Audio Tweaking (dev branch)

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Sorry, I kinda had a question that I didn't get to ask, due to the fact I ended up at a Gunshow during the stream. Besides that, though, figured I was ask.

The audio features are starting to come in, but I have a question, in regards to the possibility of 3D moving sound like what the L_ES mod has accomplished. Will you guys plan on adding any kind of actual reverb? And if not due to performance, would you be willing to make it an Audio Option? Say a 3D version of tails like what L_ES does, and the regular kind, except have the option to use either?

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

Sorry, I kinda had a question that I didn't get to ask, due to the fact I ended up at a Gunshow during the stream. Besides that, though, figured I was ask.

The audio features are starting to come in, but I have a question, in regards to the possibility of 3D moving sound like what the L_ES mod has accomplished. Will you guys plan on adding any kind of actual reverb? And if not due to performance, would you be willing to make it an Audio Option? Say a 3D version of tails like what L_ES does, and the regular kind, except have the option to use either?

This. Fps hit or nay. Having to use a mod to do it, that hits fps and you can't get to play in servers not using it. is way way worse.

Having it as an option in game to use at your discretion . Be as good as it gets.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

This. Fps hit or nay. Having to use a mod to do it, that hits fps and you can't get to play in servers not using it. is way way worse.

Having it as an option in game to use at your discretion . Be as good as it gets.

And it allows those who's PC can handle it to handle it, and those who can't with say, a mod that does this, would probably be able to handle it if it were not addon sourced.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

And it allows those who's PC can handle it to handle it, and those who can't with say, a mod that does this, would probably be able to handle it if it were not addon sourced.

Win win really considering the alternatives.

[Fushko 59]

As the Marksmen DLC gets closer, I would like to raise awareness for this nasty sound issue that plagues ALL the weapons. (Reloading sounds not perfectly synchronized with the animation).

Please audio guys, consider doing something about it! Here's a ticket which explains the problem.

[Frankdatank1218 39]

For the weapons with which this audio overhaul is working, it's fantastic! Some weapons don't seem fully overhauled yet, I get that, it's not finished. However, I do wonder if you have a "tail" for inside rooms, it sounds different in rooms but nothing like real life or competing sound mods which have a loud, abrupt, echoey reverb. I do hope in-room is not considered near finished or that you don't plan to do it. Gunfights indoors should be terrifyingly deafening affairs (unsuppressed fire of course).

[megagoth1702 252]

[...]Gunfights indoors should be terrifyingly deafening affairs (unsuppressed fire of course).

Turn up your game volume enough and you will go deaf eventually. ;)

I just wish the devs much luck to produce GOOD SOUNDING samples, which are properly balanced (discharge-volumes, L/R, volumes of tails, proper utilization of the frequency spectrum). The volume knob belongs to the players. JSRS for example makes his sounds super super loud and in the process destroys fidelity, because audio wave peaks are getting cut off. If I turn down the volume to compensate for this loudness, all you are left with is distorted, weak, boring sound.

So again - let BIS produce high quality sounds and don't worry about their "volume", because you control the volume.

QUESTION: What do the audio devs use as monitors & headphones?

Thanks.

[maturin 12]

I assume the current state of affairs with supersonic cracks is a WiP?

Just remember that a sonic crack cannot be represented by ho-hum, underwhelming sounds. This is a bullet breaking the sound barrier. It's as loud as the gunshot itself. It hurts your ears. It almost just killed you.

Edited March 9, 2015 by maturin

[hardsiesta 1]

The volume knob belongs to the players. JSRS for example makes his sounds super super loud and in the process destroys fidelity, because audio wave peaks are getting cut off. If I turn down the volume to compensate for this loudness, all you are left with is distorted, weak, boring sound.

Clipping is obviously too much, but other than that, doesn't "leave volume to listeners" mean exactly leaving/designing the audio "uneven" or "uncompressed"?

