‘Simulation fever’ - No bipods without weapon resting?

[OMAC 254]

Adding weapon resting, especially in crouch and standing modes, would be a very cost-efficient way to psych up existing players, get new customers, and MASSIVELY fire up the community. This an "infantry-focused" game after all. But I'm sure the devs (at least Dwarden) know this. I can think of few things at this time that would fire people up more. This is what it's all about, gentlemen:

[Gaiiden 10]

If a weapon has a bipod modeled, you can simply reduce that weapon's recoil and sway when in prone mode. So you can get a realistic result without any new features at all.

Sorry that's not realistic. A bipod is an extremely stable platform compared to supporting the weapon with your arms in any position. Arms get tired, bipods do not. With BI's new stamina system this should (does?) have an affect. Even supporting a rifle in the prone position causes strain on your arms which causes very slight wobbling - but this wobbling is magnified greatly when looking through a 24x scope. I know for sure that I am far more accurate using a bipod with my real AR15 looking through a 24x scope than I am supporting the rifle with just my arms. The sway/recoil in Arma is definitely less while lying in prone, but in no way as stable as with a bipod.

I realize you may be thinking more of normal infantry weapons, where a red-dot sight or iron sights make the prone position without a bipod seem like a very stable platform - but that's close range. Anyone using the sniper rifles should rightly be crying loudly for proper bipod support.

[maturin 12]

Sorry that's not realistic. A bipod is an extremely stable platform compared to supporting the weapon with your arms in any position. Arms get tired, bipods do not. With BI's new stamina system this should (does?) have an affect. Even supporting a rifle in the prone position causes strain on your arms which causes very slight wobbling - but this wobbling is magnified greatly when looking through a 24x scope. I know for sure that I am far more accurate using a bipod with my real AR15 looking through a 24x scope than I am supporting the rifle with just my arms. The sway/recoil in Arma is definitely less while lying in prone, but in no way as stable as with a bipod.

I realize you may be thinking more of normal infantry weapons, where a red-dot sight or iron sights make the prone position without a bipod seem like a very stable platform - but that's close range. Anyone using the sniper rifles should rightly be crying loudly for proper bipod support.

Not saying that bipod input on prone sway is already implemented, just that it would be child's play to do. Unlike weapon restings, which is really, stupidly difficult to achieve. ACE and TMR have only clunky scripted offerings that are a godsend but really remind you that you're at the mercy of a computer game's foibles.

Wait, do A3 weapons even have bipods displayed on any of the models?

[krazikilla 5]

Seriously, i think, that BIS is focusing on some wrong things. Ofcourse they have to fix still a lot of small and bigger stuff, but just check the daily changelogs. A lot of stuff they are fixing, 90% of the ppl dont even realise. (marked in BOLD in the next Quote)

02-10-2013

EXE rev. 110653

Size: ~211 MB

Potential fix for the dreaded MP PhysX crash - we’d like to confirm it so we can hotfix main branch

Improved: Kamysh driving model

Tweaked: Brakes of tracked vehicles

Improved: Damage handling on wheeled APCs

Added: New type muzzle flash for tanks (applied on T-100)

Rangemaster and competitor have been trained to be able to throw grenades

Fixed: Configuration issue (http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=12840)

Introduced more diversity into already existing vests:

Light (Lite) variants with lesser weight and armor

Medium variants (Rig) with better armor and medium variants (GL) with better explosive protection

Heavy variant for BLUFOR (Special) with limited capacity and greater weight

No changes made into actual soldier equipment. This is just an improvement of the existing vest types.

Better textures for OPFOR and Independent divers

Fixed: Blinking of buoy and helipad

Configured featureSize for LandMark_F to prevent runway lights from fading too soon

Adding more names into rolling credits

Fixed: Light shafts rendering (1st person objects are now rendered correctly)

You can see this in kind of primary things in nearly every changelog.

