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Mandrake

Weapon sway

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Been playing/loving BIS games since OPF demo, so I know a little whereof I speak...

I'm sadly finding the infantry experience in A3 more frustrating than fun. The excessive weapon sway means I feel I'm controlling a heavy vehicle rather than a human being. Long range engagements aren't so bad, as you have time to go prone, but urban combat is ruined as you are constantly battling the excessive sway, which merely feels like a phoney device to prevent run-n-gun COD style combat.

While I don't - repeat DO NOT - want superhuman COD style gameplay, I really think the sway needs to be dialed back a lot. Or at least, it should increase more gradually the longer the weapon is held in one position. At the moment, CQB in A3 Beta is less about reflexes and adrenaline and more about staying put and hoping targets appear (authentic perhaps, but boring). When I move into a town I really need the combat to be fast, furious and terrifying, not a drawn-out game of hide-and-seek.

O.T.: Love Altis though - unbelievably beautiful, especially at magic hour :icon_hug:

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Im having a very hard time making shots connect. Im not sure if its the sway or bugs. Theres been times where a mans entire body was within my swag and it still took several rounds to connect.

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I'm not sure if its the sway either but aiming is way too hard in my opnion, I'm not the best shooter but i have a really hard time when shooting unless i'm prone, sometimes even crouching isn't enough especially comparing A2.

I have no experience with weapons but i don't think that on 100-300m the only good position to shoot is being prone, at least in A2 i could hit people when crouching at these distances.

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I'm not sure if its the sway either but aiming is way too hard in my opnion, I'm not the best shooter but i have a really hard time when shooting unless i'm prone, sometimes even crouching isn't enough especially comparing A2.

I have no experience with weapons but i don't think that on 100-300m the only good position to shoot is being prone, at least in A2 i could hit people when crouching at these distances.

I'm no expert in shooting, but have fired a couple of thousad rounds in shooting ranges, shooting moving targets at a 100 meter mark is difficult, very difficult if you're standing, not to mention 300 meters, the grouping is considerably large at 300 meters even when shooting a still target.

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The weapon sway overall is fine, quite realistic, what is really needed is a well balanced AI that suffers the same sway and imprecisions, weapon resting, more lung capacity (not the actual child version), and well made missions that take in account all factors.

Of course there are some silly things like the binacular sway ...

Edited by VanZant

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I'm no expert in shooting, but have fired a couple of thousad rounds in shooting ranges, shooting moving targets at a 100 meter mark is difficult, very difficult if you're standing, not to mention 300 meters, the grouping is considerably large at 300 meters even when shooting a still target.

Yeah but even crouching its way harder than what i would expect, i don't want it to be waaay too easy, i don't know if you played A2 but at these distances its hard to hit the target, but you can try and keep adjusting until you eventually hit it, on A3 i have a bad time i don't know if its the sway or the recoil or even both. But i have a bad time as a infantry, especially against AI.

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Yeah but even crouching its way harder than what i would expect, i don't want it to be waaay too easy, i don't know if you played A2 but at these distances its hard to hit the target, but you can try and keep adjusting until you eventually hit it, on A3 i have a bad time i don't know if its the sway or the recoil or even both. But i have a bad time as a infantry, especially against AI.

I was only referring to what I know of shooting in real life, at longer ranges it is hard, crouching sure helps quite a bit, but it is still rather shaky position compared to being prone, I don't think it should be different in Arma3.

AI will surely give you a hard time, but I don't think reducing weapon sway or decreasing (currently very moderate I must add) recoil for the player is the right way to deal with the situation.

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I know, i wasn't saying you said wrong or anything like that, i have no experience at all with shooting. Sorry if i was rude or anything like that.

If its really like that then the game is improving, just the AI needs improvement and it already improved a lot from Alpha as i remember them.

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I know, i wasn't saying you said wrong or anything like that, i have no experience at all with shooting. Sorry if i was rude or anything like that.

If its really like that then the game is improving, just the AI needs improvement and it already improved a lot from Alpha as i remember them.

No no, not rude at all, none taken :)

I too think the AI that needs further improvements to be more "man-like", it's quite nice already, but there's always room for improvement.

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I think the main thing is to compare shooting performance to real life instead of previous ArmA games. It might be annoying or even improper in how it accomplishes it, but achieving a real shooting performance is good. I have found that the "hold breath" feature is pretty much required for good shooting. By default it's combo-bound which causes it to be overused and then your character reacts when the short time of use is up which may exaggerate the sway significantly. Separating their key binds so you can aim, breath hold briefly, and fire gives good stability but only for one or two shots in a row before you have to relax and recover.

