets the gun push down fiercly.

Moving the mouse to do what would happen automatically is the factor that I am talking about.

You should compensate with the mouse for the sway, recoil and for the error created by the drop down. But you should not take over the role of common mechanical laws and gravity.

I have to point out again: I am fine with big recoil and big sway (if the current implementation is realistic may be discussed later on - I wouldnt mind seeing it as real) but the drop down is just plain wrong.

[Greenfist 1863]

No offense, but you wan't the guns to feel real while you've never shot one? :)

"Lets the gun push down"? The reason why the gun goes back down is because he's pulling it down hard. Just the same as in game when you try to fight the recoil by pushing the mouse down. When the firing stops, you're still pushing the muzzle down so it drops an inch quickly after you release the trigger.

All the times I've shot the AK-47's cousin on full auto, this is exactly what I've experienced. I don't know if the guns in the game should be different since I have no experience in these more modern year 2035 guns.

ps. this recoil discussion seems a bit offtopic.

edit. I do see your point, NordKindchen, but I don't think it's possible to return the gun more automatically to its initial position because of the way the engine works. Recoil just changes the direction of the muzzle, it doesn't know where the gun was pointed originally especially after multiple shots in full auto. :(

Edited November 12, 2013 by Greenfist

[danil-ch 165]

What? It looks way more stable than ArmA 3's default sway to me.

Because on the video is old version of VBS2 which uses arma 1 recoil system.

[NeuroFunker 11]

the ar-15 video, it's pretty much a size of smg, like scorpion or vermin, that guns actually feel the same in game, not much of recoil in game. I love mk20 for that, you can shoot shole mag in to a single target. In real life, you have to push weapon down, while shooting full auto, to not the weapon raise to the sky, same in game, don't be lazy to push your gun down with the mouse, while shooting full auto, you'll achive similar results likeon the videos.

[NordKindchen 12]

@Greenfist

Dont worry I wont feel offended=)

What you described in your answer was what I described as "recoil". Yes you should be forced to compensate for the recoil with the movement of your mouse.

But after that the weapon should drop down again.

Basically its this what I mean: Shoot full auto with your gun in Arma 3 while in 3rd person view and dont compensate for the recoil with your mouse. Stop after the magazine is empty.

Now look where your gun is pointing. It will most likely be pointed at some of our planetary neighbours.

Now in real live at this point the gun would drop down. But in A3 it doesnt.

Thats the one thing I am talking about. Weapons dont stay in 45° angles if you dont force them to.

Its completely ok to have the gun pointed to the sky while shooting full auto and while not compensating for recoil. However after you stop shooting the gun should fall down again.

Edit: But I just saw your "edit" and I think we are both on the same side now=)

Best regards!

[-Coulum- 35]

Nord, regarding recoil, the argument against your's is that in all those vids the shooter is doing something to minimize the muzzle rise. In arma that equates to pulling the mouse down. I know that's not natural, but really its about the best we can get in a video game - not saying recoil is perfect or anything but I think its one of those things it would be better to just learn how to deal with then try to change - because once you do i think the results are pretty good in comparison to reality.

What? It looks way more stable than ArmA 3's default sway to me.

That's probably due with the fact that its iron sights - when most people complain about sway its when looking through magnification which seemingly magnifies the sway (it is the same sway though). VBS2 sway is greater especially when fatigued, it will put you a good five metres of target at 100m at its worst. That's alot more than arma sway at its worst. VBS to is just more predictable.

But really you shouldn't be trying to accurately shoot without holding breath beyond 200m anyways so they both achieve their goal.

looking forward to trying the new sway today.

OK, I've not read the numerous threads the original post has attracted but this is my take on it. I'll start by stating the obvious - ArmA is more of a simulator than a game. It's what I find appealing about the simulator/game. I'm an ex-infanteer and I've done hour upon hour of weapons training, and to claim "weapon sway is ridiculous" is itself a ridiculous statement. Anyone who's ran up and down a terrain laden with a Bergen, webbing and a rifle will know that unless you've led down in the prone position and got your breath back your weapon will be all over the place. If you fire without regaining your breath and composure you won't be able to hit a farm door.

The weapon sway is in my opinion very forgiving, as the development team have given us super fit soldiers who's heart rate normalises in record time. In the real world if you had physically done what your character has done you wouldn't even be able to focus on the target through the adenine pumping through your system and the sweat pouring down your brow into your eyes.

The bottom line is accept ArmA for its take on realism or go back to the console, because you can't have it both ways. Simulation or arcade, it's one or the other.

Amen

[EDcase 87]

This thread is getting side-tracked... The title is: Weapon Sway

To discuss Recoil, use a different thread please.

[NordKindchen 12]

Argh! Only that I am not talking about the recoil but about the drop down after you stop shooting!!!^^

Its just not right that your weapon hovers in a 60° angle after you stop shooting!;)

But EDcase is right - back on topic

[Greenfist 1863]

That's probably due with the fact that its iron sights - when most people complain about sway its when looking through magnification which seemingly magnifies the sway (it is the same sway though).