I just think that the community and future ArmA3 buyers would be much more satisfied and calmed down if finally some new CORE-Features would make it in the game.

Especially beacuse it should be a big deal and its awaited since years + high ranked in the feedback tracker.

EDIT: just another example one day before, could continue on and on:

01-10-2013

EXE rev. 110573

Size: ~604 MB

We have finally found more useful debugging information for the main branch MP PhysX crash. We are still hoping to hotfix it once we have a confirmed fix.

Fixed: Slammer accelerating too fast

Fixed: Slammer should have 5 forward gears

Fixed: Scorcher jumping sometimes

Improved: Varsuk driving physics

Improved: Physics setup of Panther

Tweaked: 120mm cannon firing effect

Fixed: Conversation wasn't terminated fast enough after one of the participants died

Cinema border function is now spawned (can be also ‘called’ by designer)

Fixed some discrepancies between vest models and their capacities.

Introduced some diversity amongst vest types in their weight and capacity.

Independent diver has an adjusted outfit

Several bug fixes for Altis

Entering Offroad from the back no longer results in teleporting to the front

Fixed: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14519 (Treat yourself was not localized)

Fixed: Development build indication in the main menu

Tweaked: Protocol chat messages are a bit lighter

Fixed: Binoculars were invisible in inventory

Chat messages use narrative visualization instead of protocol

Maybe they have too less core-engine-DEVs?

Edited October 3, 2013 by KrAziKilla

[maturin 12]

They are in polish mode, as they should be. The game will mature with new units and (hopefully) new features as the campaign and DLC come out. That's what happened with A2.

The real time for new core features was a year ago. I'm sure I'm not the only person here who would gladly trade new lighting and physics for being able to dig trenches, and foxholes, hide in artillery craters and roadside ditches, and have a fleshed out wounding and AFV crew damage system with cookoffs, etc.

[dmarkwick 261]

This is a poor definition, as the engine itself is made up of "scripts". The idea behind anything being "integrated into the engine" is that the "scripts" are tightly coupled to the engine. Take the new sun rays, written by a member of the community, now added to the "engine". I don't buy the PR excuses of "time/resources/priorities", someone had the time to implement fish swimming, that got prioritised higher than weapon resting.

The engine isn't made of scripts, its code, which is different. Scripts are an interpreted language which makes them slower. Something like the sun rays cannot be done by script.

I don't know the reason why BIS have not implemented a weapon resting functionality, but it seems obvious they don't wish it to be a scripted solution but a hardcoded solution, and they probably got a whole bunch of opinions on how it should work, how it should work for AI etc. How the unit will pivot when bipod/weapon resting is deployed whether new config entries are needed, etc.

[rye1 21]

Wait, do A3 weapons even have bipods displayed on any of the models?

Yessir!

[RushHour 11]

It was obviously a mistake by BIS to have missed this detail. Which is fun since supposedly it´s all about CQC and infantry focused.

It´s almost like having cars but you can´t really drive them. or you can only go front left and back, never right.

[krazikilla 5]

Dwardeeen, to help!

[LoneCrow66 10]

I'm ok with them leaving out the "resting" weapons on people. That is fine. But the bipods for the LGM's and heavier weapons should work on the GROUND at least. Not necessarily on objects yet. A good start would be to be able to deploy the weapons to be ultra steady in prone and on a bipod.

[Vigil Vindex 64]

The engine isn't made of scripts, its code, which is different. Scripts are an interpreted language which makes them slower. Something like the sun rays cannot be done by script.

Semantics, code is code, high level or low level assembly, it is still code.

[iceman77 18]

If a weapon has a bipod modeled, you can simply reduce that weapon's recoil and sway when in prone mode. So you can get a realistic result without any new features at all.

That has to be the shittiest work around I've heard of... it isn't viable at all.

:confused:

[maturin 12]

That has to be the shittiest work around I've heard of... it isn't viable at all.

