AI Discussion (dev branch)

[froggyluv 2136]

Hm, I don't think this splendid work has made it out into the wilds of the dev branch yet, but it's progressing promisingly under Dr. Hladik's careful watch and QA's noble care.

The focus of the work (in collaboration with Klamacz) is upon killing the issues identified when AI are suddenly confronted with threats in CQB; involving:

• Surprise Target - Dealing with the AI spotting the player while it is already en route to cover; making the AI more likely to stop and engage; linking this decision to distance to target (will engage at close range, will prefer cover at medium-long range)
  
• Rotation Speed- increasing speed AI is able to turn; pegging this increase to accuracy, so when AI turn quickly, accuracy is lowered
  

Obviously, things need to be properly tested so we don't destroy current, desired behaviour, but it should be unleashed on dev branch if initial validation goes well.

Best,

RiE

Words can't express how happy to see this being worked on! As far as imminent threat stopping rather than seeking cover -is it possible to have chance of lateral movement as in side strafe while spray as they move to cover?

[dr. hladik 231]

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=12806

Can any dev give any feedback on this issue? AI crew need to be taught how to repair vehicles - this would help greatly, reducing the need for many vehicles in a mission. Instead, a few that could get repaired by their crews could be used. This reflects real life: for example, in WW2 it was common to defend a broken down tank mounted or dismounted until you could get out of it in a lull and fix whatever damage was preventing you from moving on.

They also need some look into their formation following behaviour, I have to add.

It seems as if they orient their formation onto the position of the highest known thread, causing column formations especially to wave around, instead of staying in the tracks of the leader. This is true both for units on foot, and in vehicles. Otherwise the formation behaviour seems to be random at times when under threat, with vehicles bumping into each other a lot. I mostly observe this with the tracked vehicles (kamysh), however it's random and so far I´ve not yet reliably reproduced what is going on. I will make a ticket once I know more.

There is already mechanism, that AI leader will ask repairman to fix* assigned vehicle.

Could be improved, that AI driver will do it automaticly.

But not before release and someone would have to convince our lead sandbox designer, that tank driver should be repairman.

*fix = set hitpoints to appx. 30%, total damage remains.

[KeyCat 131]

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=12806

Can any dev give any feedback on this issue? AI crew need to be taught how to repair vehicles - this would help greatly, reducing the need for many vehicles in a mission. Instead, a few that could get repaired by their crews could be used. This reflects real life: for example, in WW2 it was common to defend a broken down tank mounted or dismounted until you could get out of it in a lull and fix whatever damage was preventing you from moving on.

In A1/A2 you could place a repair truck (or fuel and ammo) on the map and give it a support WP and it would then seek up damaged tanks. Problem was/is that it often drove into battle and got blown to pieces. Whats needed for tanks/APC/helis/etc is some kind of retreat system like the infantry have so they try to disengage when taking heavy damage and pull back from the fight so repair truck can reach them safely. For helis/planes it should be RTB (if any).

I haven't tested it in A3 yet but in A2 they just kept going forward with no self preservation until they get killed, if AI could retreat to repair etc. armour battles would become more interesting and last longer.

/KC

Edited August 15, 2013 by KeyCat

[mr reality 0]

I just used a switch trigger, with opfor not present on the support waypoint, worked a treat.

[KeyCat 131]

Good one MrReality, the cool thing with support waypoint was/is that you only need to place one anywhere on the map and they can be called in by you or AI if needed wherever you are, same goes for medic trucks.

/KC

[Sniperwolf572 758]

consider it fixed.

Excellent! Can't wait to see what you've done with it. :)

[cotabucky 10]

Keep up the good work and support on the AI issues :) .After the impressive latest Beta patch features and fixes i'm starting to smile again lol(havn't tested it but like the fix's listed).Keep up the good work! SEPT 12th still seems an unrealistic date but you have your reasons i'm sure($$$).Fix and Polish this baby up and I can't wait to see what the Mod and Mission editing community can do from there :) .

[HKFlash 9]

Meanwhile at the Kamino Firing Range...

Issue #12816:

A.I. pathfinding issues at the Kamino Firing Range

[royaltyinexile 175]

Words can't express how happy to see this being worked on!

Today's update should include the refinement to AI behaviour when spotting players in close proximety (<35m).

Best,

RiE

[Azzur33 1]

refinement to AI behaviour when spotting players in close proximety (<35m).

Splendid! It does work! This fixes so many "What the ...?" -moments.

