Weapon sway

[John Kozak 14]

First off Ai headshotting you at 400m isn't that common. But lets assume it is. Like I said, the problem is the situation. An ai shooting with ironsights at 400m should be less accurate I'll agree. But now give that ai an SOS and he is struggling to hit at 5-600 metres while the player is just picking off baddies left right and centre. If you ever play with ai you'll notice that you make for a good 40-60% of their casualties. And this is not because you are smart its because the ai can't hit and you can. Its all situational. The ai does have too good accuracy some times. But many other times it doesn't have good enough accuracy. I think where we sit now is a pretty fair balance until a system that dynamically changes ai skill is put in.

Well, giving AI SOS doesn't cancel out their accuracy with ironsights; also, friendly AI problem is spotting, not accuracy in this case - you start shooting way before your friendly AI spots something.

What? Yeah for an experienced sniper. But for your average grunt. Not so much. 1400 metre is along way and even hitting that with a laser would be hard. I do agree that we need more tools such as bipods to counter sway though.

Well, let's imagine I'm an experienced sniper by game's means. Problem is, my experience hardly helps keeping the sight at target - it's some artificial nerfing of player. Basically, it's so much hated balancing.

As it should be. Seeing the enemy is half the battle. Now you have to come up with a plan to get close and kill him. Its what makes things interesting and what is done reality.

For now my plan is:

1.Spot the enemy

2.Start shooting point blank or from medium range

3.Die, because AI doesn't react to my hitting rounds and shoots me just one time in the head.

Not so much in dev branch currently, but quite frequently so in stable. The only way of winning now is playing on AI's weak sides - slow reaction when moving, bad use of cover, lack of tactics.

And that's great. It certainly removes the ability to snipe people with assault rifles at 400m.

Was there such ability in ArmA 2 ever? hardly.

It is much easier in ArmA3 when you are prone. Snipers don't fire at 1.5km from crouch/standing stance.

I'm obviously too stupid to shoot from prone, am I?

Sway is not enough. We need wind to remove the ability for snipers to make easy hits at 500m+

Thanks for repeating my point about wind. But sway is excessive.

False. AIs are very bad shots at anything above 200m. I can take a generic HAMR and easily wipe a bunch of AIs by simply pointing its optic crosshair at AI and hitting fire while AIs will simply spray and pray.

Bravo Sierra

Try putting AIs in your own squad and you will be surprised how bad they are. It may take half a mag for one to put down an enemy while for the player it takes 3-4 shots at most (and only because of soldiers sometimes soaking bullets due to broken ArmA3 armor system)

Try putting yourself (rifleman) 300 meters from the enemy on a Altis salt lake, facing each other. Add "this reveal player" to AI's init. Watch yourself die before you can even align the aim first few times.

Edited November 29, 2013 by DarkWanderer

[Smurf 12]

This will be "balanced" as soon resting and bipods are implemented. :D

[John Kozak 14]

This will be "balanced" as soon resting and bipods are implemented. :D

That's my point. Either give us resting & bipods, or tune down sway - until it's done. Currently, it's "neither fish nor meat", as we say in Russia.

[maturin 12]

Try putting yourself (rifleman) 300 meters from the enemy on a Altis salt lake, facing each other. Add "this reveal player" to AI's init. Watch yourself die before you can even align the aim first few times.

I'll win, in my game. Explain why you are incapable of configuring yours.

[John Kozak 14]

I'll win, in my game. Explain why you are incapable of configuring yours.

Because you're living in an imaginary world, obviously, where you always win, you can be rude to anyone and everybody owes explanations to you. That's why.

Also, because I'm talking about vanilla game weapon sway, not about modded/configured one. Of course you're able to easily win, if you're playing on "Elite" with "Recruit" AI settings and mods dumbing down AI and removing sway. My point is about unmodified game.

[maturin 12]

Please don't come to the forums to whine and whine if you don't even bother to find difficulty settings.

precisionEnemy

It's not a mod

[Smurf 12]

Please don't come to the forums to whine and whine if you don't even bother to find difficulty settings.

precisionEnemy

It's not a mod

Yeah yeah, how can one complain if he only needs to (find it first and) change a obscure parameter on a .hpp file hidden inside a folder that you barely use?

Those damn COD and DayZ players huh?

:j:

Soon engouh the recent changes on the AI and all involved should make things better.

[John Kozak 14]

Please don't come to the forums to whine and whine if you don't even bother to find difficulty settings.

precisionEnemy

It's not a mod

Please refrain from reading, let alone answering, forums if you can't comprehend what's the discussion is actually about. Thanks.

Most of your posts also violate Forum rules #1: bigotry. I've reported some of them appropriately.

