North Korea General

[vilas 477]

NK is probably only Stalinist country in the world since 50s, but people there are so brainwashed that any military action will not help and solve issue, they are brainwashed by propaganda for few generations, now explaining them that world is not like NK TV says is hard, NK is unsolvable problem, people are suffering tyrany but free them is only possible via war, but in this war they will fight against those who would like to help them and fight to protect their dictator abusing them (cause they were shaped by generations like this)- unsolvable issue ,

NK probably will be left alone for another decades and people will be starving there for another decades, generations, why ?

- you cannot bring freedom to someone who doesn't understand what is freedom,

- you cannot help man who believes that he doesn't need any help,

- you cannot help man by shooting to him (cause he will start to shoot at you) cause he protect his oppressor (like in sects, David Koresh sect as example, people were abused there but people shoot to FBI who wanted to help them) ,

i recently seen movie about NK oppression system, in this movie there was interview with escaped ex-DPRK soldier, who was saying about tortures and such like atrocities he seen, he said that when his father criticized government, all family was sent to camp but he succeed to run away to South , he was saying that people in NK believe that those who are against Kim-family are not human, but animals, it reminds sect or religious freaks,

when Police tries from time to time hunt for some sects around globe, there is always similar scheme, people within sect protect leader of sect and shoot to Police, although they were prisoned (Stockholm syndrome :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome )

probably 99% of NK citizens have this, those 1% who do not have it are in camps, prisons or killed,

NK will be threating war by few decades untill their 1950s equipment will not turn to dust from the rust, they have T34 , T55, T62 tanks, how long they can repair them before they will rust ?

when USA will have laser guns as regular equipment, DPRK Army will be showing their starving from hunger citizens "newest" T55 saying that "they are superpower which America afraid of" , poor people, really poor people, but world cannot help them cause they will refuse any help (due to brainwashing from childhood for few generations)

people in NK might be on the level as Ancient Egyptians were building pyramids "Pharaoh is god and he decide if sun will shine or not" so any opposition in Ancient Egypt would not exist cause everyone wanted sun to shine after night and believed it was thanks to Pharaoh

Edited March 20, 2014 by vilas

[scrim 1]

Disagree. Most North Koreans would probably welcome an invasion by pretty much anyone at this stage, because let's face it, that country's citizens are worse off than even the unluckiest Europeans of the Dark ages. Due to the current state of the country, they can hardly escape. Not only is it very hard and dangerous to do so, your family will certainly be sent to concentration camps when it's discovered that you've fled, or attempted to. During the recent "election", I even read that some North Koreans who've escaped to China make their way back across the border so they can vote, as the poll attendance records are used to make sure that no one has fled.

[vilas 477]

have you ever faced police intervetion to violence in family ? cause i do, several time, let me tell you how it looks,

drunken husband beating wife, she screams, neigbors call for police, patrol come to flat, knock at the door, and woman shouts at policemen "leave my sweet honey alone, leave him you mff**" when husband is handcuffed by officers,

thats how it looks, it is Stockholm Syndrome of people beaten for decades, ask any policemen how it works, read about David Koresh sect, i believe that 3 generations of brainwashing in NK is enough to brainwash people there to stage at which people in sects are, compare them with suicide bombers ready to blow themself for "Allah", US has very good psychological studies on it , probably NK people suffer the same and we cannot save them, they would shoot to us if we would try to help them, tell guys in Arab states that you come to bring him democracy and lack of abuse others due to different religion or sexual orientation ;)

people in NK probably cannot be helped, we can only watch their suffering , but if world would try to attack regime of Kim, 99% of NK people will defend Kim (apart from fact that noone like to be invaded and when foreign troop enter land even opposition fights against foreign troops and people unite against foreign personell)

i used police metaphore of beaten wives, i know such studies, i know that majority of these women see not beating men as "soft, fagots" and they want "macho" (only minority leaves oppressor, some if meet not drinking not violent men, leave them after while to be back again with beating and violent man) , the same with people in some countries, when you give them democracy, they spit at it, cause they only feel comfortable when "order is with strong hand", people who raised in communism cannot live in democracy cause now they must do all themselves, while in past state was telling what to do and they had all organized and prescribed by state i know it from my parents, pre 1989 all was organized and now they feel helpless cause state not tells what to do, me too, i ve grown in such system and from time to time i feel anger that "this is not ogranized" or "noone tells me what to do and i must look for job myself instead being sent to job after school" (although i had 12 when it fallen) you think why people in some post commies states vote for authoritarian politicians ? because without authoritarian they feel no power and no respect,

if you think they would welcome our troops in NK you mistaken, there would be no "ooo freedom, finally", there would be "aaaa evil power come to took away our peacefull wealthy living with lovely Kim"

