Excellent ballistics simuiation, but where's the defensive?

[Bazzalan 10]

To jump right into it, I'm new to the forums, and to Arma's line of military simulators. First of all, let me say that I'm impressed with how this all works so far, but there's something that nags at me with every server that I join: Why do any of the carrier rigs or vests offer any form of protection? This is supposed to be a military simulator after all, and yet I find myself wondering why the guy sitting next to me in the chopper in nothing but his boxer shorts is able to live as long as I am.

From what I've seen, a LOT goes in to simulating bullet travel, velocity, and trajectory, but is no one working out the protective plates that reside in your assault vests? Last I checked, our modern-day soldiers don't run towards the sound of trouble naked. Your average level III and IV plates are designed to stop .308 winchester, up to an .06 AP. This being said, my question is: Why is something that goes so fundamentally hand-in-hand with ballistics not implemented? Even the Rainbow Six series has this down to the dot, and it's one of the things I always enjoyed about it.

Think it's pointless or ineffective or too much work? A bud of mine got hit with a one ounce 12 gauge slug in his home when a robber went at him point-blank while he was wearing his plated carrier vest. Knocked down and bruised? Yes. But dead? Definitely not. Stop sending us in naked, BI.

Feedback and comments are appreciated.

[GottyPlays 10]

To jump right into it, I'm new to the forums, and to Arma's line of military simulators. First of all, let me say that I'm impressed with how this all works so far, but there's something that nags at me with every server that I join: Why do any of the carrier rigs or vests offer any form of protection? This is supposed to be a military simulator after all, and yet I find myself wondering why the guy sitting next to me in the chopper in nothing but his boxer shorts is able to live as long as I am.

From what I've seen, a LOT goes in to simulating bullet travel, velocity, and trajectory, but is no one working out the protective plates that reside in your assault vests? Last I checked, our modern-day soldiers don't run towards the sound of trouble naked. Your average level III and IV plates are designed to stop .308 winchester, up to an .06 AP. This being said, my question is: Why is something that goes so fundamentally hand-in-hand with ballistics not implemented? Even the Rainbow Six series has this down to the dot, and it's one of the things I always enjoyed about it.

Think it's pointless or ineffective or too much work? A bud of mine got hit with a one ounce 12 gauge slug in his home when a robber went at him point-blank while he was wearing his plated carrier vest. Knocked down and bruised? Yes. But dead? Definitely not. Stop sending us in naked, BI.

Feedback and comments are appreciated.

i hope devs will solve this ISSUE soon, i hope this is considered as a bug or WIP thingy, because this is ridiculos.

[Brisse 78]

Devs have already said that helmets and vests will have realistic protection values. Not sure how far they have implemented it yet.

Note: Not all vests are plate carriers !!! Only plate carriers should offer protection.

[twistking 204]

Devs have already said that helmets and vests will have realistic protection values. Not sure how far they have implemented it yet.

Note: Not all vests are plate carriers !!! Only plate carriers should offer protection.

I agree. Also in his first official arma 3 video, dslyecxi said, that proper protection was a "reasonable expectation" for the finished product. i know, he is not a dev, but i hope he knows a bit more, than we know;)

[tremanarch 6]

i tried shooting at NVG and guns, they block the bullets, so thats already working so far. but armor is not, i guess theyre working on that.

[mantls 2]

i tried shooting at NVG and guns, they block the bullets, so thats already working so far. but armor is not, i guess theyre working on that.

i hope they are. A cheesy workaround would probably be the HandleDamage EH. But yeah, hopefully BIS fixes this ASAP, like so many other things. There are so many things in A3 as of now that people have been nagging about since OFP times its not even funny.

[Masharra 10]

i tried shooting at NVG and guns, they block the bullets, so thats already working so far. but armor is not, i guess theyre working on that.

I can understand guns but nvg's? Whilst I can somewhat understand but... nvg's block bullets?

[comp_uter15776 1]

Yes...? Inside an NVG it is packed full of lenses, optical detection electronics, and other various gubbins, besides the metal or hard plastic which the device casing is made from. I'd say it is sufficient enough to stop a bullet. As a slight aside, iirc Mythbusters shot a bullet through the scope of a rifle to see if the bullet would smash into the sniper's eye... and no, it didn't work.

[Laqueesha 474]

I can understand guns but nvg's? Whilst I can somewhat understand but... nvg's block bullets?

When a bullet strikes a solid object, its trajectory will be altered (NVGs included).

[dale0404 5]

To jump right into it, I'm new to the forums, and to Arma's line of military simulators. First of all, let me say that I'm impressed with how this all works so far, but there's something that nags at me with every server that I join: Why do any of the carrier rigs or vests offer any form of protection? This is supposed to be a military simulator after all, and yet I find myself wondering why the guy sitting next to me in the chopper in nothing but his boxer shorts is able to live as long as I am.

From what I've seen, a LOT goes in to simulating bullet travel, velocity, and trajectory, but is no one working out the protective plates that reside in your assault vests? Last I checked, our modern-day soldiers don't run towards the sound of trouble naked. Your average level III and IV plates are designed to stop .308 winchester, up to an .06 AP. This being said, my question is: Why is something that goes so fundamentally hand-in-hand with ballistics not implemented? Even the Rainbow Six series has this down to the dot, and it's one of the things I always enjoyed about it.

