Not liking the new Fatigue system - Jogging should not be penalised

[chortles 263]

as someone who refused to use ACE just because of its fatigue system

This is one of the reasons that I actually use "ACE" and "milsim" pejoratively.

[Cyper 18]

'' It's really about making it fun. All games should be fun. I have said fun three times there...'' :rolleyes:

I think that there should be a penalty for sprinting long distances. There should also be a penalty for jogging - but that means a realistic penalty, not over-done. In arma 2 you could jog forever without any real penalties. You could run across the whole map is you wished. Now that is really to frickin' unrealistic. That isn't even up to debate, and it shouldn't be optional either.

[St. Jimmy 272]

I think what we have now is a good compromise. At least you don't pass out like in ACE force you to stop for a while but I don't mind if they go even that far.

[chortles 263]

if i was working for BI i would force myself to never read the forums. for some reason nowadays people act so entitled and seem to think they have a say in everything just because they payed a few bucks for it.

Speaking as someone who's played Star Trek Online and seen the horror stories, official forums are probably the worst forums for a given game with an online scene as far as quality of posting and "personalities", especially if they even vaguely believe (and probably because they do believe) that a dev will listen.

I have to admit though, I absolutely enjoyed some of the dev comments last year (and in a few cases this year) when devs seemed to dare to push back against certain forums members here who didn't take it well when a dev told them "no"... :lol: Though of course, others did take it well or even rolled with it.

EDIT: Okay, posts like the one below this one are also why I use the terms "ACE" and "milsim" pejoratively.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Chortles

[Conure 10]

I spent 4 years in 2PWRR infantry battalion and it was shite (not all of it) - spent my time either too hot or too cold. Seriously, if you lot want realism play with your feet in a bucket of icy water for hours on end, or alternatively sit on a radiator and sweat your balls off over the pc.

who cares about fatigue, it's the battle simulation we're after...you can't simulate the kind of fatigue a soldier faces in a game so it's not worth trying to do so with silly effects. Even 12 hour marathons of battlefield 3 don't compare with a 48 hour trench building exercise!

On a serious note, if you want ultra realism try running on a treadmill whenever you move in game. I've started doing that with a hairdryer blowing on me in a desert climates, the realism is second to none but my heating bill is fucked

[Wolfstriked 11]

It is, currently walking with rifle lowered makes player recover slightly faster (-0.00504/s compared to -0.00500/s), but unfortunately jogging with rifle lowered is currently significantly more tiring that raised (0.00383/s vs 0.00288/s)! When standing still it makes no difference (-0.0200/s).

Wow that is kool as I didn't know it was modeled.Now if the devs would make it so that smaller weapons increase stamina less when shouldered compared to the heavy weapons we can start having at least some reason to choose a lighter weapon.They would need to model additive effects to when the weapons are shouldered.....I hope they do that before release or it will never happen.

---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 PM ----------

Immersion or stamina have nothing to do with it.

A. It works like a safety which is sadly not present by default in the game (if you will click there will be no misfire)

B. You don't want to walk around other people with your gun raised and pointing it at their faces whenever you face them - it just makes everyone really uncomfortable - what if you will click by mistake?

C. Gun obscures quite a lot of view since there's no low-ready stance and if lowering it gets you additional 20% FOV - why not?

I do agree with you that putting weapon down is to not by accident shoot off a friendlies head but stamina does have a huge part of why soldiers are rarely seen walking or running with weapons at the ready.And of course many players lower it for their own immersion and that of fellow players,at least I do that.;)

[Cyper 18]

I spent 4 years in 2PWRR infantry battalion and it was shite (not all of it) - spent my time either too hot or too cold. Seriously, if you lot want realism play with your feet in a bucket of icy water for hours on end, or alternatively sit on a radiator and sweat your balls off over the pc.

who cares about fatigue, it's the battle simulation we're after...you can't simulate the kind of fatigue a soldier faces in a game so it's not worth trying to do so with silly effects. Even 12 hour marathons of battlefield 3 don't compare with a 48 hour trench building exercise!