I always liked ArmA's audio because it's relatively dynamic compared to the "compressed" or even audio in pretty much every other shooter. The audio image always felt more "alive" than even the "best" you can find in game audio, because of that, despite arguably worse samples and stuff. Although comparing to "hollywood" samples is kinda wrong anyway. IMO Arma always had it quite right; You could keep the volume up to hear footsteps but wouldn't lose hearing when something blew right next to you... But you still ought to have clean trousers to change into :)

Anyway, I trust they keep it right like they have. They shouldn't compress or make anything much louder. An indoor shot doesn't need to be louder to listeners in same room or building, in my opinion. It should have the appropriate environmental effects though, and occlusion and filtering to outsiders. Ear protection is an interesting question too.

I assume the current state of affairs with supersonic cracks is a WiP?

There is no way to say this nicely without losing the necessary emphasis. The new sonic snap sample is a bad joke.

For this above all things, Bohemia needs to forgo the ho-hum, underwhelming sounds. This is a bullet breaking the sound barrier. It's as loud as the gunshot itself. It hurts your ears. It almost just killed you.

I hope so, but what they did was change the old "always near" crack to the new "always far" crack. So I wouldn't call them a "joke", albeit the varied pitch sounds seem a bit off. Not every crack you hear are supposed to be flying right beside you, and whether that crack is deafening or not depends on how close to your ear or mic it's flying. And its direction.

The old crack was alright for a dry crack at close range, but only to some extent. The game never had a "proper" close range sonic boom anyway, probably mostly due to lack of environmental effects. I hope they do that right after proper long range cracks, and figure some way to cross these two by distance.

[megagoth1702 252]

Clipping is obviously too much, but other than that, doesn't "leave volume to listeners" mean exactly leaving/designing the audio "uneven" or "uncompressed"?

Do gun shots need to be even? I don't think so. There is a discharge part, the very first sound, the BANG, which is the LOUDEST sound in the whole process, everything after that should lose volume over time. Like a curve going down. Listen to the sounds and take a look at these pictures:

JSRS (v2.2) MX:

https://app.box.com/s/vke92xs2n80ncbxkyn2h5zdl6oel33l6

http://i.imgur.com/quq3YDe.jpg

BIS MX:

https://app.box.com/s/1j0cn95tvvzcd6drbfedr9yz82c6av3j

http://i.imgur.com/ddCLp8G.jpg

MegaSound MX:

https://app.box.com/s/i89f5bt5no72nzg0vd10gkjglqgtl4hb

http://i.imgur.com/8lA0SOD.jpg

I suggest you download the files because the "preview" is not pure WAV but converted to low quality MP3, which takes away fidelity. As you can clearly hear and see JSRS is the loudest here, unfortunateley BIS also joined in the loudness war and both sounds' "first environmental reverb/response" before the tail is just as loud as the discharge part, which to me makes no sense. The bang should always be louter than everything else. MegaSound focusses on dynamic range, loud and quiet parts, which means OVERALL the sample sounds quieter compared to the others, but if you turn up your volume to good levels, it sounds best.

Games like INSURGENCY have their whole sound designed like that and you don't notice that if listened at the same Windows volume (like 50) insurgency would overall sound quiter than arma3 with JSRS BUT since you turn up your volume the game sounds great!

On topic: The bullet cracks are good in volume but sound weird and unconvincing. I feel like there is some dynamic processing going on and the sample gets stretched or compressed depending on speed(?). The "original" previous samples were better to my ears, even though they were static.

The weapon tails OVERLAP during fast firing sequences and create flanging effects, this needs to be fixed. Cut the tail when a new shot is fired or produce better tails that don't create flanging as obviously.