Think it's pointless or ineffective or too much work? A bud of mine got hit with a one ounce 12 gauge slug in his home when a robber went at him point-blank while he was wearing his plated carrier vest. Knocked down and bruised? Yes. But dead? Definitely not. Stop sending us in naked, BI.

Feedback and comments are appreciated.

This is actually a very good point and hopefully BI are doing something about it. Anyone made a ticket?

[Sneakson 1]

The current damage system is very much work in progress if that's what you're saying?

[Zatan13th 10]

I think it already there, just look at the config files.

However, the protection value for each items are not different much (0.x% -I think) that's why you cant notice the differences for bullets resistance between boxer-tribal warrior and full-gearaholic airsofter.

[ratszo 17]

Be nice to have encumberance values on plates.

When i shoot a guy center-mass, i want him dead or 'combat ineffective'.

Revive scripts do bring the medic logistics train into play --ace plays it out real well.

Is it the Haig Convention where soft points are banned in war?

Thinking aloud 'bout soft-point tungstun core rounds, 'daisy-cutter' ammo out in the world today..., teflon sabot.

Bang,Bang..., you're dead is the way it is.

[ovenmit 11]

its already there, for example:

class V_PlateCarrier1_rgr : Vest_Base {
	scope = public;
	displayName = "$STR_A3_V_PlateCarrier1_rgr0";
	picture = "\A3\characters_f\Data\UI\icon_V_plate_carrier_1_CA.paa";
	model = "\A3\Characters_F\BLUFOR\equip_b_vest02";

	class ItemInfo : VestItem {
		uniformModel = "\A3\Characters_F\BLUFOR\equip_b_vest02";
		containerClass = "Supply100";
		mass = 50;
		armor = 5*0.5;
		passThrough = 0.7;
	};
};

If its actually working though is anybodies guess

[ZoneTrooper 10]

To jump right into it, I'm new to the forums, and to Arma's line of military simulators. First of all, let me say that I'm impressed with how this all works so far, but there's something that nags at me with every server that I join: Why do any of the carrier rigs or vests offer any form of protection? This is supposed to be a military simulator after all, and yet I find myself wondering why the guy sitting next to me in the chopper in nothing but his boxer shorts is able to live as long as I am.

From what I've seen, a LOT goes in to simulating bullet travel, velocity, and trajectory, but is no one working out the protective plates that reside in your assault vests? Last I checked, our modern-day soldiers don't run towards the sound of trouble naked. Your average level III and IV plates are designed to stop .308 winchester, up to an .06 AP. This being said, my question is: Why is something that goes so fundamentally hand-in-hand with ballistics not implemented? Even the Rainbow Six series has this down to the dot, and it's one of the things I always enjoyed about it.

Think it's pointless or ineffective or too much work? A bud of mine got hit with a one ounce 12 gauge slug in his home when a robber went at him point-blank while he was wearing his plated carrier vest. Knocked down and bruised? Yes. But dead? Definitely not. Stop sending us in naked, BI.

Feedback and comments are appreciated.

I can guarantee you that you defenetly go down after a shot with a .308 Sniper bullet.The impact of a sniper rifle with call .308 would penetratet a lvl 3 also lvl 4 armor from 500 meters away.

In Germany we did a test on our balistic vests class 4,they stop a bullet of a AK-47 from a distance of 1 meter.But getting shot from such a distance or up to 200 meters you defently would be knock off your feet.

In most weapons of ARMA 3 are 6.5 MM they are pretty simular to 5.56 NATO but they fly faster and are better stabilized,but they dont offer the power auf a 7.62 round.

I most cases if you are getting hit while wearing a type 3 or 4 vest you dont even notice,that something hit you if it was 5.56 NATO rounds.

[Deadfast 43]

A cheesy workaround would probably be the HandleDamage EH.

Not until this is fixed. Hard to create a damage system unless you can reliably determine what was actually hit.

[dale0404 5]

Not until this is fixed. Hard to create a damage system unless you can reliably determine what was actually hit.

Upvoted and that's a biggie!

[sprayer_faust 0]

I can guarantee you that you defenetly go down after a shot with a .308 Sniper bullet.The impact of a sniper rifle with call .308 would penetratet a lvl 3 also lvl 4 armor from 500 meters away.

Even a cheap 90$ steel plate can take quite some punishment with 5.56 and at least one .308 round from a hunting rifle from ~30 m. And all that in almost the same spot, before metal fatigue lets it down:

[dragon01 902]

I agree, this needs to be fixed, and quick. Right now, armor doesn't really work like it should. Overall, the damage system and medic system are very unrealistic. You can't kill a guy IRL by unloading an MG belt in his leg. This will shred the leg and probably cause violent bleeding, but even in case of complete amputation (sadly, BIS isn't interested in implementing that), it's possible to stop the bleeding and save the guy. In ArmA, shooting a guy in the ankle will sometimes make a kill. At least weapons and NVGs stop bullets, but they have another problem, namely they're perfectly functional after that.