On a serious note, if you want ultra realism try running on a treadmill whenever you move in game. I've started doing that with a hairdryer blowing on me in a desert climates, the realism is second to none but my heating bill is fucked

Fatigue is important. Being able to run across the whole map without breaking a sweat is just crazy. Arma needs some sort of features that gives the player a penalty.

[bigpickle 0]

Fatigue is important. Being able to run across the whole map without breaking a sweat is just crazy. Arma needs some sort of features that gives the player a penalty.

They gonna add the clap too, prostitutes and soldiers have a connection that dates back as long a professional soldiery, or how about we all take a BFT as a tutorial and if you don't pass then you don't get to play until you do.

This isn't a life simulator ffs, granted some moderate fatigue like in ArmA 2 is good but what we have currently is shite plain and simple because of the the awful volumes and loops, if they are fixed it would be better but chances are they will remain.

@Conure - You nailed the life right there, cant remember one time i was comfortable, and the hot hairdryer thing, that's how i describe to ppl the wind in Iraq in the summer LOL.

[metalcraze 290]

ArmA2 had hookers FYI. Which is not relevant to the topic at hand in any way. Let's also complain that we can't pee into the flightsuit while on a mission in DCS A-10C - since that's oh so comparable to game's goals.

You are trying too hard bro. Fatigue is a real life challenge any human deals with on a daily basis. You can whine at laws of physics all you want.

Edited May 12, 2013 by metalcraze

[Sbats 1]

Part of the fun in Arma is strategically planning your attack so said issues aren't an issue. The game is about authenticity. Compared to ACE mod the current state of fatigue in Arma 3 is very forgiving. By adding that authenticity to fatigue in Arma just means your going to have to use your brain before you attack, and not rambo in like you would in BF3 (closest arcade game).

I don't see why new players don't understand the concept of this game, its about bringing the most authentic experience to gaming! Trying to make it more arcade defeats its purpose! Arma is unique in the experience its trying to create, get excited about the aspect of challenge fatigue creates; how you can counter an opponent based on your stratagem - ooo thats a hill he's at the bottom, I can follow this ridge and wait until he gets to the top, ooooo he's out of breath...

Stop trying to make the game "easier" and start challenging yourself.

Either way, adding an easy switch option for fatigue to make the newbies happy would be good for they current play style and any mods that would require it for their authenticity.

[malkekoen 17]

who cares about fatigue, it's the battle simulation we're after...you can't simulate the kind of fatigue a soldier faces in a game so it's not worth trying to do so with silly effects. Even 12 hour marathons of battlefield 3 don't compare with a 48 hour trench building exercise!

Maybe you could consider fatigue to be a part of the battle simulation. In fact I would say a very important part even. Why is it not possible to simulate fatigue? I think BiS does a great job so far... People want suppression effects, wounded effects, etc. But that is fine or what?

[dmarkwick 261]

The main thing to remember guys is that the vanilla fatigue has got to fit in with whatever SP gameplay comes with the game. A lot of times this consideration is not thought of, but any ingame option/feature/enhancement, has got to be considered in context with the campaign/storyline/tone that BIS wish to provide as the "main" gameplay. WE know the main gameplay is open & flexible, but the vanilla out-the-box game has to perform under all option configurations.

Some part of the campaign might be interested in a particular pace of movement for example, which could be screwed up with a fatigue system, or it's disablement.

Luckily, the game is moddable as we all know and a fatigue sytem/configuration can be made to suit all tastes :)

[afp 1]

Fatigue is important. Being able to run across the whole map without breaking a sweat is just crazy. Arma needs some sort of features that gives the player a penalty.

Actually if you can jogg around the whole map in less then half an hour, the fatigue penalty is not really realistic at all.

[metalcraze 290]

True. BIS needs to make a harsher fatigue - or better yet - encumbrance penalty. Vignette and blur are ok and all but what's the point in them when you will be able to cross Altis without a single stop anyway? If anything you will just make people switch postprocessing to very low or off to get rid of that.

