Balancing?

[Darkpriest667 10]

Anyone crying about balancing can go to the latest hash of COD or Battlefield. We don't want/need it here. From what I have seen so far the run and gun FPS crowd hates even Arma 3. Good for them, they'll play the game for 20 minutes. Realize it might take half an hour to even encounter an enemy and move on. That just leaves the hackers and cheaters to worry about.

[Dark6-6 10]

Anyone crying about balancing can go to the latest hash of COD or Battlefield. We don't want/need it here. From what I have seen so far the run and gun FPS crowd hates even Arma 3. Good for them, they'll play the game for 20 minutes. Realize it might take half an hour to even encounter an enemy and move on. That just leaves the hackers and cheaters to worry about.

Snipers need nerfed, no fair to die in one shot.

XD

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

[Darkpriest667 10]

Snipers need nerfed, no fair to die in one shot.

XD

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

Go play call of duty or battlefield then sweetheart. On the real "battlefield" snipers kill you in one shot. Which is exactly why they are usually chosen to be snipers. Don't cry here I ain't yer momma.

[Dark6-6 10]

Go play call of duty or battlefield then sweetheart. On the real "battlefield" snipers kill you in one shot. Which is exactly why they are usually chosen to be snipers. Don't cry here I ain't yer momma.

EBR is OP, should be 6.5 like all other rifles.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

[purepassion 22]

Go play call of duty or battlefield then sweetheart. On the real "battlefield" snipers kill you in one shot. Which is exactly why they are usually chosen to be snipers. Don't cry here I ain't yer momma.

Please keep the discussion civil and refrain from any personal attacks. Thank you! :)

[Dark6-6 10]

Please keep the discussion civil and refrain from any personal attacks. Thank you! :)

Passion no offense taken I was just a parody of comments posted elsewhere and baited him a bit haha its all good.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

[purepassion 22]

Alright, just making sure it's going in the right direction. :)

And shh, you don't want to be that guy; it's pure

[Mirudes 1]

[snip] you will always get back to 75% health. this means you can infiltrate a base alone and get shot a 100 times as long as you kill 100 enemies and take their FAKs. there is no way of sugar coating this. it may sound minor to some people but just apply it to more actual gameplay situations and you'll see the impact.[snap]

I agree. But how was the role of the medic any better? He could heal 100 times, even the same player, without supplies, always up to 100% health. Some player have even choosen the medic-role only for the capability to heal himself, but have never healed another player!

But yes, bring back the medical BI :)

As this thread is about balancing, lets talk about HOW TO BRING BACK THE MEDIC first.

When you have ever played as a medic, you will have generally noticed that this role is less attractive.

Why? In ArmA2 the player have less slots for weaponry, can't take any AT-weapons, can't take any "good" rifles.

Besides that, in some popular missions like Domination every player can revive other players.

And to build a mash isn't even a native ArmA-feature, it is a user-made script.

The medic is always forced to help injured players. The medics have less freedom but is forced to interact with other people's mistakes. Most injured player know what to do: They fall back to a safer place and call for help. But disproportionately often you have to heal always the same player, again and again. It is like a Rambo-player, boosting his killratio, unable to work in a team. When I play as medic, I was always killed because I have to run to the neewbs --who are generally at the worst places-- and I get killed just only because of their incompetence.

I would like to see some constructive proposals on this topic:

How would you balance the medic slot for a public mission?

[progamer 14]

I agree. But how was the role of the medic any better? He could heal 100 times, even the same player, without supplies, always up to 100% health. Some player have even choosen the medic-role only for the capability to heal himself, but have never healed another player!

As this thread is about balancing, lets talk about HOW TO BRING BACK THE MEDIC first.

When you have ever played as a medic, you will have generally noticed that this role is less attractive.

Why? In ArmA2 the player have less slots for weaponry, can't take any AT-weapons, can't take any "good" rifles.

Besides that, in some popular missions like Domination every player can revive other players.

And to build a mash isn't even a native ArmA-feature, it is a user-made script.

The medic is always forced to help injured players. The medics have less freedom but is forced to interact with other people's mistakes. Most injured player know what to do: They fall back to a safer place and call for help. But disproportionately often you have to heal always the same player, again and again. It is like a Rambo-player, boosting his killratio, unable to work in a team. When I play as medic, I was always killed because I have to run to the neewbs --who are generally at the worst places-- and I get killed just only because of their incompetence.