Also, another problem is that ArmA doesn't seem to have a simulation for knocking people on their back without killing them. A heavy round to the COM )or above it) that doesn't penetrate the armor will likely throw the wearer off balance. Especially if the bullet is an expanding point one (I know they're illegal in warfare. Police uses them, though). That goes double for a shotgun blast, which won't penetrate even a wimpy vest, but will impart a lot of force upon the wearer. To properly simulate the effects of a bullet on a human (and not only that, explosion and fall damage also need this), far more than damage is needed.

[maturin 12]

Getting hit by a .45 round imparts no more force than a baseball pitch. Knockdown power is a myth, and people simply fall down when they receive horrible bleeding wounds from sudden gunshot impacts.

Whether or not players in the game stagger, trip and fall when shot (and they should) should be down to the severity of the wound and a random factor representing the individualized response to injury, not caliber. Unless you're talking about 12.7mm rounds, the bullet won't knock you over. Shock and pain from injury (including that from successfully deflected rounds on body armor) might.

And unloading an MG belt into someone's leg will make them combat ineffective in the extreme, to put it clinically. Multiple gunshot wounds there are probably going to sever the femoral, meaning that the victim will bleed out in minutes. Given the likelihood of death in a combat environment, having the target simply die is appropriate enough. If a player was to survive such wounds, he should not be walking or fighting for the rest of the game anyways.

[becubed 24]

I can guarantee you that you defenetly go down after a shot with a .308 Sniper bullet.The impact of a sniper rifle with call .308 would penetratet a lvl 3 also lvl 4 armor from 500 meters away.

In Germany we did a test on our balistic vests class 4,they stop a bullet of a AK-47 from a distance of 1 meter.But getting shot from such a distance or up to 200 meters you defently would be knock off your feet.

You must have bad vests then as the definition of a Lvl3 vest is that it WILL stop a 7.62 FMJ bullet at 847m/s, this is about 50m/s higher than the muzzle velocity from an M40 sniper rifle. A level4 vest will stop an AP bullet at a similar velocity. No normal rifle round will knock a man down. Check the end of

clip to see the effect of a point blank 7.62 shot at a man balancing on one leg.

[ratszo 17]

You must have bad vests then as the definition of a Lvl3 vest is that it WILL stop a 7.62 FMJ bullet at 847m/s, this is about 50m/s higher than the muzzle velocity from an M40 sniper rifle. A level4 vest will stop an AP bullet at a similar velocity. No normal rifle round will knock a man down. Check the end of

clip to see the effect of a point blank 7.62 shot at a man balancing on one leg.

What's the weight for these vests?

[dragon01 902]

When talking about "heavy rounds", I was thinking of sniper rifle bullets of the kind that would be stopped by a SAPI plate. Though really, the effect is only dramatic in case of a shotgun blast to a vest. Still, falling over from being shot is a real phenomenon, if not from the impact itself, then from the shock of being hit. I imagine that a surprise hit to the chest with the force of baseball pitch would cause most people to fall over (of course, there's the problem of making the game tell if you were expecting the impact or not). That could help gameplay, too. If you're hit and fall down, but have some low cover in front of you, you might chose to stay down and avoid a follow-up shot.

And unloading an MG belt into someone's leg will make them combat ineffective in the extreme, to put it clinically. Multiple gunshot wounds there are probably going to sever the femoral, meaning that the victim will bleed out in minutes. Given the likelihood of death in a combat environment, having the target simply die is appropriate enough. If a player was to survive such wounds, he should not be walking or fighting for the rest of the game anyways.

Yes, this should of course be a "mission kill", but not an outright kill. IRL, a medic can do a lot in "minutes". Perhaps the mission score (and results) should depend on sustained causalities, not only on inflicted ones. That would encourage players to save such hopeless cases and drag them back to base (if they can), just like real soldiers would. Just because a trooper can't be on any further use during the mission shouldn't be a reason to leave him for dead. That would, of course, need an expanded medical system, but ArmA needs that anyway.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Dragon01

[metalcraze 290]

Before BIS makes soldiers soak bullets they need to remove and rework the horrible medic system we have now. Because if such vests are added it will just make everyone a super soldier (granted it will go great with 200kg load limit). It's already bad that you can self-heal any injury (except a headshot of course) in 3-4 seconds. You already can run after getting hit in the leg three times and just hitting MMB, imagine if it also takes a lot more bullets to kill a soldier provided he doesn't use FAKs.

Edited July 9, 2013 by metalcraze

[dragon01 902]

Yeah, I mentioned that. ArmA medical system needs to be rebuild from ground up. That's IMO the weakest point of the infantry simulation right now. Sure, tactics generally work and weapons behave realistically, but when it comes to injuries, neither graphics nor mechanics are really up to the task. It's been suggested many times and discussed in detail. I hope BIS takes this into account. The current system is unworkable and patches such as "limit the number of heals" or "limit who can do healing" aren't going to fix it. Even America's Army III does better in that regard (say what you will about AA, but it's medical system is the best one I've seen in a game).