Need to force player to stop/walk and take a break from jogging. Not after running for 100m obviously. Although with a Javelin, backpack loaded with mags and satchels and carrying an anti-material sniper rifle you shouldn't be able to run at all.

People who complain about ACE implementation (which is sweet) clearly want to carry exactly that load since anything under 20 kgs (which is: rifle, pistol and full mag slots for both + grenades) isn't penalized in ACE unless you run like for many kilometers.

Edited May 12, 2013 by metalcraze

[Tonci87 163]

And that is what the fatigue system should really be about. It should penalise players that overload themselves with fancy gear. Noone should feel that grabbing a Javelin + 50.cal Sniper rifle and going rambo is a good idea.

In the end this encourages teamwork just like the ACE System does. A MG or AT gunner is happy if a few buddy have still some space to carry additional ammo for him. Nobody can go and defeat the enemy alone, he needs a few buddys to help him.

[bad benson 1733]

The main thing to remember guys is that the vanilla fatigue has got to fit in with whatever SP gameplay comes with the game. A lot of times this consideration is not thought of, but any ingame option/feature/enhancement, has got to be considered in context with the campaign/storyline/tone that BIS wish to provide as the "main" gameplay. WE know the main gameplay is open & flexible, but the vanilla out-the-box game has to perform under all option configurations.

just out of interest. what would that exactly be? besides the pp effects and sounds (which are "art assets" that are subject to change and a matter of taste) i really can't see what the fuzz is about. i play on foot only missions over the whole island lately a lot (helping a friend test his mission) and i even carry a launcher and backpack sometimes and i still never have to walk. all that i notice is that i can't sprint all the time. so is that really the problem here? not being able to sprint? or is this another hypothetical general discussion hyping up an issue that isn't really one?

arma 3 is basically the same as arma 2 in regards of fatigue since you will just stop to sprint after a while. all that has been added is that load out finally makes a difference now. so i'm starting to think this is either another "let it all out" moaning thread or it's really about load out and not being able to carry what ever (which you basically still can).

[dmarkwick 261]

just out of interest. what would that exactly be? besides the pp effects and sounds (which are "art assets" that are subject to change and a matter of taste) i really can't see what the fuzz is about. i play on foot only missions over the whole island lately a lot (helping a friend test his mission) and i even carry a launcher and backpack sometimes and i still never have to walk. all that i notice is that i can't sprint all the time. so is that really the problem here? not being able to sprint? or is this another hypothetical general discussion hyping up an issue that isn't really one?

arma 3 is basically the same as arma 2 in regards of fatigue since you will just stop to sprint after a while. all that has been added is that load out finally makes a difference now. so i'm starting to think this is either another "let it all out" moaning thread or it's really about load out and not being able to carry what ever (which you basically still can).

I'm just stating that the fatigue in the vanilla game will be tailored to the game as supplied, and not have a configuration that could break any supplied mission. So we'll see some fatigue obviously (seeing as we already are) but we won't be seeing ACE-level fatigue (and I'm talking here about blackouts & incapacitating models). You're right in that this thread is a little hysterical in its content :) with some people complaining about ANY level of fatigue while others complain that it can never be enough, the final model will be tailored to the supplied gameplay content.

As ever, gameplay that could break the supplied gameplay will be brought in by mods.

[metalcraze 290]

Except the gameplay content should be tailored to game mechanics, not vice versa.

[OrLoK 20]

Hello there

I'd like to see an enhanced fatigue system, I'm not sure a system as punishing as ACE is needed, but More a halfway mark between ACE and A2. Team work being promoted by having assts gunners/ammo bearers etc that are more than just a naming convention.

If one had to buddy up to get a 1337 weapon into play it might help the coopness that seems to be missing a little nowadays.

Regardless of teamplay, I stand firmly in the middle with regards to fatigue. I want more of it, but ACE feels a little much for the "casual" player.

Rgds

LoK

[afp 1]

True. BIS needs to make a harsher fatigue - or better yet - encumbrance penalty.