Edited March 9, 2015 by megagoth1702

[Bouben 3]

Do gun shots need to be even? I don't think so. There is a discharge part, the very first sound, the BANG, which is the LOUDEST sound in the whole process, everything after that should lose volume over time. Like a curve going down. Listen to the sounds and take a look at these pictures:

JSRS (v2.2) MX:

https://app.box.com/s/vke92xs2n80ncbxkyn2h5zdl6oel33l6

http://i.imgur.com/quq3YDe.jpg

BIS MX:

https://app.box.com/s/1j0cn95tvvzcd6drbfedr9yz82c6av3j

http://i.imgur.com/ddCLp8G.jpg

MegaSound MX:

https://app.box.com/s/i89f5bt5no72nzg0vd10gkjglqgtl4hb

http://i.imgur.com/8lA0SOD.jpg

I suggest you download the files because the "preview" is not pure WAV but converted to low quality MP3, which takes away fidelity. As you can clearly hear and see JSRS is the loudest here, unfortunateley BIS also joined in the loudness war and both sounds' "first environmental reverb/response" before the tail is just as loud as the discharge part, which to me makes no sense. The bang should always be louter than everything else. MegaSound focusses on dynamic range, loud and quiet parts, which means OVERALL the sample sounds quieter compared to the others, but if you turn up your volume to good levels, it sounds best.

Games like INSURGENCY have their whole sound designed like that and you don't notice that if listened at the same Windows volume (like 50) insurgency would overall sound quiter than arma3 with JSRS BUT since you turn up your volume the game sounds great!

On topic: The bullet cracks are good in volume but sound weird and unconvincing. I feel like there is some dynamic processing going on and the sample gets stretched or compressed depending on speed(?). The "original" previous samples were better to my ears, even though they were static.

The weapon tails OVERLAP during fast firing sequences and create flanging effects, this needs to be fixed. Cut the tail when a new shot is fired or produce better tails that don't create flanging as obviously.

Too much of a dynamic range is potentially dangerous to ears with heavy headphone use. Just saying.

[bonham 10]

I noticed that sometimes sounds are also muffled when the source is obscured, for example by a building. Is this the long lost audio occlusion or rather a bug which seems to occur and muffle SFX randomly?

[maturin 12]

I hope so, but what they did was change the old "always near" crack to the new "always far" crack. So I wouldn't call them a "joke", albeit the varied pitch sounds seem a bit off.

Oh, I see. So the close-by sonic crack has been removed for the moment.

When I was testing, all the rounds were within a meter or so of my head, for sure.

[megagoth1702 252]

Too much of a dynamic range is potentially dangerous to ears with heavy headphone use. Just saying.

Dynamic range has nothing to do with ear damage. Dont mix up topics. Throwing around statements without proper research & a bit of common sense does not help.

If you mean that for example footsteps are super quiet and a 120mm cannon gives a sudden loud POP BANG that blows your ears? It would need a volume increase of like 60dB to really start hurting your ears OVER TIME - not just once, but like 20-50 times in a row. And who do you think would ever mix a video game like that? Correct. Nobody. I use headphones all the time and no game has ever made me go deaf or hurt my ears by using DYNAMIC RANGE in their sound. It was the other way around - a very pleasing experience, like Battlefield 3 or Insurgency.

---------- Post added at 11:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

Another video about audio. Has NOTHING TO DO with dynamic range. Just loudness and stuff.

Edited March 9, 2015 by megagoth1702

[bullhorn 18]

I don't understand what dynamic range has to do with anything. Dynamic range is just a combination of words that says 'difference between the loudest and quietest sound'. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this discussion because you're just talking about loudness.

From what I gathered from this page, it looks like BI just need to hire a mastering engineer and work with conjunction with a designer to bring sounds to the correct balance. From my point of view, all ARMA sounds are mixed amazingly loud and my game sound is always set around 30% or lower, as if they mixed the samples to be played through a laptop's built-in speakers or something.

[megagoth1702 252]

I don't understand what dynamic range has to do with anything. Dynamic range is just a combination of words that says 'difference between the loudest and quietest sound'. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this discussion because you're just talking about loudness.

From what I gathered from this page, it looks like BI just need to hire a mastering engineer and work with conjunction with a designer to bring sounds to the correct balance. From my point of view, all ARMA sounds are mixed amazingly loud and my game sound is always set around 30% or lower, as if they mixed the samples to be played through a laptop's built-in speakers or something.