in communism people were told that they live in good condition and west is only unemployed criminal danger world where people starve homeless and street gangs and poverty, when commies were showing New York , they were showing homeless people in subway or park, not people who work and have good car and their apartment,

let me give you another example:

people worked in communism in following way, you study something, than after university you get order to work in facility/manufacturer/industry of this what you studied, zero worries, now put those people in free market and competition , when they must care themselves , they feel helpless and angry, just like me after school when i had no job, i know how to learn and learn more what i was given but finding something yourself was biggest problem,

probably NK TV if ever show USA , they show only one homeless guy sleeping on street somewhere, NK people are poor people starving enormous atrocities from their leaders, but i doubt they would help UN when /if UN would invade, they would run in suicidal run with RPG2 and T55 on Abrams :/

the best option would be option of special direct hit at NK gov without harming people around, also how without big media support you would like to tell them that you come to help them ? NK control media, you cannot give them TV broadcast, cause it will be suddenly jammed, moreover, they might have TV or Radio set only on one station by manufacturer , in Socialism we had TV which had only 4 channels, of course official channels, you couldn't have 1000 channels , you had 4 buttons in TV-receiver and it was from air frequency, so there was need of local antenna not far away antenna

Edited March 20, 2014 by vilas

[instagoat 133]

They are not stalinist, their particular brand of only visually alike but something quite of their own. Their Ideologies are Juche (Basically independence and purity of cause in their country and for their citizens only.) and Songun (Military first).

Their Ideology is much more akin to National Socialism, both in their self identity of being the "purest" of races (a meaningless term for humans, evolutionarily speaking.) and in their national Identity, as well as their State and Leader centered government and society.

Confusing North Korea with being a communist dictatorship is incorrect: they are using socialist and communist images for reasons of heritage and history, but fundamentally they are a super-religious, nationalist state where the (dead) leadership is taking the place of the deity, and the living Dictator becomes the earthly manager of the deities realm (previously Kim Jong Il, now Kim Jong Un.).

[vilas 477]

ah, so they are form of religious-nazis ? sorry, but i only use European comparision of systems, i do not know African or Asian systems

can they be compared to nazis deifying leader as god ?

[katipo66 94]

Oh boy, Ukraine thread is on time out so look out NK, here come the political officers beating their mantras :)

Are we not all brainwashed? Or brain dead from too much bullshit "Xxxxx's got talent" Ideology and other forms of sleeping pills that help isolate us from each other.

[tortuosit 486]

We cannot solve all problems. We cannot even decide what a problem is. We cannot skip 1000 years of social and technological development, it just does not work. We have a lot of experience with this. I'm not saying which continent I mean, don't wanna wake up the daydreamers.

Everyone should take care of his own business, as a rule of thumb. And stop dreaming.

[vilas 477]

Are we not all brainwashed?

we have free internet, we have different media and not only one source of media, if we want we can emigrate to other country, if we do not want to go for state-parade, we do not go, we are not brainwashed cause we can choose knowledge sources from different states/religions/systems/sources , NK people cannot, probably they even have no access to world internet , otherwise they would upload pictures... oops, they even have no cameras to take photos of death camps there

[scrim 1]

We cannot solve all problems. We cannot even decide what a problem is. We cannot skip 1000 years of social and technological development, it just does not work. We have a lot of experience with this. I'm not saying which continent I mean, don't wanna wake up the daydreamers.

Everyone should take care of his own business, as a rule of thumb. And stop dreaming.

Except that makes no sense what so ever, nor is it even a little morally just. For starters, Korea has been around as a civilized society for just as long as any country in the Western world, if not longer. They weren't planted here on Earth just before the Korean war.

Considering that, and the fact that they have probably killed more people in their concentration camps than the Nazis did, they really are not something that is someone else's business. They're humans, and if we are, we can't ignore it.

[spooky lynx 73]

we have free internet, we have different media and not only one source of media, if we want we can emigrate to other country, if we do not want to go for state-parade, we do not go, we are not brainwashed cause we can choose knowledge sources from different states/religions/systems/sources , NK people cannot, probably they even have no access to world internet , otherwise they would upload pictures... oops, they even have no cameras to take photos of death camps there

Despite this we choose the sources that fill our beliefs and agendas and call alternative ones Kremlin/Chinese/Korean/US/EU propaganda. We are told that NK is full of death camps but noone had ever brought descent photo/video proofs of it though with current gadgets and satellites that's not a problem. All that I've seen in reports is just another poor third world country. Yes it has some hard regime but still I've seen no reliable proofs of endless tortures, killings and starvation there. Only words of some so called defectors with hard-to-prove record. At the same time I'vs seen tons of photo and video proofs of really horrible and massive murderings and tortures in Africa in recent years.

