Suppression Effect missing in ARMA3

[-Snafu- 77]

Ehm, yes. The A2 way.

My problem is that some people will push for it to be as heavy handed as it is in BF3, which I just found to be detrimental to enjoyable gameplay.

We have others here wanting it to make things harder while combating AI, which I think should be an AI issue.

It is like taking a car into a garage with a flat tyre and preceeding to ask the mechanic to fix the brakes.

My point is, is that there are multiple ways, not just two.

[Masharra 10]

Im going to have to agree on suppression by large explosions and large calibre rounds.

[NordKindchen 12]

As far as I can tell by having read the last 20 pages no one is against better visual and sound wise effects for supression.

At the moment its hard to tell if you are beeing shot at and the supersonic crack you hear when bullets whistle by is not very fearsome.

Adding a slight shake and better sounds when beeing shot at would most likely increase the immersion and would at the same time leave all the skills needed to react to the threat.

But it would better bring over the fact that you are beeing shot at. And this will lead to a better and more realistic reaction of the player. While of course he will nevertheless have the ability to just lay down and shoot back.

In conclusion: I think the games feedback when beeing shot at is just not remarkable enough. If the game tells you in a better way that you are beeing shot at then people will react as beeing supressed more often.

And still gamers that dont want to get supressed can just ignore it. Obviously with the danger of beeing shot.

Greetz

Ps:

If you jump to 2:15 you will see how Supreesion works in PR.

Now if the suppression effects dont decrease your aim then you could fire back. The thing is: this kind of effects at least TELL YOU that you are beeing shot at. And one has to point out that the firing gun was a high caliber. Small caliber probaply wont cause that much suppression.

Edited August 7, 2013 by NordKindchen

[NeMeSiS 11]

I actually hate the PR implementation. I dont mind a small screen-edge indication, but i would prefer that most of the suppression effect comes from highly increased sway.

The PR way just hurts my eyes, and visual effects wont really stop me from easily killing anyone who is shooting at me if there is no true aiming penalty. And without an aiming penalty, there really is no need to suppress: Better to take a few aimed accurate shots and actually hit something.

[NordKindchen 12]

MY point is that if the game actually tells me that I bullets just nearly missed me - I do want to get behind cover.

The current system doesnt really tell me that.

So basically adding those effects would help adding the suppression effect in its most natural way: You dont want to get hit - so you get in cover. That is what supression is. ANd that is what the current system fails to achieve due to visual and auditiv feedback.

--------------------

On the other hand: I would like to have some kind of system integrated that simulatates supression Red Orechstra style.

In Red Orchestra your weapon accuracity was not changed (not like in BF3 were random bullet spread gest added with suppression) but with each bullet that flew past your head your aim would shake away a little. If you think about it this sounds quite realistic. Just like you would shrug if sth flew very fast very close to you. Its a reaction of the body that is natural.

But to find a way that pleases all I would be confident if only the visual part would be added.

[NeMeSiS 11]

MY point is that if the game actually tells me that I bullets just nearly missed me - I do want to get behind cover.

The current system doesnt really tell me that.

So basically adding those effects would help adding the suppression effect in its most natural way: You dont want to get hit - so you get in cover. That is what supression is. ANd that is what the current system fails to achieve due to visual and auditiv feedback.

Since both players and AI only need a couple of bullets to kill on <300m ranges anyway, just a visual notification wouldnt matter much in practice IMO. And in cases when i know i am being shot at i shoot just as well as when not*, so suppression would be useless in any case.

*Due to the rather sparse object placement on ArmA islands shooting whoever is trying to kill you may be a lot more effective than running to the nearest cover, depending on your situation.

The RO style suppression sounds better than the fatiguelike suppression we used to have in ArmA2.

[Smurf 12]

PR doesn't change your aim, you see less and less but if had the enemy on your crosshairs before beign supressed, you can still put him down easily or at least return fire to that general area and hope he gets a little supressed aswell so you (or your squad) can manouver. Adquiring other targets on the other hand become dificult and that is the main porpouse of supressing a targer.

But the very first thing that goes by your head when the screen goes black is "Oh shit!", it doesn't last long if you are not supressed.

In RO2 it shakes a little your aim, it works very well most times but others you miss a shot because of that "jump" when you have the target on your aim. Kind of frustranting when engaging a SMG face to face as a rifleman.

I like PR one more because it really scares you on the first shot and doesn't take control from you on exceptional cases.

Anyway, supressing is linked to sway (could be a lot more while standing), resting\bipods (when, if; sway must be tweaked again) and breathing. Sway and breathing should be linked to the fatigue which is linked to the inventory system.