Difference between the loudest and quietest sound over time. :p The video was not intended to explain any dynamic range stuff.

But if I was to talk about it - dynamic range in the gun sample. The very loud discharge part and the quiet environmental response -> dynamics -> sounds better than brutally limited sounds.

Agree on the laptop speaker thing though. :D

And I ask again - what is the BIS sound guy's audio setup? Headphones? Monitor speakers? Which ones? Technical details are welcome!

I ask again:

[blu3sman 11]

Watched the video and I have to agree, BIs sample makes no sense. They decided to split sounds into discharge and environmental "tail", but the discharge sample itself consists of all kinds of noise.

[hardsiesta 1]

Oh, I see. So the close-by sonic crack has been removed for the moment.

When I was testing, all the rounds were within a meter or so of my head, for sure.

That's not what I meant. I was trying to repeat what I wrote a page or two back, where I said perhaps more clearly that there's preference to the old samples most likely because they may have been closer to what a near pass would sound like. But the new samples sound much more like it would sound like, listened from further away.

I think the cracks sound way better than before, if you listen a firefight from a "safe distance". The pitch variance seems milder and much better like that as well. But the same sound doesn't work just as well when you're getting shot at yourself, and I can see if someone liked the old better because of that. So I hope that with the attenuation and everything they're trying to get the distant sounds worked out first, and then make the close sounds as good as possible.

Dynamic range has nothing to do with ear damage. Dont mix up topics. Throwing around statements without proper research & a bit of common sense does not help.

If you mean that for example footsteps are super quiet and a 120mm cannon gives a sudden loud POP BANG that blows your ears? It would need a volume increase of like 60dB to really start hurting your ears OVER TIME - not just once, but like 20-50 times in a row. And who do you think would ever mix a video game like that? Correct. Nobody. I use headphones all the time and no game has ever made me go deaf or hurt my ears by using DYNAMIC RANGE in their sound. It was the other way around - a very pleasing experience, like Battlefield 3 or Insurgency.

The sounds in BF are great, but I always perceived it as the example of wall of sound in games. Their "dynamic range" means their special technique which is basically an advanced audio culling and compression method AFAIK. That's why it's pleasing. But it's also even as hell, I never shat my pants when something suddenly blew me up, like in ArmA. I just hope they don't make ArmA sound like that. A budged and sounds as polished (for their respective purposes) would be great, but not the pleasing movie experience. Those pleasant and even sound images are great for easy listening, but don't give shit of an impression of authenticity, or a real firefight which obviously sounds both dynamic and unpleasant as hell.

That's an interesting video. The beginning part is a good example of at least the illusion of loudness, the longer sample makes. The second part demonstrates what I've thought since A3 came out: The mechanical sounds of the shot seem very overemphasized. It seems like a fashionable thing to do in games these days. Glad they made the mechanical parts as loud as the shot instead of making the shot as quiet as the mechanical parts, tho. The mechanical sounds are very nice, but they should be closer to footsteps than the discharge imo. I hope they take that into consideration.

From what I gathered from this page, it looks like BI just need to hire a mastering engineer and work with conjunction with a designer to bring sounds to the correct balance. From my point of view, all ARMA sounds are mixed amazingly loud and my game sound is always set around 30% or lower, as if they mixed the samples to be played through a laptop's built-in speakers or something.

Yes for balance in your usual movie or the studio recording of your favorite band. No way for Arma. You're way off with your laptop example; That's exactly why they mix and master for balance in modern recordings, so that it sounds as pleasant as possible in as wide variety of playback devices as possible, especially the bad ones. On the other hand, ArmA would sound worse than anything else on it, because it has different and better priorities.

This has been exactly the highlight of Arma's audio: Loud is loud. And it's reasonably so. I can clearly hear the wind and footsteps, and all that, while the louds aren't too loud or annoying, but intimidating and credible. Can't say the same for typical "mastering" on pretty much anything. Definitely not BF (even if the sounds are the most crisp and detailed).

Oh yeah and what I actually came to post about...