This.

With x10 magnification the sway looks 10 times bigger. And standing up it's quite big, as it's supposed to be.

I would recommend everyone to try how steady their aim is. If you don't have scoped assault rifle handy, maybe you have a digital camera with zoom; set zoom to x10 and aim at something 400m away and see how close to the target you can keep it.

[infiltrator_2k 29]

Should had been correctly named "scope drift". Weapon sway sounds as though the weapons erratically swaying around in the wind.. Personally I think BI should take the realism thing a little further and added some of the pesky flies that are attracted by your sweat and buzz around your face sending you to the brink of insanity whilst they have an occasional bite..

So your character is there in the prone position timing is breathing with the enemy scoped ready to take that headshot when he's suddenly bitten on the face and so instinctively slaps himself to be rid of the bug. His eye's now nowhere near the scope and the rifle's closer to the ground than it is to you... Oh yes.... more realism please sir :)

[-Coulum- 35]

With x10 magnification the sway looks 10 times bigger. And standing up it's quite big, as it's supposed to be.

I would recommend everyone to try how steady their aim is. If you don't have scoped assault rifle handy, maybe you have a digital camera with zoom; set zoom to x10 and aim at something 400m away and see how close to the target you can keep it.

Pretty much though a digital zoom doesn't even really do it justice. Best way to realize it is to hold laser pointer steady. At 25m its hard to keep perfectly steady let alone at 400m where error will literally be 16x larger - that three inch twitch suddenly turns into four feet off target. Of course a experienced shooter can do better but they are not superhuman and need to focus to shoot accurately at range. And we do have the hold breath/focus key that pretty much gives you that ability to do exactly that.

Anyhow the new sway is really good in my opinion. Its a bit easier to shoot crouched and a fair bit harder when prone - hold breath/focus actually has a use when prone. In addition the sway is more of an up and down fashion and less side to side making it more predictable. It seems much more like a VBS sway. Overall i think its a bit easier than before but overall more balanced - prone is no longer makes you an uber sniping machine in comparison to the other stances.

NICE JOB BIS!

Now give us weapon resting to be able to further control sway:p

Should had been correctly named "scope drift". Weapon sway sounds as though the weapons erratically swaying around in the wind.. Personally I think BI should take the realism thing a little further and added some of the pesky flies that are attracted by your sweat and buzz around your face sending you to the brink of insanity whilst they have an occasional bite..

So your character is there in the prone position timing is breathing with the enemy scoped ready to take that headshot when he's suddenly bitten on the face and so instinctively slaps himself to be rid of the bug. His eye's now nowhere near the scope and the rifle's closer to the ground than it is to you... Oh yes.... more realism please sir [/Quote]

Ha yeah thats probably taking it a bit far but I get what you mean - there are many many things that can possible screw up shot. If a fly can mess up a shot I can only imagine what the sonic crack of a near miss would do...

[infiltrator_2k 29]

Ha yeah thats probably taking it a bit far but I get what you mean - there are many many things that can possible screw up shot. If a fly can mess up a shot I can only imagine what the sonic crack of a near miss would do...

Absolutely. There are so many factors that can as you say "screw up a shot", and scope drift is only one of many. As I've stated before, ArmA is more of a simulator than a game and I know that the guys at BI have done their research and studied the adverse effects of physical and mental fatigue as well as the anxiety of being in a combat zone - hence the scope drift. It's all very well wanting the scope's reticle to be accurately placed on an enemy after running across terrain and dodging bullets, but in reality, the average soldier would be reluctant to leave the safety of their cover to return fire until he's reassured by his comrades where the fire came from and that the enemy aren't already pointing their rifles directly on his position looking for movement.

Needless to say, in the real world self-preservation makes you think before you act.

[mordeaniischaos 3]

Yeah but even crouching its way harder than what i would expect, i don't want it to be waaay too easy, i don't know if you played A2 but at these distances its hard to hit the target, but you can try and keep adjusting until you eventually hit it, on A3 i have a bad time i don't know if its the sway or the recoil or even both. But i have a bad time as a infantry, especially against AI.

Crouching, in my experience, doesn't make for a steadier weapon by all that much, unless you really hunker down and settle into a stance.

The biggest issue is that the AI doesn't have to deal with the same stuff, and as a result tends to be a much better shot than most if not all players are really capable of being. Except when they are being totally incompetent and can't even shoot in the same direction as the player.

I think weapon handling is fine, but the ability to hold a release of breath to get a temporarily steadier shot (without making me breath like crazy after a couple of moments of steadying/also zooming my view) would be really useful. Otherwise it's the imbalance that frustrates me. Hitting targets at range is hard. It's a part of what makes a firefight so tense in something like ArmA, you have to use a lot of skill and a decent amount of luck to hit at range. In ArmA 3 it's nothing. Back in the A2 days on a map like Clafghan, you regularly had engagements that pushed out to near or beyond the maximum range of most assault rifles. At that point all you could really do was hope you had a .50 or a marksman or at least an MG and just pepper the area near the enemy until you got lucky. Or call in CAS.