Almost better friday present(?) than the drone things, which, I may say, are pretty cool too. Cheers!

[best2nd 10]

Today's update should include the refinement to AI behaviour when spotting players in close proximety (<35m).

Best,

RiE

I was wondering why AI keeps killing me :(

[ericfr 0]

Today's update should include the refinement to AI behaviour when spotting players in close proximety (<35m).

Best,

RiE

Thanks, Finally, significant AI behavior.

[bad benson 1733]

Thanks, Finally, significant AI behavior.

it's absolutely correct to call it "significant". i could go on a rant now, why this has never been touched before but i'm too happy now :D

i understand that this might break other parts of the AI and i'm totally happy about this either way. please keep it up. i always come to the thread now, after checking all the others, because it restores my faith that this game might actually exploit its full potential one day.

if more of these major flaws (not only AI) can be fixed some day (arma 4 or late arma 3 patches? :p ) this could be better than anything out there. *ramble mode off*

keep it up! finally this game gets what it needs

Edited August 16, 2013 by Bad Benson
gotta wait and see if it's actually in yet...

[Azzur33 1]

the only thing that might need some work is the speed of the actual turning animation.

True. Now they are more dangerous, but not yet dangerous enough. AI flanking is now a lot more efficient, though. If one guy is shot being too slow to shoot, there may be another one taking you down before you can look around, not turning his back on you and trying to find a cover before shooting you.

[KeyCat 131]

Today's update should include the refinement to AI behaviour when spotting players in close proximety (<35m).

Sounds like a winner!

However the AI is still homing in on you like deadly terminators within a few seconds even if you just fire a couple of shots from concealed position (and they had their backs towards me at ~300 m range). This "AI-instant-knows-where-you-are" must IMHO be dealt with, I know you have lots on the plate but this AI behavior are killing it for lots of ppl!

I'm not looking for easy AI but neither do I wan't them to behave like terminators and have senses above normal human beings. IIRC above experience was when playing on veteran (skill = 0.70 default) and the AI infantry group had skill between 0-0.40, it would maybe be OK if skill level was set to superskill but not at 0-0.90.

I will see if I can create a repro showing it off later tonight. Looking forward to test above mentioned changes...

/KC

Edited August 16, 2013 by KeyCat

[royaltyinexile 175]

Sounds like a winner!

However the AI is still homing in on you like deadly terminators within a few seconds even if you just fire a couple of shots from concealed position (and they had their backs towards me at ~300 m range).

I will see if I can create a repro showing it off later tonight. Looking forward to test above mentioned changes...

/KC

I'd be interested in seeing the Repro you come up with! I find the AI locating targets from sound to be a bit better now, we made some changes particularly with player movement that made the AI less able to immediately zero in on you.

I updated the original AI CQB repro, and I find the behaviour quite nice. You could easily change it so the player only shoots (rather than reveals himself to the enemy and shoots).

Best,

RiE

[KeyCat 131]

Repro to show what I mean, the distance was a bit shorter than I remembered but AI is pinpointing your position and spot you like terminators.

http://keycat.no-ip.com/files/A3B_AI_Terminators.zip

Repro steps (Veteran with AI skill = 0.70):

1. At mission start go prone directly.

2. Crawl ~25 m to NW you will see the roadcone in the bush.

3. Take a nice prone position in/under the bush and look into the base NW with 4x scope, you should see the AI group standing with their backs against you.

4. Try kill the guy at the corner of the white building using 2-3 shots in rapid fire then just lay still. Even if you manage to kill him with one headshot they can pinpoint you, not every time tho.

5. After a a couple of second AI will detect and kill you.

It's like the AI get your percieved position almost instantly even without seeing the muzzleflash and on top of that they got X-ray like vision and see you hiding in pretty good concealment. IMO they should not be able to pinpoint you after just a couple of shots but instead act confused/scared and take cover, especially not at skills ranging from ~0-0.80 (in this case skill is between 0-0.40, default group placed in editor). Even if the looked in my direction they should not home in on you that quick when you are consealed in vegetation.

In a perfect Armaverse skill level 0.50 should should IMO give AI average human like senses and capabilities then there are possibility to scale up or down to make mission easier/harder but I'm sure this is much harder to get right than I can imagine.

Hope it helps explaining my POV now I'm gonna test your AI CQB repro :)

Keep it up!