[dayglow 2]

Also with the PR you can 'focus' your way through the effect and get a shot. It takes more effort and consintratenat, which causes you to loose focus on other things around you, but that would ge a dissed effect. A Rambo could fight his way through it, it just takes more effort on their part. I think it's well balanced.

[Anachoretes 10]

Video's from FUNKER530 shows realistic supression. We need this "effects" to increase behavior. Not because of realizm. Reality not telling you nothing more and "body" react in different ways. But if you need it let's do it close to complicated "reality", not a semi-hardcore games.

We need a well thought-out idea to make interesting ticket.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Anachoretes

[Smurf 12]

Oh yeah, other nice thing about the RO2 system is the lack of zoom when you are fully supressed, makes it hard to get hits, but you still can shoot in a general direction.

[scrim 1]

As far as I can tell by having read the last 20 pages no one is against better visual and sound wise effects for supression.

...

Now if the suppression effects dont decrease your aim then you could fire back. The thing is: this kind of effects at least TELL YOU that you are beeing shot at. And one has to point out that the firing gun was a high caliber. Small caliber probaply wont cause that much suppression.

Oh really? Have you actually read any of the last 20 pages then?

And regarding small caliber vs. large caliber:

"Shit, keep your heads down, we're being fired at by a .50 cal!"

"No, it's just an AK, don't take cover, it fires smaller rounds, because it's totally the size of the round that dictates wether or not we're pinned down, not the inherent danger of exposing ourselves when we're getting shot at!"

"Good point, a 7.62 is smaller than a 12.7, so we're less likely to get hit by the AK, and thus we're not yet suppressed."

Quote from anyone who's ever been to war.

[NordKindchen 12]

Posts like yours are the reason why so many people call this thread a flame war.

I will line up with the others and wont respond to offending posts like this.

This thread needs a more friendly tone.

[sqb-sma 66]

It would be neat if it only triggered when the suppression was "noticeable". I.e. Subsonic rounds in stable flight -> nearly undectable -> you don't get suppressed. High caliber supersonic rounds? Lots of noise, lots of "oh shit", lots of suppression! But if a team mate dies right next to you from the subsonic rounds... well then suddenly you get a boost of fear.

It would also be cool if suppression was not 100% a bad thing. The fear of being shot at could make your stamina go up, allowing you to keep sprinting when otherwise you would've been forced to jog, or even make you sprint entirely faster! Anything but being able to return fire.

[Anachoretes 10]

I'm talk about it few pages ago. But this is impossible. As i say, we can look on general "sanity" or "brain stamina" idea.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Anachoretes

[-Coulum- 35]

Better sound effects are definitley needed. Not for suppression but for situational awareness. I really don't hear the current bullet sounds. They should be louder than all the other sounds and there should be more variety.

Suppression as a result of nearby rounds passing/impacting close could best be realised by implementing a temporary aiming penalty that is accumulative IMO. For example, one single bullet passing/impacting close by would introduce a small aiming inaccuracy, but several rounds in a short time would introduce a larger inaccuracy, simply by adding to the current inaccuracy (rather than extending it).

I'm not talking about large gameplay-breaking amounts of inaccuracy here, just a small one that discourages players from thinking they can be sharpshooters at that particular time. Suppressed players need to be able to break out of their condition using effective return fire (note effective does not necessarily mean accurate )

I agree with this. basically every shot will cause a twitch, a bit of extra sway and a lack of hold breath. If a nother shot occurs before the effects of the last have worn off (3-4 seconds) the intensity of the twitch and sway will be increased but it will still only last another 3-4 seconds. This means that constant fire will have to be layed down to suppress someone and large volumes of fire will be able to effectively cover your teamates bounds.

I agree that the size of the round should increase the intesity of the twitch and sway as well. In addition, as the proximity of the round to the target decreases the intesity of the effects should increase. This is because, ideally, closer calls will cause more noise, thus more shock/fear/confusion whaterver you want to call it. Of course in arma its seems that ll sonic cracks are the same volume no matter but thats a problem with the sound engine.

Explosions should cause suppression and this suppression should last a fair bit longer than bullets. Although arty and the likes are often used to kill the enemy when the infatry can't reach it do to cover, it is also great for covering an advance (from what I've read) the reason being, when explosions are going off around you the last thing you are going to think about is shooting at the enemy, because they are not even the direct cause of your danger. I can imagine the only thing on your mind is to find safety from the explosions because that is really the only thing you can do to increase your chances of survival.

I am not really that big a fan of blur or other fancy effect (ie. PR double vision, RO greyscale) but I don't mind them and do make it harder to spot while under fire which is good. But blur should last only a second or 2 as more than that and it breaks the immersion if you ask me.

This "radius" will work anytime. But fact is, that "supression" is not working if you not see or not here bullets.

Any suggestions?