[Chocolate 1]

Yeah, Maturin is kind of being a douche.

On topic: Need resting and bipods. Simple and sweet.

[rye1 21]

I got your point(s) DarkWanderer and nodded away to them. :D

[iceman77 18]

LOL this thread is getting out of hand.

[dnk 13]

As douchy as maturin may be being, I love this exchange:

M: if you configure the game properly, you don't have these issues with the AI

DW: I'm talking about an unmodified game

M: it's not a mod.

DW: bigot.

Forum doesn't have smileys for my feelings on that one.

[NeMeSiS 11]

As douchy as maturin may be being, I love this exchange:

M: if you configure the game properly, you don't have these issues with the AI

DW: I'm talking about an unmodified game

M: it's not a mod.

DW: bigot.

Forum doesn't have smileys for my feelings on that one.

To be fair: It should be configured properly out of the box.

[dnk 13]

True, true. Thankfully, it seems they've got someone working on that (AI configs) right now and it'll be out fairly soon.

[John Kozak 14]

As douchy as maturin may be being, I love this exchange:

M: if you configure the game properly, you don't have these issues with the AI

DW: I'm talking about an unmodified game

M: it's not a mod.

DW: bigot.

Forum doesn't have smileys for my feelings on that one.

Taking the discussion out of context, intentionally misinterpreting meaning of my post - all to try to make a personal retort. Bravo.

LOL this thread is getting out of hand.

I agree :/

However it's pretty much concluded anyways. I just wonder what needs to be done by the community so that The Ticket Number 1 gets implemented. Mods are good, but there're still some downsides to them... Would be a dream to see this in vanilla.

Edited December 2, 2013 by DarkWanderer

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah, Maturin is kind of being a douche.

On topic: Need resting and bipods. Simple and sweet.

This is basically the solution to this thread

[4brkfast 10]

This is supposed to be a simulator, correct? Where much of the game certainly qualifies as this, the side to side sway(the newly added sway) is not affected by holding your breath. And it is highly unrealistic and literally has ruined by desire to play Arma 3 as infantry.

Even while prone a compact gun endlessly sways, whether I'm holding my breath or not. A gun like the DMR Rahim 7.62mm while prone behaves like it's a .50 sniper rifle of some kind while sitting on a ship at sea while standing. I don't know what the Rahim is supposed to be, but I can't imagine a 'future' weapon of that sort weighing more than 15 pounds, even if it did weigh more which is doubtful, it still wouldn't be hard to keep it steady while prone for probably an indefinite amount of time. While standing I can personally hold a 12 gauge Remmington 1100 steady while standing for at least 5 seconds with minimal sway, it's just not that hard frankly and if I'm sitting with support, it's steady. This isn't me tooting my own horn, it's just reality. I have a 12 year old cousin that can do the same if not better than I can.

If nothing else, have the hold breath function actually function as it's intended, to hold the gun steady for a few seconds.

I can't express to you how much this has ruined the gameplay in my experience. It's just no fun!! And these soldiers in the game as trained, are they not? It doesn't feel like that anymore. If feels like playing a soldier that has breathing issues and has never held a gun before in his life.

I don't want a call of duty game, I don't think anybody here does. But I do want a simulator. And Arma 3 is currently not simulating a supposed elite soldier's ability to hold a gun steady for at least a few seconds. Not to mention, some of these guns are prototype 'future' weapons that are probably lightweight and almost all of them are bullup designs, which means shorter guns and much easier ability to handle.

A simple fix is having the hold breath function work as intended. And adjusting some of the weapons to reflect their weight and ease of use, as well as the stances reflecting a genuine simulation. It doesn't make sense for a compact assault rifle to be swaying while prone and holding your breath.

Please please please please please fix this issue! It must be priority! In my opinion it was already a bit excessive but now it's over the top no fun. It's made the game quite unplayable for me.

Please please fix!! At the risk of sounding like a troll, it's as if the makers of the game have never held a gun or shot one before in their life, no offense, but that's the impression I'm getting.

[KrIxXuS 10]

The whole weapon sway fatigue rubbish has ruined infantry for me too right now, whenever i take a launcher as well as weapons my guy is out of breath after less than 20 metre's.... its just not realistic in any way and the main purpose of arma 3 was and always will be for me about fun, regardless of simulator qualities the majority of us don't want something so real that we can't enjoy it... save the fatigue system for hardcore military personnel and wanna be's. It should be an on and off option for missions in the editor and game controls... if i want real fatigue and swaying i will drink excessive amounts of alcohol and dance all night... i don't need it in my game that i paid 70 quid for (twice) thank's :-).

[maturin 12]

You don't get out of breath after 20 meters.