I would like to see some constructive proposals on this topic:

How would you balance the medic slot for a public mission?

It's more on AI balancing. :)

[bad benson 1733]

I agree. But how was the role of the medic any better? He could heal 100 times, even the same player, without supplies, always up to 100% health. Some player have even choosen the medic-role only for the capability to heal himself, but have never healed another player!

As this thread is about balancing, lets talk about HOW TO BRING BACK THE MEDIC first.

When you have ever played as a medic, you will have generally noticed that this role is less attractive.

Why? In ArmA2 the player have less slots for weaponry, can't take any AT-weapons, can't take any "good" rifles.

Besides that, in some popular missions like Domination every player can revive other players.

And to build a mash isn't even a native ArmA-feature, it is a user-made script.

The medic is always forced to help injured players. The medics have less freedom but is forced to interact with other people's mistakes. Most injured player know what to do: They fall back to a safer place and call for help. But disproportionately often you have to heal always the same player, again and again. It is like a Rambo-player, boosting his killratio, unable to work in a team. When I play as medic, I was always killed because I have to run to the neewbs --who are generally at the worst places-- and I get killed just only because of their incompetence.

I would like to see some constructive proposals on this topic:

How would you balance the medic slot for a public mission?

your post reminds me of the planetside 2 forums where people cry about how their favourite class has not enough advantages. of course a medic can't carry much stuff because he already carries an object that makes him invaluable (in a world without magic medikits). this exact topic here was opened for exactly that reason. most people like arma because it isn't balanced for solo rambo play on public servers like certain other games (i won't go there). if you are frustrated by random "newbs" getting injured all the time just don't heal them, play with proper people (friends) or maybe play a role that doesn't frustrate you.

don't get me wrong. i'm all for making roles more useful but you are looking at it from exactly the wrong point of view. if "rambo newbs" getting killed/injured on public servers is the problem then i guess magic medikits for everyone are the solution. i just think that most people here and especially the OP see it exactly the other way around.

if you ask me, someone who gets shot has to be struggling with it from that point on. a medic should only be able to heal you to like 30-40% (numbers can be tweaked) health and reduce some effects of the injury. and as i said. FAKs should be for the stopping of bleeding only and you should actually bleed out if you don't bandage. actually the dayZ mod has a very nice medical system. replace meat/bloodpacks with medics and lower the healing effect to 30-40% restored max or something. in dayZ it's better to be able to totally heal yourself but in arma where people repsawn a lot more and the impact of death is smaller it would be great, if getting shot would actually have a lasting effect.

[Anachoretes 10]

Snipers need nerfed, no fair to die in one shot.

In ARMA, at the one in which everyone wants to play, you almost die from one bullet, or one mistake. Just wait for a more severe ballistics.

[Dark6-6 10]

In ARMA, at the one in which everyone wants to play, you almost die from one bullet, or one mistake. Just wait for a more severe ballistics.

I'm not seriously suggesting that these weapons are overpowered, just parodying the statements made elsewhere. It seems everyone who complains about things being too difficult or unfair to one side is hoping to make it so all the weapons are identical with different skins, which is a shame. Also, why is the NLAW reloadable?

Edited June 25, 2013 by Dark6-6

[sqb-sma 66]

Also, plenty of crouching there, which you kinda mentioned is non-existent.

I only disagree on this point, they do crouch, but here's how it works:

Default: Standing, joggging.

Takes contact: Stands still and looks at enemy, NEVER EVER SPRINTS WHEN CROUCHED

Shooting at enemy: Fires a few shots whilst standing, Turns slightly to either side for no reason, crouches to keep firing or prones and starts slowly spinning to either side.

This is what the AI always do, it's fairly predictable and makes them easy targets. I'd rather see them sprint/crouch sprint to cover on first contact.

Regarding medics: We should be the military simulator, I'd love to see a proper medical simulation with morphine and blood loss and all that jazz. I don't care about seeing the gore graphically, just the gameplay.

Regarding balance in general: We don't need it. What is this nonsense, this isn't a game where two equal 32 man teams get pitched against eachother... This isn't an arcade FPS. Why is any time being spent on this, making already unrealistic weapons even further from reality...?

I'd love to see the Arma series progressing not just graphically, but also in fidelity and gameplay. The movement and aiming changes are a decent start, they have their flaws but I much prefer the control over the weapon when standing, but there's more to do. Things that are making their way into arcade games because they make sense gameplay and realism wise, like bipods and weapon resting, are remarkably absent in Arma, the military simulator. What does this make Arma; the slightly clumsy FPS where you spend way less time fighting and way more time walking. That's not fun.