Isn't the delayed "pop" sounds in firefights supposed to be the gunshot being reflected from distant surrounding terrain? I was just wondering why it seems to kick in when I get into urban areas instead. Also, if the reflection isn't going to have actual "reflection" for the time being, it would probably be good if the echo was dead center instead of panned to the other side that doesn't change with directions. Thanks.

Edited March 10, 2015 by HardSiesta

[bullhorn 18]

By the way, the new reverb effects + rain are really broken. It sounds like there's a phaser in the mix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CjhojiCsf8

Couldn't reproduce it on my own server while running around Altis with the same modpack (vanilla audio), it might be related to the items used to create the base, but I'm not sure.

Edited March 10, 2015 by BullHorn

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

That's not what I meant. I was trying to repeat what I wrote a page or two back, where I said perhaps more clearly that there's preference to the old samples most likely because they may have been closer to what a near pass would sound like. But the new samples sound much more like it would sound like, listened from further away.

I think the cracks sound way better than before, if you listen a firefight from a "safe distance". The pitch variance seems milder and much better like that as well. But the same sound doesn't work just as well when you're getting shot at yourself, and I can see if someone liked the old better because of that. So I hope that with the attenuation and everything they're trying to get the distant sounds worked out first, and then make the close sounds as good as possible.

The sounds in BF are great, but I always perceived it as the example of wall of sound in games. Their "dynamic range" means their special technique which is basically an advanced audio culling and compression method AFAIK. That's why it's pleasing. But it's also even as hell, I never shat my pants when something suddenly blew me up, like in ArmA. I just hope they don't make ArmA sound like that. A budged and sounds as polished (for their respective purposes) would be great, but not the pleasing movie experience. Those pleasant and even sound images are great for easy listening, but don't give shit of an impression of authenticity, or a real firefight which obviously sounds both dynamic and unpleasant as hell.

That's an interesting video. The beginning part is a good example of at least the illusion of loudness, the longer sample makes. The second part demonstrates what I've thought since A3 came out: The mechanical sounds of the shot seem very overemphasized. It seems like a fashionable thing to do in games these days. Glad they made the mechanical parts as loud as the shot instead of making the shot as quiet as the mechanical parts, tho. The mechanical sounds are very nice, but they should be closer to footsteps than the discharge imo. I hope they take that into consideration.

Yes for balance in your usual movie or the studio recording of your favorite band. No way for Arma. You're way off with your laptop example; That's exactly why they mix and master for balance in modern recordings, so that it sounds as pleasant as possible in as wide variety of playback devices as possible, especially the bad ones. On the other hand, ArmA would sound worse than anything else on it, because it has different and better priorities.

This has been exactly the highlight of Arma's audio: Loud is loud. And it's reasonably so. I can clearly hear the wind and footsteps, and all that, while the louds aren't too loud or annoying, but intimidating and credible. Can't say the same for typical "mastering" on pretty much anything. Definitely not BF (even if the sounds are the most crisp and detailed).

Oh yeah and what I actually came to post about...

Isn't the delayed "pop" sounds in firefights supposed to be the gunshot being reflected from distant surrounding terrain? I was just wondering why it seems to kick in when I get into urban areas instead. Also, if the reflection isn't going to have actual "reflection" for the time being, it would probably be good if the echo was dead center instead of panned to the other side that doesn't change with directions. Thanks.

To be honest, when you have your volume up to the correct amount, you generally should jump a little when you get blown up. I reckon they're not trying to make it sound exactly like real life, but an IED, or say, tank shell taking you out should be generally a frightening experience, via sound.

[megagoth1702 252]

The sounds in BF are great, but I always perceived it as the example of wall of sound in games. Their "dynamic range" means their special technique which is basically an advanced audio culling and compression method AFAIK. That's why it's pleasing. But it's also even as hell, I never shat my pants when something suddenly blew me up, like in ArmA.