:confused:

It is the very definition of viable. Explain yourself.

[bad benson 1733]

i think maturin is causing misunderstanding by trying to be unnecessarily accurate (again :p). he was talking just about prone as i understood. although separating it that much from other stances is unneeded, it is true that prone position could be "fixed" like that. but who cares, if the rest doesn't work properly?! well i hope i didn't misunderstand. sorry if i did.

the example of bf3 shows that a "real" implementation of bipods is not just cosmetic. a rested bipod will cause lower turning speed and angle and the gun will be turning around a different axis. and things like unfolding animations add immersion and "realism". if you want to play with numbers go play dungeons and dragons :p. while graphics aren't everything, presentation and optical feedback is a big part of a game. it can be achieved with very small measures but it's important nonetheless. cosmetic =/= dispensable.

[dmarkwick 261]

Semantics, code is code, high level or low level assembly, it is still code.

Um, so you don't understand the difference between script solutions and engine solutions. I don't think it can be dismissed as semantics.

[mr_centipede 31]

Um, so you don't understand the difference between script solutions and engine solutions. I don't think it can be dismissed as semantics.

^ What he said. It's not semantics. There's actual difference

[iceman77 18]

It is the very definition of viable. Explain yourself.

Because we'd only have the "effect" while prone? I couldn't be knelt and rest the weapon on a ledge?

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

There are a lot of moments in ArmA that a weapon-resting feature would change the dynamic of a battle.

Great chest-high walls for cover, I wont use them because the 'Standing' weapon sway is too much for a confident shot at 400m with an XM.

[krazikilla 5]

Actually, as BIS said, they want to implement it in the engine itself, rather then using a script / addon, because it may effect performance.

How about following:

Use a script for it FOR NOW. Before implementing it, test it and find out that, at least this script, isnt really performance hitting at all.

As soon you got time(waitin 12 yrs for now, maybe a few more?) to implement this feature in the core engine, do it and get the script out again.

Ignore the AI for now, because most players would be satified for now, if they would be able to use it for themselfes. AI is very good anyway.

>> So both sides (DEVs and Players = paying customers) would be satisfied. <<

At least the script for it is well known since ACE, ACE2, Iron Front, and several other Mods or single addons.

Edited October 4, 2013 by KrAziKilla

[dmarkwick 261]

Actually, as BIS said, they want to implement it in the engine itself, rather then using a script / addon, because it may effect performance.

How about following:

Use a script for it FOR NOW. Before implementing it, test it and find out that, at least this script, isnt really performance hitting at all.

As soon you got time to implement this feature in the core engine, do it and get the script out again.

Ignore the AI for now, because most players would be satified for now, if they would be able to use it for themselfes. AI is very good anyway.

>> So both sides (DEVs and Players = paying customers) would be satisfied. <<

At least the script for it is well known since ACE, ACE2, Iron Front, and several other Mods or single addons.

That would be a good idea, but I would suspect the reason BIS don't do this would be a general policy one. As BIS would like to squeeze as much performance as possible, this means that as much as possible be done in the engine. Weapon resting might sound to us like a no-brainer exception, but very probably there would be several other "no-brainer" exceptions that would also qualify, and from there the performance starts to be (slightly) drained, and the everything-in-the-engine policy is eroded.

[maturin 12]

Because we'd only have the "effect" while prone? I couldn't be knelt and rest the weapon on a ledge?

I said bipod, not weapon resting. The thread has distinguished between the two from the start.

If you have a raised object to rest your weapon on, you don't even need a bipod, and any feature falls under the category of weapon resting.

>> So both sides (DEVs and Players = paying customers) would be satisfied. <<

At least the script for it is well known since ACE, ACE2, Iron Front, and several other Mods or single addons.

Because the scripts usually aren't good enough. More like 80% functional. It's can be fiddly and disorienting trying to finesse your barrel into place along a 3D object that is probably out of your field of view and possibly won't even be noticed by the script. And then you move your weapon and are no longer sure whether you are resting it. It's one of those things that's simple and intuitive in real life but damned hard in a gamespace.