We're still using the VOIP system that Arma 1 got in a patch, why not try to implement something like ACRE. We're still missing weapon resting and bipods, even though the models all have bipods on them. We're still missing a medical system. We're still missing certain realistic features that modders have to add in, that not only make the game more of a simulator (which should be the goal of Arma, the box art of Arma 2 was right "thrilling realism/authentic simulation") but also make it more fun. Backblast, stamina (partially in A3) and more.

That's what the Arma fans want, not two equal sides duking it out. Give us Arma, not Battlefield (though I hate to make that comparison, it is quite apt here).

Edited June 24, 2013 by SQB-SMA

[Wolfstriked 11]

Right now servers have made it so that anyone can revive a downed player which furthers the movement away from the medic class sadly.For me the medic class should be needed and the only way you revive on battlefield.When I first started I would always be so grateful of medics and before I became a kills whore I would play as medic at times with the intent to help out first and foremost,as I presumed the medics before me did.:rolleyes:lol

But maybe they could be made to play differently.Like the people who like to transport soldiers to OA the medics class should be played by people that want to play it and not just for points whoring.If missions were in a way dependent on how good the medic takes care of his men then it would be a fun class to play.Have it so that every player not revived but instead respawns back at base the OA spawns one new enemy soldier.Make the timer to death much faster also so it places urgency on the medic.You could even give the medic special equipment that would be on a 2035 battlefield.I read today about a developing GPS battlefield computer that a squad leader carries that pinpoints his squads location on a GPS screen.Normal GPS shows your current location but this special GPS shows all the soldiers in a squad.Its heavy and could be part of a medics medkit....weighs 7 pounds and is kinda bulky.Could show at top an X with a distance to downed soldier etc.

Something needs to be done.

[Masharra 10]

The medic is always forced to help injured players. The medics have less freedom but is forced to interact with other people's mistakes. Most injured player know what to do: They fall back to a safer place and call for help. But disproportionately often you have to heal always the same player, again and again. It is like a Rambo-player, boosting his killratio, unable to work in a team. When I play as medic, I was always killed because I have to run to the neewbs --who are generally at the worst places-- and I get killed just only because of their incompetence.

Medic misconception. A medic does not foolishly run to the wounded to provide treatment. If the medic dies even more people will die.

Also Rambo-player is a problem of the norespawn pub friendly gametype.

The problem is the gametype not the medic.

Also please do not use the term public mission as the respawn happy type you are referring to is only part of it.

In no respawn scenarios the medic is one of the THEE most important positions often seeing the least amount of fire and requiring the most amount of patience.

Perhaps said gametype should remove the medic slot and just allow players to heal each other.

For a basic idea on roles

http://ttp2.dslyecxi.com/st_platoon.html

Suggest to all to read and understand for a truly better gameplay environment, then when you are done lobby for no-respawn, no-revive!

Edited June 25, 2013 by Masharra

[bad benson 1733]

i don't see why the "medic class" needs work to make it more interesting. i only mentioned it because with the magic FAKs it is now useless. what needs to be done is changing the FAKs at the very least. then the medic won't be pointless. i mean that's only my opinion but i never saw arma as a class based game.

i also think that if there's no real going back from getting shot that it would help a lot making things more plausible and interesting. the medic would just patch you up and keep you from losing more health. like he would just stabilize you. and the same should go for himself. he shouldn't be able to heal himself at all. just stabillize.

in short: FAKs against bleeding, medics against general trauma and more health loss.

that would create a culture of asking medics for help and bad medics being called out for being bad because they are actually needed. but much like lots of other developers these days BI seems to now think that people can't be trusted with the simplest tasks so they just give everyone a magical medikit.

and if there's no one/no one competent in the medic slot you just die. that's what happens when you get shot...and then you respawn:D

[chortles 263]

your post reminds me of the planetside 2 forums where people cry about how their favourite class has not enough advantages.

Admittedly I find this rather amusing in light of how Battlefield 3 dealt with this: namely, with only four classes the method was to make artificial gear restrictions. Emphasis on artificial, since some of these restrictions were direct changes compared to Bad Company 2 and BF4 has its own different gear restrictions as well, whereas Arma 3's classes are basically just "default premade loadouts". I will say however, Bad Benson, that after previous "balance" talk (before this topic, I mean back with the old MP balance thread) and seeing recent BI moves, it feels less like "BI feels that players can't be trusted with the simplest tasks" and more like "the onus is on the mission-maker to create imbalance and 'enforce' tactical gameplay, not us"...