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Urban combat is no problem for me. Sway makes things really difficult at 100-200m, but it's necessary for gameplay.

The sway is excessive in itself, but remember that you have perfect trigger pulls, every single time. If you were really shooting, the sway would likely be less but you would flinch in anticipation of the recoil, moving the barrel, and then wander off target while you were in the process of squeezing the trigger. None of that happens with a mouse.

Just practice, and don't fear the full-auto mag dump if you need to. I massacred someone through a big stand of bamboo just the other day.

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I think the main thing is to compare shooting performance to real life instead of previous ArmA games..... achieving a real shooting performance is good. I have found that the "hold breath" feature is pretty much required for good shooting. By default it's combo-bound which causes it to be overused and then your character reacts when the short time of use is up which may exaggerate the sway significantly. Separating their key binds so you can aim, breath hold briefly, and fire gives good stability but only for one or two shots in a row before you have to relax and recover.

this + 100

arma3 gives a good feel for real life shooting, lathough when prone you can go full auto with mad accuracy with rifles/smg on someone a bit too easily without being actually supported/bipods. hopefully that'll be remedied one day and ability to support weapon/bipods but it is leagues better.

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I was going to stay out of this thread since there are already several like it and BIS doesn't seem interested in changing it, but...

The sway is excessive in itself, but remember that you have perfect trigger pulls, every single time. If you were really shooting, the sway would likely be less but you would flinch in anticipation of the recoil, moving the barrel, and then wander off target while you were in the process of squeezing the trigger.

That's precisely how you do NOT want to shoot a rifle. You shouldn't be flinching to counter the recoil, you should be reacting to the recoil to put the sight back on target. Part of shooting well is consistent trigger pull (and trigger reset) so you're not jerking the gun all over the place.

I regularly shoot action rifle competitions and part of the course is shooting man-sized steel targets (actually, some are smaller) out to 200m. With a sling, I don't get the sway you see in the game. Without a sling, yeah, I can see the similarity. But nowadays pretty much everyone with a rifle in the military is running a sling, so it's worth including that in the in-game weapon control.

The good thing: there is modularity, so those of who don't like the sway can run one of the mods that adjusts it. And that's why I keep coming back to the OFP/Arma series.

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That's precisely how you do NOT want to shoot a rifle. You shouldn't be flinching to counter the recoil, you should be reacting to the recoil to put the sight back on target. Part of shooting well is consistent trigger pull (and trigger reset) so you're not jerking the gun all over the place.

But people DO flinch in anticipation of the recoil. And they DO have inconsistent trigger pulls. If you are an incredible marksman, the effects of these imperfections are minimal. But they always happen. With everyone.

In ArmA, they simply do not exist. Absolutely zero. The worst marksman in ArmA has a skill that not human being is capable of in the real world.

And so we have increased muzzle sway and recoil to compensate. That is my point.

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In my experience in real life ( though I'm not a skilled marksman ), breath control is basic. So to me weapon sway is correct.

Shooting at 200mts targets even in prone position, you need to have a correct posture to have good accuracy with the iron sights.

Get to that posture in a uneven terrain, under stress and with wild breath; well let's say combat is not a precision contest.

If you shoot as you stand by, you'll probably get a nice spray.

This is one of the main facts that games have not represented accurately. Firefights tend to be long due the lack of accuracy, even hours ( of course there are guys who have awesome marksman skills and steel nerves ).

But I guess that would make games boring.

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Longer firefights make the game boring, not better. That's the general consensus. Just about every mod that changes the gameplay has the aim of extending firefight in both range and duration.

The problem is how to do so without imposing artificial and frustrating limitations.

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The problem is how to do so without imposing artificial and frustrating limitations.

That's a good question.

In A2, with mods I managed to find a good long point for me ( there was even an awesome one that if someone was injured you could call the medevac, mark with smoke, etc. ).

But I think I'm quite a "realistic war freak", so I guess that everyone will have to still pick in A3 the mods that better fit their tastes.

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But people DO flinch in anticipation of the recoil. And they DO have inconsistent trigger pulls. If you are an incredible marksman, the effects of these imperfections are minimal. But they always happen. With everyone.

In ArmA, they simply do not exist. Absolutely zero. The worst marksman in ArmA has a skill that not human being is capable of in the real world.

And so we have increased muzzle sway and recoil to compensate. That is my point.