/KC

[kylania 568]

4. Try kill the guy at the corver of the white building using 2-3 shots in rapid fire then just lay still.

5. After a a couple of second AI will detect and kill you.

I should hope so! :) If you kill the guy with a single shot, the AI don't attack you. They look around, they take cover, they get agitated but no termination. Stay in the SAME SPOT and fire AGAIN and they'll zero in on your location. Multiple shots from one location should equal AI all over you, right?

[KeyCat 131]

I should hope so! :) If you kill the guy with a single shot, the AI don't attack you. They look around, they take cover, they get agitated but no termination. Stay in the SAME SPOT and fire AGAIN and they'll zero in on your location. Multiple shots from one location should equal AI all over you, right?

Even if you kill him with one single headshot they could pinpoint you but not every time. Anyway 1-3 rapid shots should not give away your position like this IMO and not at low skill levels. If I keep firing at them yes but not that quick. Try yourself to randomly place AI that fire at you, sometimes it takes pretty long time to see where they are after the

confusion clears.

Again I'm not looking for easy kills but this feels just to "uber human" to me at this skill levels, if the they are that sharp at high/max skill levels thats maybe OK but give me an option to tone down AI senses.

I'm also aware that this must be one of the harder parts to write code for and balance correctly so it works for stealth type missions with 1-4 players and scale up to all out WW3 scenarios but it looks like BIS is up for the challange unlike DICE and others :)

/KC

Edited August 16, 2013 by KeyCat

[Azzur33 1]

Tried several times, checked my visibility with Spectator cam.

If I stayed still where I shot the AI, beside the cone, I was shot at very soon.

-From AI point of view, I was clearly visible.

If I moved behind the bush properly and immediately after the shots, I was not shot at, and AI was confused.

-From AI point of view, I could not see me well, only one foot maybe.

If I shot few bursts through the bushes, totally hidden, AI couldn't pinpoint my location.

That was consistent with every try.

If I could see me from AI's point of view, I was shot at.

If I was hiding better, I was Not shot at.

It didn't matter if I shot one-shot-kill, or burst kill, or didn't kill, or didn't hit at all.

So, I don't think there is any problem.

If you can see what you are shooting well enough, they can also see you.

If you shoot them from where you can see them better, and then move behind the bush properly, they can't see you.

It may sometimes be difficult to know when you are concealed enough. Then you must be prepare yourself before you shoot the first bullet, so you can crawl back quickly. It is not wise to engage a group of enemy on your own, hiding behind a bush. But if you have to, you have to be more careful.

[kylania 568]

I updated the original AI CQB repro, and I find the behaviour quite nice.

In Dev every time one maybe two guys peeked around the corner and shot at me while most of the time one member would flank around the building. In Stable two guys would shuffle around and two guys would walk out into the open in front of where I'd fired, slowly turn and maybe shoot me. Splendid changes indeed!

[KeyCat 131]

So, I don't think there is any problem.

If you can see what you are shooting well enough, they can also see you.

Lets agree to disagree, you are overseeing a few critical things IMO.

1. Again check the skill level of AI, many of them are at 0 and the highest at 0.40! If they have this good senses at that level how good are they at 1.00?

2. You saw yourself in the camera since you knew exactly where to look. The AI have no prevoius knowlegde about you and you are prone in camouflage clothes etc. in grass/vegetation and completely still. No way a human could hear a shot or two and then turn around and know exactly where to look and then identify an enemy within a few seconds when the shot could been fired from any 180 angle and any distance between 50-300 m at any hight, no way!

It's really hard to se anything camoflagued still in the nature if you don't know where to look, it's not that we wearing a orange safety suit with a blinking lantern on our head.

/KC

Edited August 17, 2013 by KeyCat

[Azzur33 1]

Lets agree to disagree, you are overseeing a few critical things IMO.

1. Again check the skill level of AI, many of them are at 0 and the highest at 0.40! If they have this good senses at that level how good are they at 1.00?

Let's not fight. You are now overseeing few Critical ones.

The skill level is not your eyesight. Senses should be pretty equal. If you can see, you can see. It's not like the lowest ranking soldier is half blind.

It's about the Equipment.

The squad/team leaders have scopes, so they can see you very well. If you kill them first, and before they can turn and find you, the rest of the group can't see you easily (unless you start shooting again while they are watching), and you are pretty safe.