There is no compression on the final audio stream in Battlefield 3/4. All they do is sound culling and it might seem like compression, but it does not work with the sample volume but with the real life dB values of the stuff they recorded. They look at the real life dB values of sounds and if a big explosion happens next to you, they reduce the volume of other stuff around you, distant stuff gets muted completely, unless it's just as loud (a very close helicopter fly by or another explosion, also your own gun never gets silenced, only attenuated). If you never shat your pants - Play BF3 (the best sounding BF) CQ large 64 with "Home Cinema" audio setting, which has the highest dynamic range, raise your volume so that your OWN GUN shot is fucking loud, just on the verge of hurting your ears, then turn it down a little bit. Play. The next time you get RPG'd or a tank rolls by - you will be amazed by the sound and get scared when something really big blows up next to you.

I also argue that this IS realistic. Human hearing does sound culling/attenuation itself. Ears become sensitized to a specific loudness. I was at a concert yesterday (no ear protection, stupid of me), after the concert the normal conversations I had with my buddy were quiter for like 3-5 minutes. Then they became "normal volume" again. When I sleep with ear protection and take it out the next morning, everything seems very loud. This you can try yourself. So I'd say the way BF3 handles it is pretty realistic.

At the end of the day this is what every game designer will go after - GOOD SOUND. Pleasing sound. With realistic/cinematic tendencies, but PLEASING good sound. Out of 10 arma fans I bet 6 will prefer the pleasing sound over sound with extreme dynamic range. People use teamspeak, play with speakers & neighbors sometimes. I hate when I can't hear my people on TS, lower the game and then can't hear the game properly.

---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------

By the way, the new reverb effects + rain are really broken. It sounds like there's a phaser in the mix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CjhojiCsf8

Couldn't reproduce it on my own server while running around Altis with the same modpack (vanilla audio), it might be related to the items used to create the base, but I'm not sure.

Great video & example! I am sure there are multiple object that the rain falls on and the "rain on object" sound (which they only have 1 of) starts just after the previous one - phasing occurs. They have to use multiple rain on object samples, or cut the one they have in a few parts, and randomly play them instead of "1 sample for everything, now!"

[St. Jimmy 272]

By the way, the new reverb effects + rain are really broken. It sounds like there's a phaser in the mix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CjhojiCsf8

Couldn't reproduce it on my own server while running around Altis with the same modpack (vanilla audio), it might be related to the items used to create the base, but I'm not sure.

Sounds pretty similar to the multiple objects near and rain falling on them issue:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=20896

I bet it's the objects somehow. I've heard that kind of rain sound on some bases.

[bullhorn 18]

Looks like it is. There's a bunch of vehicles inside that base!

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Sounds pretty similar to the multiple objects near and rain falling on them issue:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=20896

I bet it's the objects somehow. I've heard that kind of rain sound on some bases.

suggesting a sound pool, which selects similar, but different rain hollowness sounds, this way it's not picking the same one for all the helicopters.

---------- Post added at 17:56 ---------- Previous post was at 16:06 ----------

Ok, so about the Dev Update today, the sounds are great, especially the ASP. However, what stands out to me both Positively, and Negatively, are the tails. (More specifically, the DLC weapons tails)

This again, touches on the fact that it's 2D. With the Cyrus, i can tell that the tail blends first to the left, then to the right of my headphones, giving the impression that it's 3D, but turning around, you can tell that it's just a static sample as i turn around and listen for positional difference. There is none. It's a great effect, it is, but for it to feel real, there needs to be an option for say, a 3D soundscape of these tails in the available environments. It's awesome, truly, but if it were actually moving through the landscape, it'd be outstanding, it'd be super immersive. This is awesome work, props to the Audio team for sure, it's getting there.

[megagoth1702 252]

Asking for a coefficient for volume groups.

For example:

cfgSounds {

blabal

volumeMultiplier = 0.73;

;}

So all sounds defined in cfgSounds get their volume multiplied with 0.73.

This would mean DEVs and modders can balance volumes by GROUPS, not one by one.

cfgAmmo

cfgWeapons

cfgVehicles

cfgSounds

etc. Would make it really easy!

Thank you.