Then make the sway predictable. If you're trying to model breathing control (as MistyRonin says) or lack of fire discipline, at least make it predictable. In real life, I can be prone, supported, and basically snug as a bug in a rug. As I breath, the reticule has a predictable pattern. If I bone up the trigger pull, it's going to push the gun the same way.

In game, without mods, if you're prone, your reticule will move several mils (MILS!!!!) in random directions, completely uncommanded. It's incredibly frustrating.

And if (in game) you're using "better trained" addons (like SEALs, SF, MARSOC, etc), their weapon sway should be much lower, because they DO have the consistency in firing, and they DON'T flinch and jerk the trigger. Why? Because they train more. Based on your post above, all A3 units have poor firing discipline and limited training. It's a one size fits all answer that isn't realistic.

That's my biggest frustration. Again, hence the use of mods.

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I must say I agree, weapon sway is way to strong IMHO and gatordev point about it not being predictable with the breathing pattern is also very true.

Add to this the fact that bullets are pathetically weak and do almost no damage (while you die very quickly I must add).

Ho, and please, don't give me the future armor excuse, I did a test where I shoot someone in the face (not the helmet, I mean directly in the face) 5.56 ammo from point blank, I needed two bullets to kill him, ho yeah very realistic.

And also add the fact that you get fatigued incredibly quick no matter how much you carry in the most unrealistic and pathetic way possible,

And its so very true, urban engagement are not fun, annoying, frustrating and just feel wrong,

And I also play this game since original OFP and I never felt like it.

This needs to be fixed ASAP.

@maturin people who have no training might flinch, as an ex infantry soldier myself I can tell you that after a certain point of training and shooting enough times

you really don't care about the recoil and loud sound anymore and you just shoot with out really flinching (yes you blink, but you don't jump around surprised from the shots you just fired), you just get used to it.

Also perfect trigger pulls are not that hard to practice on, AND they don't matter so much (yes a little bit, but not really allot) unless you are a sniper or you really are doing something very wrong the way you pull the trigger.

Here is something we practiced on in the army for good trigger pulls, and it was not that hard.

Someone put a coin on the edge of the barrel while you are in a prone firing position.

You then squeeze the trigger (with no bullets of course) if the coin falls you failed.

You can pretty much get to the point the coin almost never falls from the barrel.

Edited by bez

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I must say I agree, weapon sway is way to strong IMHO and gatordev point about it not being predictable with the breathing pattern is also very true.

Add to this the fact that bullets are pathetically weak and do almost no damage (while you die very quickly I must add).

Ho, and please, don't give me the future armor excuse, I did a test where I shoot someone in the face (not the helmet, I mean directly in the face) 5.56 ammo from point blank, I needed two bullets to kill him, ho yeah very realistic.

About the damage try checking if on the editor the extended armor is on in the difficulty settings because i saw many people complaining about it and i don't have any issue with damage on my side, as for the shooting that's why its hard to know if it is working as it should, many people report different things.

I never shot any bullets myself so i use my A2 with ACE to compare. I find the hold breath time to be pretty short, and the fatigue is hitting really hard

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I like the sway the way it is. It makes the hold breath feature a necessity. Unlik in arma 2, I never need to use it. Now I really do.

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I personally have no problem with the sway. The game is at least more challenging and needs some skills. That is good for me (and I am not a hardcore player).

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About the damage try checking if on the editor the extended armor is on in the difficulty settings because i saw many people complaining about it and i don't have any issue with damage on my side, as for the shooting that's why its hard to know if it is working as it should, many people report different things.

I never shot any bullets myself so i use my A2 with ACE to compare. I find the hold breath time to be pretty short, and the fatigue is hitting really hard

Thanks, I saw some more posts about this extended armor just yesterday.

didn't have the chance to check it yet. will do.

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Here is something we practiced on in the army for good trigger pulls, and it was not that hard.

Someone put a coin on the edge of the barrel while you are in a prone firing position.

You then squeeze the trigger (with no bullets of course) if the coin falls you failed.

You can pretty much get to the point the coin almost never falls from the barrel.

So then why is accuracy at 300m so abysmal? If there's no recoil, flinching or sway, shouldn't everyone hit every shot, so long as they know where the holdoff is?

Whatever the exact dexterous task it, ArmA marksmen have absolute perfection in 90% of shooting skills by default.

And at the end of the day, I hope you realize that if the sway if 'fixed,' the game will be ruined. The player will just bulldoze everything and the AI can go home.

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