Actually what I meant is:

A normal soldier is able to dose the effort so he can jogg maybe for hours, with a decent loadout. I think Altis can be jogged in far less then half hour which makes fatigue penalties during this time unrealistic.

Edited May 12, 2013 by afp

[bad benson 1733]

I'm just stating that the fatigue in the vanilla game will be tailored to the game as supplied, and not have a configuration that could break any supplied mission.

yea and i was curious what mission/mod that would be that will be broken by the current fatigue. honestly, i'm just curious since i can't think of any. i'm working on a mod that enables you to climb obstacles and since animations seem to generate fatigue by default i just deactivate fatigue (enablefatigue command) for the duration of the animation and apply my own custom fatigue values afterwards. i think as long as stuff like that is possible there can't be any harm done really.

and i have to agree with metalcraze here. the game should be freely designed with its own rules. i'm also not a fan of the options mania some people are plagued by. the way i see it is that if you make something that penalizes even slightly optional there will be no servers using it.

it's much like for example night time in dayZ. aspects of the game will just be removed because it makes it easier totally ignoring the variation in gameplay it can bring to the game. while i agree that no developer should make a game annoying on purpose, i'm not a believer in too many options or the average opinion in general.

as i said before. all it will do is degrade the game to something with less profile. it's a bit like we should teach our children. don't try to be the most popular just try to be true to yourself. it can be harder but the reward is much richer. while options are necessary in some cases, i think deactivating a feature of the game that is part of the overall picture should not be possible in the game options. it should be down to mods and game modes. and even then i think it's good that the enablefatigue command doesn't allow non stop sprinting. if it was that easy the same would happen that happened to dayZ's night time.

one observation i made is that whether you can sprint or not is not tied to your fatigue value. same goes for heavy breathing. the pp effect seems to go away though when you use "player enablefatigue false". so it has an effect but it's not universal at the moment. put this in your init line to see your fatigue level:

0 = this spawn {while {true} do {hint format ["%1", getfatigue _this]; sleep 1}};

you will see that with 100% fatigue (value of 1) you can still jog.

if you also add:

this enablefatigue false;

you will see what is influenced by the command at the moment.

[bigpickle 0]

ArmA2 had hookers FYI. Which is not relevant to the topic at hand in any way. Let's also complain that we can't pee into the flightsuit while on a mission in DCS A-10C - since that's oh so comparable to game's goals.

You are trying too hard bro. Fatigue is a real life challenge any human deals with on a daily basis. You can whine at laws of physics all you want.

Is arma a game so people can enjoy it? or a real life simulator?

[St. Jimmy 272]

Fatigue doesn't need to be added in the very core. They can add it as difficulty option or as a module but I think it's needed somewhere without mods.

[metalcraze 290]

Is arma a game so people can enjoy it? or a real life simulator?

It's a military simulator which is a game too. Since that's what simulators are. But I guess simulators are just things that people suffer through, can't enjoy them - there's only eternal torture, what are we even doing here?

Why don't you complain about ballistics, recoil, bullets killing you, drowning in the sea without rebreather, having to constantly reload the gun, needing to use NVGs or flashlight at night - it's not real life simulator after all. Get that stupid simulation out of ArmA, what's it doing here?

Edited May 12, 2013 by metalcraze

[bigpickle 0]

It's a military simulator which is a game too. Since that's what simulators are. But I guess simulators are just things that people suffer through, can't enjoy them - there's only eternal torture, what are we even doing here?

Why don't you complain about ballistics, recoil, bullets killing you, drowning in the sea without rebreather, having to constantly reload the gun, needing to use NVGs or flashlight at night - it's not real life simulator after all. Get that stupid simulation out of ArmA, what's it doing here?

Dude I think that it is over kill to have fatigue more than the level of arma 2 that my opinion, my opinion is based upon how i like to play games.

If you think the volumes and effects for fatigue are realistic then your entitled to your opinion just as i am with mine but consider this, go out running with 50lbs on your back and tell me how far you get before your vision starts going blurry, bet its more than 100m.

I believe sometimes subtle is better than having it rammed in your face.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Bigpickle