Gotta say, some of the "default" small arms changes are interesting: the TRG rifles are now for the not-yet-implemented "GREEN Guerillas" and in 5.56 mm, the BLUFOR Recons use 6.5 mm MX's while the OPFOR Recons use 9 mm Vermin SBRs, the OPFOR now uses 7.62 x 51 mm for both their DMR and their LMG/SAW while BLUFOR uses 6.5 mm STANAG for both (20-round mags of 7.62 x 51 mm for Mk 18 ABR vs. 30-round mags of 6.5 mm STANAG for MXM, and 150-round belts of 7.62 x 51 mm vs. 100-round mags of 6.5 mm STANAG), the Mk 200 is moved over to Green Army (so now 200-round belts of nominal 6.5 mm) but they use the same 7.62 mm DMR as OPFOR... to say nothing of the vehicle differences.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Chortles

[-Coulum- 35]

it feels less like "BI feels that players can't be trusted with the simplest tasks" and more like "the onus is on the mission-maker to create imbalance and 'enforce' tactical gameplay, not us"...

Yes indeed. Seems like BIS is no longer making "the ultimate military simulator" and instead now making "The game that you can turn into the ultimate military simulator". Notice how there are tonnes of new scripting commands regarding bleeding, burning etc. yet none of that is ingame - either BIS simply hasn't finished these aspects yet and the current simplistic first aid is a place holder (got my fingers crossed) or BIS only plans to give us a solid base and the tools so we can do it ourselves.

Gotta say, some of the "default" small arms changes are interesting: the TRG rifles are now for the not-yet-implemented "GREEN Guerillas" and in 5.56 mm, the BLUFOR Recons use 6.5 mm MX's while the OPFOR Recons use 9 mm Vermin SBRs, the OPFOR now uses 7.62 x 51 mm for both their DMR and their LMG/SAW while BLUFOR uses 6.5 mm STANAG for both (20-round mags of 7.62 x 51 mm for Mk 18 ABR vs. 30-round mags of 6.5 mm STANAG for MXM, and 150-round belts of 7.62 x 51 mm vs. 100-round mags of 6.5 mm STANAG), the Mk 200 is moved over to Green Army (so now 200-round belts of nominal 6.5 mm) but they use the same 7.62 mm DMR as OPFOR... to say nothing of the vehicle differences.

Perhaps the Green army weapons/vehicles also used by opfor are place holders until more unique weapons/vehicles are created maybe?

Edited June 25, 2013 by -Coulum-

[bad benson 1733]

i was talking about the FAKs and not how "balanced" the sides are in this game. i couldn't care less about that. i'll fight you with a spoon, if i have to and have fun doing so:p.

i mean are there really that few people who find it strange that now suddenly every single soldier can heal himself? i mean once, ok. but infinite amount of times? that's just weak design. and it also breaks immersion. at least for me.

[-Coulum- 35]

i mean are there really that few people who find it strange that now suddenly every single soldier can heal himself? i mean once, ok. but infinite amount of times? that's just weak design. and it also breaks immersion. at least for me.

I absolutely hate it. Its not much better than COD regeneration. I am hoping that BIS has something up their sleeve because honestly I simply won't play mission that have it. Its far too gamey.

Its embarrassing when I show the game to friend and all its awesome/realistic features and then they figure out how dumb the medical system is.

[Variable 322]

i was talking about the FAKs and not how "balanced" the sides are in this game. i couldn't care less about that. i'll fight you with a spoon, if i have to and have fun doing so:p.

i mean are there really that few people who find it strange that now suddenly every single soldier can heal himself? i mean once, ok. but infinite amount of times? that's just weak design. and it also breaks immersion. at least for me.

I can say that there are a lot of players that see the current arcadey medical system as one of the biggest flaws of Arma 3. Many of them don't want to hear about Arma 3 until this particular design flaw is fixed. Unfortunately, they are not vocal, or no active at all on the BI forums.

No doubt however, the broken medical system is the most glaring flaw in Arma 3 at the moment.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

I only disagree on this point, they do crouch, but here's how it works:

Default: Standing, joggging.