Yes your correct. But basically the "radius" should be small enough so that all bullets within it will either be visible to the player or audible to the player. I would say a 3 metre radius would be pretty fair though I am sure one can here zinging bullets from further than that. Like i mentioned above it would be ideal if the closer the shot, the more intense the effects. That way a loud sonic clap will cause a significant twitch and sway whereas a bullet zinging by 5 metres away will be just a minor inconvenience.

And the intensity of pistols and silenced weapons should almost be negligible to represent the the fact that sometimes you won't even know they are being fired at you.

[scrim 1]

Posts like yours are the reason why so many people call this thread a flame war.

I will line up with the others and wont respond to offending posts like this.

This thread needs a more friendly tone.

Posting obvious lies ("As far as I can tell by having read the last 20 pages no one is against better visual and sound wise effects for supression.") and asking for quite frankly stupid things tend to provoce reactions. Welcome to life.

[batto 17]

Explosions should cause suppression

Explosion should also destroy your ears, which should disable suppression effect, because without hearing incoming bullets what would be the point, right?

Inb4 unpleasant facts is trolling

[Masharra 10]

Explosion should also destroy your ears, which should disable suppression effect, because without hearing incoming bullets what would be the point, right?

Inb4 unpleasant facts is trolling

Inb4 Modern armies equip soldiers with ear plugs. In b4 not only bullets can suppress. In b4 the only effects bullet make are noises. Inb4 deaf people run into traffic because they cant hear it.

Also if an explosion is close enough to destroy your eardrums (i.e from arty) chances are that the unit has successfully suppressed you and the next round is splash, over. splash, out.

[ShotgunSheamuS 1]

I rate this is definately needed. Why not just include a testing sample in BETA and let people try it before knocking it down... Right now people are just bitching about BF3 mostly, yet there have been some insanely good alternate suggestions. Only real way to finalize it is to actually try it, and see... Maybe half the rambo guys bitching about it may not really even be making a big deal of it, though there will always be that one guy...

[Anachoretes 10]

Explosion should also destroy your ears, which should disable suppression effect, because without hearing incoming bullets what would be the point, right?

Yes, and idea of general parameter(hereinafter "sanity\oppression") can hadle this. For example, we can say that suppression from bullets decrease "sanity" only from 1 till 0.7, and explosion from 240mmÐœ26Ð1(MLRS) decrease it till 0.7 in 50 meters, 0.5 in 30 meters, 0.2 in 15 meters. Also, regeneration from 0.2 tiil 0.5 can be slow, 0.5-0.7 is nomal, and 0.7-1 is fastest.

So, this technic needs "skeleton script" from stamina, triggers for players, and bunch of the effects.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Anachoretes

[lordprimate 159]

While you are all arguing about the validity of in game suppression effects, I am enjoying @TPWCAS in Aram 3.. I can care less if it becomes part of the game by default, because i have the script i need!!! Thanks Ollem, Fab,TPW, etc!!!

[ShotgunSheamuS 1]

While you are all arguing about the validity of in game suppression effects, I am enjoying @TPWCAS in Aram 3.. I can care less if it becomes part of the game by default, because i have the script i need!!! Thanks Ollem, Fab,TPW, etc!!!

Scripted mods are just as good, but generally better when these things are natively supported in vanilla game, as a standard... It is annoying to play different servers with different mods which leads to having to adapt to various things that can be confusing at times. If things like this become a standard, then gameplay would remain default, and mods would expand more on content than fixing the game. At least, thats how wish it to be.

[Sheepdog 4]

I dont think suppression is needed just my opinion, in a no respawn environment generally the crack of rifles is enough to keep someone's head down as it does in real life.

[ShotgunSheamuS 1]

I dont think suppression is needed just my opinion, in a no respawn environment generally the crack of rifles is enough to keep someone's head down as it does in real life.

Exactly, in a no respawn environment. Unfortunately, not every game has no respawn, especially the PvP and TvT games. Personally the way I see it, the pro's outweigh the cons, and if you are ducking and diving when under fire anyway, the the effect wouldnt hinder you much, only when you try rambo it and play risky to sharp shoot the suppressors (The so called skill kill in the form of quick scoping which has CoD written all over it), then it will hinder you, which is the point isnt it???. So I really can only see those kind of guys complaining about it, the rest who duck and dive for cover like you suggest you do, and I do too, they would be too busy looking for cover and getting their bearings together for a counter attack to really notice the negative impact.

So like I say, best is to impliment it the right way, and test it, and fine tune it till perfection. The effect shouldnt be intensely over the top with full screen blur, just really minimal impact, but enough to disrupt any "quick scope" kills, like discussed in the thread, plenty of good ideas honestly.

[[evo] dan 79]

AI still need to be supressable too don't forget.