BTW recent news of some NK official been executed by mortar shot make me fear of NK artillery crews if they are really able to put the projectile just near the alone-standing human without all that modern fancy computers and guided munitions.

[vilas 477]

satelites do not look behind roof, thats why we do not have photos of tortures cause they torture people in buildings and satellite can only take photo of roof and wall,

NK has strict control of PC, strict control and only some mobiles for high-ranked party members , usual people cannot connect and call/phone each other cause they do not have phones , NK has such supervision of citizens that sending agents like during cold war in europe, is impossible in NK , in cold war US or USSR could send agents to each other, cause noone controlled citizens so much and they could get lots in street and there was opposition cause people were not that brainwashed even in USSR as in NK when they praise "the most handsome man on the earth , our shining sun Kim Jong Un"

, in NK they even not use our calendar and year, they count years from 1912 when Kim Ir Sen was born , while we all count years since Jesus was told to be born (in fact after scientific researches Jesus,if existed, was born few years earlier) , hard to find intel support in society which believe in politician like in god or god-son

They're humans, and if we are, we can't ignore it.

beautiful idealism which i support, but politicians, corporations bosses react only when there is profit or loose of profit, you would fight for human cause, they would send troops only because of profit/territory/resources counting costs, attack to NK would make a lot of financial costs and bring another costs (put those people to normal standard of living) but no profits , so politicians do not attack NK just like they do not act in Rwanda in 1996 when 2 tribes, hootoo, tootsie had war and one tribe killed over milion men of other tribe, another reason for wars in history (apart from profits/power of small group of people) was religion, nowadays UE/US is not religious so this will not also connect anyone there to make was for freedom of NK people ,

we can only feel sorry about NK people, noone will help them, till the last T55 will turn into dust from the rust, if they are brainwashed nazi-religious people deifying Kim family as god-like, than you cannot help them

Edited March 21, 2014 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

I'm not talking about NK citizens. Still there are numerous tourist groups visiting NK and despite really sophisticated supervision upon foreigners they manage to take tons of photos even where it is forbidden. But all they could depict is rather poor country with strange traditions and ideology. But there are plenty of them at the Earth. Frankly speaking all that ze evil Kim regime hysteria strongly reminds me the attitude to Jewish communities in Europe (including Russia) some centuries ago. Plenty of gossips and horror-tales about strangers like drinking blood of babies and other stuff.

[vilas 477]

tourists ? don't joke, turists are guided by 2 guards ALWAYS and noone take tourists to camps, c'mon

in Stalinism in Poland people were tortured on police stations and in prisons, do you imagine tourist coming to ANY country "hi, i am tourist, i would like to visit your police station and take some photos in cellar" , buahahahaha,

noone in ANY country will allow tourist to enter:

- governmental building,

- army base,

- police station,

- prison,

- reseach laboratory with newest high-tech like NASA complex,

- super-hygiene places like medical production plant, water cleaning plant, surgery room,

such places in ALL countries are guided and you cannot enter them , you cannot just enter and visit military base, police station, ministry or hospital or laboratory facility

noone will see tortures when he sightsee streets, national park, mountains,

people are not tortured on main street or in mountains by the lake but in cellars of prisons, police stations,

[spooky lynx 73]

From what I read there are not guards but guides (for sure affiliated with government). But still people are able to walk outside official tour routes and take some shots. And noone shot anything even slightly similar to death camp or got evidence of what could even slightly look like tortures. Then with current civil satellite cameras you mayget very good shots. And the objects that are supposed to be death camps may be easily found. Still there's no such shots despite they could be much more effective in case of anti-NK propaganda than all that defectors stories.

[vilas 477]

if you would go for touriste route to my country (which is not forbiding people to move free) and you would visit mountains, you would see moutains, forests, mountains, some foxes, some flowers, houses, but you would not see ships, cause ships are by the sea, not in mountains, you would not see big car or bus or trucks factory because they are in other city 300 km away - simple comparision , but in my country you can travel from one city to another and instead of moutains you can see wall of bus factory where buses are produced, or move 600 km to see ships on sea, i spent 2 weeks in Austria and noone was guiding me to keep only selected route, i have seen beauty of Alps, clean Austrian towns, clean streets, i never seen single military truck, does it mean that Austria has no military trucks, no , Austria has 1500 military trucks , they produce Steyr trucks , or simply in touristic towns there are no location of Austrian army ?

if people visit one city , monuments in this city, nearby moutains - they not visit other country parts 500 km away , all touristic routes show landscape, not industrial parts or prisons, even in my country many prisons are located outside big cities but in small towns for example 150 km from big city,

tourists in NK are guided by prescribed routes, monuments, theatre, hotel, moutains, no more,

if NK is not as bad, than why they forbid UN inspectors to see what UN inspectors want to see ?