Frantic hyperbole just makes everyone want to tune out your whining.

[roshnak 41]

Hey guys, there's actually a thread about this that was created this year that you can post in.

[Ranwer135 308]

The whole weapon sway fatigue rubbish has ruined infantry for me too right now, whenever i take a launcher as well as weapons my guy is out of breath after less than 20 metre's.... its just not realistic in any way and the main purpose of arma 3 was and always will be for me about fun, regardless of simulator qualities the majority of us don't want something so real that we can't enjoy it... save the fatigue system for hardcore military personnel and wanna be's. It should be an on and off option for missions in the editor and game controls... if i want real fatigue and swaying i will drink excessive amounts of alcohol and dance all night... i don't need it in my game that i paid 70 quid for (twice) thank's :-).

Why don't we just have a weapon sway like BF4 or ArmA 2? :cool:

(I hate to be offtopic, but ArmA 3 really needs a melee system like BF4)

[badlucky1776 3]

Hrm... I will add my two cents.

EXP...Former Navy & LE. About 1200 hrs in firearms training & rangetime (pretty much everything M2 Browning and smaller). Worked in the firearms community (defense/LE/domestic US) on and off for about 15 years. I feel moderately comfortable giving my opinion.

Weapon sway in 1.24 is a wee bit over the top. The weapon side-to-side sway while standing still (no fatigue ingame) is closer to what I experience doing an actual fatigue drill (40 situps/35 pushups, stand & shoot). I can understand the devs trying to simulate fatigue/adrenaline/inexperience in the shooting dynamic, but this feels more like the player has just ingested a couple bottles of Nyquil and marched into a gunfight.

Natural sway does included some lateral motion, but if the weapon is held correctly the shooter should mostly have to manage the vertical motion caused by respiration. The side-to-side sway introduced in 1.24 should be tied to extreme fatigue only - it does become difficult to position a 7 lbs (thats loaded/no optics/no lam-lights) rifle after a 1/2 mile run.

The optic swaying from one side of the screen to another? What does this simulate? If I physically have the energy to shoulder a weapon for sighting, I've never experienced my head bobbing laterally so that my sight picture moved like that. If you have an optic mounted on a weapon somewhere just try to simulate this. Where the sight gets to the edge of the screen ingame...you can no longer see the sight picture thru an actual optic. I just tried it with my M4 and Redfield 30mm optic...I'm at a loss. Even extremely tired my sight picture stays centered. My torso and arms may impart respiratory sway and fatigue shaking, but never does my sight move like I'm having a grand mal seizure.

Overall I could identify with the pre-1.24 sway dynamic, but I understand BIS attempt to improve. Here's some tips for a direction that may help...

- Stance is key, not just prone, kneeling standing, but how long you've adjusted to your stance. Try changing stance and immediately firing vs coming to a stance and taking a split second to stabilize yourself.

- Slow gait walking can allow for good controlled CQB firing (sub 50 ft range)

- Non-fatigued standing and kneeling stances are going to be more effected by respiration (vertical sway)...likewise recently walking = respiration is going to be faster

- Changing stance from prone-to-standing or kneeling-to-standing is going to effect fatigue greater than downward stance changes (not talking about diving mind you). Put 20-30 lbs in a backpack and try it yourself.

- Physical exertion isn't all the same. A slow jog for a mile can be a lot less taxing than an all out 100 yard sprint loaded down. The body gets time to adjust to the jog, but the sprint creates large fatigue problems over a much shorter distance.

- Extreme activity can have the same kind of gross motor effects that is experienced in 1.24 (albiet more vertical than side-to-side and more shaking than even swaying - nature of muscle recovery). But, and this is a BIG BUTT, it can be managed by being more conditioned to physical stress and experience with adrenaline. Maybe you should tie this to the reaction of the character based upon skill setting?

- Fear and adrenaline...some of the suppression mods have done some work to simulate this. Being shot at causes the body to flood with adrenaline (been there done that - El Camino Mall shooting Sacramento, Oct 19th, 1991). While this causes more shaking and rapid breathing (faster vertical sway) it actually has a negating effect on fatigue. I've never moved faster and farther in my life without feeling tired. Inversely, a person who is unprepared can experience paralysis (fight/flight/freeze). This could again be tied to skill level. 49% skill and lower = freeze (degrees of paralysis/slow movement). Units with 50% skill and greater = fight/flight (degrees of little or no fatigue for period of time).

Edited July 21, 2014 by BadLucky1776

[rye1 21]

^ This is a good post.

[Rath 10]

BadLucky, I couldn't agree more, well said!

[roshnak 41]

Hey again, guys. Just wanted to remind you that we've got a ton of discussion about this in the post patch thread.