2. You saw yourself in the camera since you knew exactly where to look. The AI have no prevoius knowlegde about you and you are prone in camouflage clothes etc. in grass/vegetation and completely still. No way a human could hear a shot or two and then turn around and know exactly where to look and then identify an enemy within a few seconds when the shot could been fired from any 180 angle and any distance between 50-300 m at any hight, no way!

I watched the approximate direction where the shot came from, there I was, visible. I didn't have to look Exactly that spot. If I was shot from north, I would look north. And I would definitely see the shooter, who is as close as on this case. The distance was about 100 meters. As I said, I was not concealed, I could see my pink face, weapon and so on. When I was well behind the branches, even the leaders couldn't find me, although a part of me was still visible.

It's really hard to se anything camoflagued still in the nature if you don't know where to look, it's not that we wearing a orange safety suit with a blinking lantern on our head.

But it is not so hard if you know where to look and the subject is rather close. And if you have a scope.

The ghillie suit is for hiding, normal combat uniform just makes you harder target. If you paint your face and camo your weapon, then you are more difficult to see.

You Can kill few AI soldiers in that example mission without them firing back. You can kill the whole group if you are sneaky enough (and lucky). Just avoid the mistakes.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Azzur33

[KeyCat 131]

I agree, there is no need to fight and IMO we don't. We just have different opinions (which is OK) and discussing it...

The skill level is not your eyesight. Senses should be pretty equal. If you can see, you can see. It's not like the lowest ranking soldier is half blind.

It's about the Equipment.

The squad/team leaders have scopes, so they can see you very well.

I assume spot distance and reaction time both are affected by the skill level, the setskill array have these parameters...

aimingAccuracy

aimingShake

aimingSpeed

endurance

spotDistance

spotTime

courage

reloadSpeed

commanding

general

You have a point regarding the scopes but with relative low FOV it takes more than a few seconds to scan an area for threaths. Would be interesting to see if result is the same if all weapons is changed to have no scopes?

Regarding camouflage, I know for a fact that combat uniforms alone can hide you pretty well and ghillie suits can make you pretty much invisible in the nature if you know what you are doing (and are stationary). Also, every soldier knows to put on their makeup before going to battle, at least we always did before drills when doing my military service.

My point is, just because you have direct LOS to a camouflaged object doesn't means you automaticly spot it.

Anyway, it would make an interesting experiment to set up a similar situation in MP and see how long it takes for a human in game to detect and engage. Would be simple enough to run a few times so if you or anyone else want to test send me a PM and I will make a similar mission in another location to test with.

/KC

Edited August 17, 2013 by KeyCat

[Azzur33 1]

Would be interesting to see if result is the same if all weapons is changed to have no scopes?

I've been testing and checking again.

I changed the squad/team leaders to riflemen, same skill level and rank. They couldn't see me, even if I was a bit more visible. They tried, scanned around, didn't see me.

I tried with one squad leader, and shot near him or wounded him, and watched his weapon moving. He was searching quite a large area, if I was lucky he couldn't see me before he stopped scanning. Sometimes it took him only a couple of seconds, sometimes a lot more time. The narrow FOV seems to affect AI too.

Regarding camouflage, I know for a fact that combat uniforms alone can hide you pretty well and ghillie suits can make you pretty much invisible in the nature if you know what you are doing (and are stationary). Also, every soldier knows to put on their makeup before going to battle, at least we always did before drills when doing my military service.

Yeah the movement reveals you quite easily, I don't know how that works from AI point of view, does for example freelooking around make you more visible to AI. But AI laying low looking around is quite easy to spot.

My point is, just because you have direct LOS to a camouflaged object doesn't means you automaticly spot it.

Well .. that must be really hard to simulate.

The movement reveals you. The slight colour difference in camo may reveal you. Your shape may reveal you. Or you can miss the signs completely.

If AI can see some part of you, should there be a probability percentage for recognition, until you reveal yourself by moving. And then there is other variables like weather, time of day and so on. I don't know how much these are already coded in the AI.

Anyway, it would make an interesting experiment to set up a similar situation in MP and see how long it takes for a human in game to detect and engage. Would be simple enough to run a few times so if you or anyone else want to test send me a PM and I will make a similar mission in another location to test with.

I tried playing with placement radius and probability of presence, random stealth waypoints, AI having only 3 bullets, and setunitpos "down" in differend places to get some exciting "someone shot you from a random location staying low" -scenarios. They could be spotted quite easily with a scope in few seconds, but they obviously weren't hiding as well or staying as still as a human player can. So multiplayer testing could be interesting.