[Tonci87 163]

From what I read there are not guards but guides (for sure affiliated with government). But still people are able to walk outside official tour routes and take some shots. And noone shot anything even slightly similar to death camp or got evidence of what could even slightly look like tortures. Then with current civil satellite cameras you mayget very good shots. And the objects that are supposed to be death camps may be easily found. Still there's no such shots despite they could be much more effective in case of anti-NK propaganda than all that defectors stories.

Not they are not. Tourists get driven around in a bus, from one protected location to another. The guides make sure that they talk to nobody and the guards make sure that they can´t leave the protected tourist zones.

[spooky lynx 73]

Not only by bus, some manage to go by foot:)

http://tema.ru/travel/north-korea-1/

http://tema.ru/travel/north-korea-2/

http://tema.ru/travel/north-korea-3/

http://tema.ru/travel/north-korea-4/

[ballistic09 241]

Then with current civil satellite cameras you mayget very good shots. And the objects that are supposed to be death camps may be easily found. Still there's no such shots

Just because something doesn't fit with your world view, and you choose not to research it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Don't be ignorant. :rolleyes:

[katipo66 94]

we have free internet, we have different media and not only one source of media, if we want we can emigrate to other country, if we do not want to go for state-parade, we do not go, we are not brainwashed cause we can choose knowledge sources from different states/religions/systems/sources , NK people cannot, probably they even have no access to world internet , otherwise they would upload pictures... oops, they even have no cameras to take photos of death camps there

I'm no expert on North Korea although my wife has warned me of the danger of some Japanese beaches at night and the possibility of being abducted by NK commandos :D And I'm not denying any human tragedy that maybe happening there but im not gong to pretend I am an expert either by regurgitating the same stories and rumors from around the Internet and call it the truth or state it as fact when there is actually no real "hard evidence" of anything, it's the WMD syndrome and large media outlets whom I had previously trusted blindly were very complicit in selling that lie... That makes me ponder other lies they maybe selling or more importantly other human tragedies they are completely silent on... And there's a few very well documented examples that are just conveniently swept under the carpet.

[scrim 1]

Despite this we choose the sources that fill our beliefs and agendas and call alternative ones Kremlin/Chinese/Korean/US/EU propaganda. We are told that NK is full of death camps but noone had ever brought descent photo/video proofs of it though with current gadgets and satellites that's not a problem.

Yes, there are plenty of photographic evidence of the North Korean concentration camps.

All that I've seen in reports is just another poor third world country. Yes it has some hard regime but still I've seen no reliable proofs of endless tortures, killings and starvation there. Only words of some so called defectors with hard-to-prove record. At the same time I'vs seen tons of photo and video proofs of really horrible and massive murderings and tortures in Africa in recent years.

Again, apart from the defectors, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Just because you don't bother/want to see it doesn't mean it goes away.

BTW recent news of some NK official been executed by mortar shot make me fear of NK artillery crews if they are really able to put the projectile just near the alone-standing human without all that modern fancy computers and guided munitions.

Beg my pardon, but do you know much about mortars? For starters, it's not impressive, because the Best Koreans do it by firing one shell, and then setting up the pole that they tie to prisoner to where the shell impacted. A freshly minted child soldier could pull that off. Second, that is not impressive even on a first shot. Read "With the Old Breed". The Marines were doing it in the Pacific during the war, with equipment that was older, more worn out, and during combat, and they weren't alone in doing it. Even today such shots are expected from even half proficient soldiers even when just using a light setup, i.e. smaller baseplate, and no bipod.

[tortuosit 486]

They're humans, and if we are, we can't ignore it.

If we were god, we can't ignore it. If you look closer you will realize, there are numerous humans whose fate you shouldn't ignore. You will have no more time for anything except for not ignoring other peoples fate.

Ok that was evil and I see your point. But I am not supporting naive idealism any more. From experience I know quite a few people helping people in central African people to help themselves. After all and after years it turned out to be useless, because simply... Lets just forget it. It does not work. I repeat. You cannot skip centuries of human cultural and social development.

Therefore I think best is, everybody fights for himself and does what he can for himself and his close surroundings. Yes I am aware that businesses are global and its not as easy. But I see it as a correct general principle.

Edited March 22, 2014 by tortuosit

[scrim 1]

If you consider it to be "naive idealism" to think we should all be concerned about the fact that the North Korean concentration camps with all likelihood have killed more than the German concentration camps during the Holocaust, then your conscience must be disgustingly decayed.

God knows I'm one heck of a pessimist, but you take the prize any day if that's your attitude.

[vilas 477]

[scottmillerukctrg 12]

North Korea is pure democracy when compared to the Western world.

[ProfTournesol 956]

North Korea is pure democracy when compared to the Western world.

So it's time for you to move there, i believe.