In ACE, for example, an ill-timed press of the weapon rest key could plunge your framerate into single digits as the script desperately searched for a proper surface. TMR seems to have a better system going, but with reduced functionality, as I can't rest my barrel along the side of vertical objects like trees and walls.

Edited October 4, 2013 by maturin

[krazikilla 5]

I said bipod, not weapon resting. The thread has distinguished between the two from the start.

If you have a raised object to rest your weapon on, you don't even need a bipod, and any feature falls under the category of weapon resting.

Because the scripts usually aren't good enough. More like 80% functional. It's can be fiddly and disorienting trying to finesse your barrel into place along a 3D object that is probably out of your field of view and possibly won't even be noticed by the script. And then you move your weapon and are no longer sure whether you are resting it. It's one of those things that's simple and intuitive in real life but damned hard in a gamespace.

In ACE, for example, an ill-timed press of the weapon rest key could plunge your framerate into single digits as the script desperately searched for a proper surface. TMR seems to have a better system going, but with reduced functionality, as I can't rest my barrel along the side of vertical objects like trees and walls.

So What? You think that engine elements are always 100% functional? If we would want all featuers 100% functional, with everything you can think off around it, fitting everytime, we would still play "Pong".

But even it might be unimagineable by you, we still have cars, tanks, planes, openable doors, grenade throwing, diving in the game.

Oh, i dont see my hands opening doors and doors never make sounds - Delete it! its not fully functionable. Oh i cannot roll my grenades into a room - Delete it! Oh, the tanks have no interior - Delete it! You can continue this list endlessly.

If you say ACE weaponrest was 80% functionalbe, it was still enough for nearly everyone. Done by BIS it could raise to 90% functionability. Also in games which have done it totally nice like Red Orchestra 2, its not workin 100% and in some cases it is still a bit messy.

I hope its clear now, that your statement is simply wrong :)

So lets better all together tell BIS that we want it in, reasonable working, instead of a 100% working weaponrest which most likely we wont see in another 10 years.

Edited October 4, 2013 by KrAziKilla

[maturin 12]

Calm down and realize that your argument is completely stupid. Delete core gameplay elements because of cosmetic problems. Right. Totally comparable with a (relatively) fringe feature that has never been in the series.

I am simply explaining the likely reason why BIS has not gone the scripted route, and reminding everyone that weapon resting is not a goddamn slam dunk.

I'm willing to bed that Red Orchestra's small maps are filled with objects tagged with invisible "rest barrel here" nodes. But now we're on Altis, with millions of irregular polygon rocks that we can crawl all over in 18! different stance positions.

[chrisb 196]

Weapon rest addon, its simple to use, rest on almost anything that would be a reasonable surface to rest on. There is virtually no performance hit, in-fact I don’t think I have ever seen a hit, only perhaps on really poorly un-optimised pc’s, plus its simple to do, well for most it is..

If bis do it, great, but really, use the addon, play the game, and stop waiting around for bis to put every small detail into the game, they may never bother at all..:rolleyes:

[krazikilla 5]

Weapon rest addon, its simple to use, rest on almost anything that would be a reasonable surface to rest on. There is virtually no performance hit, in-fact I don’t think I have ever seen a hit, only perhaps on really poorly un-optimised pc’s, plus its simple to do, well for most it is..

If bis do it, great, but really, use the addon, play the game, and stop waiting around for bis to put every small detail into the game, they may never bother at all..:rolleyes:

Sure, and now tell the nice public server hosters which lot of people like to play on, to use the addon aswell.

Immidiatly it wouldnt be that public anymore, because when you try to join u get a nice error message and you would have to search for theyr homepage, find out which addons in which versions are allowed or a must-be and then find the addon in the correct version to download and install it.