Takes contact: Stands still and looks at enemy, NEVER EVER SPRINTS WHEN CROUCHED

Shooting at enemy: Fires a few shots whilst standing, Turns slightly to either side for no reason, crouches to keep firing or prones and starts slowly spinning to either side.

This is what the AI always do, it's fairly predictable and makes them easy targets. I'd rather see them sprint/crouch sprint to cover on first contact.

Yep, they often do the shuffle patterns like that as if to stay in formation when his "combat-buddy" or TL moves ever so slightly. If they're all stopped and engaging, it doesn't happen. In the last Infantry screenshot, you can see the first pair of "combat-buddies" and the other guy next to me is what I'm assuming my "combat-buddy". He was crouched and engaging, then I moved slightly and he went prone and turned to the side.

One thing I've observed they also stay crouched a lot more when in cover that provides more benefit when crouched than what I'm used to seeing, the binary "I'm prone and fully behind cover, now I'll stand up so I can get shot".

The point of my exercise above, is that I can't observe much "suicide" difference between A2 and A3 AI as metalcraze claimed, they seem, with negligible margin of difference, exactly the same amount of stupid, smart and insane in combat. You'll still get the insane 800m headshots in one run, but they'll still miss you 10 times standing 200 meters away from you in the other. They'll be really smart sometimes, and they'll be really dumb the other times.

[chrisb 196]

In my experience of A2 and A3, both AI’s are pretty poor, however, A3 AI look worse as there was so much depending on them. It was almost of no surprise that arma to arma 2 was little difference, but its just plain disappointing that the A3 AI is so bad, considering there have been mod’s that sorted all these problems out, years ago.

I don’t play using stock AI, haven’t done for many years now, but I don’t think the game is really aimed at SP now, more for the MP gamer market, pvp or mass coop shoot em up, where AI intelligence is of little concern. I know its gaming but its not gaming I and all of the players I know do, its what set the series apart and made it different, thats why the very talented mod makers made those AI mod/addons, they fully enhance the games potential, they saw it and players that use them see it too.

Great thanks to those mod/addon makers for making the game special.

Its not going to change that much over the next few years I don’t suppose, once it gets released proper and players pour in to play online MP, then the SP side is going to get more forgotten. Mod’s will have to save the day, but the mod’s I and all the players I know, plus those that contact me regards the mix I use, all use, or are starting to use, those mod’s just won’t be in A3, so we’re all, well, out on a limb really, those mod makers have all left it seems..

Its really just evolution of the brand if you like, it was inevitable that they went more towards the market they are moving toward, that’s where the business sense decides they should go. I know I get members saying I moan about AI too much, but that tends to come from the gamers side more than the regular (hobbyist) series players. Its o.k. talking about scopes and if a gun looks or sounds realistic or not, but what’s the point, if you play against AI to any degree, your not going to get a realistic game anyway, far from it, doesn’t matter what weapon your using. Its fine if your team/group are playing other groups, just if your team plays against AI or your playing SP, in-fact AI is needed in almost any situation in-game, either to fill in, make up numbers, or be the main enemy force.

Still there's modded Arma 2, life saver..

Another moan over..;):p

[metalcraze 290]

Also, plenty of crouching there, which you kinda mentioned is non-existent.

It's non-existent. Crouching at the cover spot that forces AI into crouch position doesn't count.

Crouching before going prone 2 seconds later also doesn't count. It's just a slow transition.

the doc gets shot while running to cover from the hill.

Here they are seconds after they defeated them all and annouced "clear" and moved off a bit.

As they start to move on to cover, one guy gets shot from the village.

Suddenly, two enemy AI appear way behind them and they're both dead.

Do you really find nothing wrong with this behavior? No pattern to this? Nothing wrong with them simply running into enemies?

If it was ArmA2 they would be sitting a lot tighter at the spot instead of "nobody is firing at us for 3 seconds it's clear let's move on OH SHI-!", wait for a lot longer to make sure it's 100% clear which would mean all those enemies that came at them from sides and the rear would be coming at them when they were still by the scripted medic event and thus would be at a disadvantage themselves.

What's worse is that the mission is very badly and heavily scripted PMC-style and there's no rush at all, yet AIs do rush.

[gossamersolid 155]

I can say that there are a lot of players that see the current arcadey medical system as one of the biggest flaws of Arma 3. Many of them don't want to hear about Arma 3 until this particular design flaw is fixed. Unfortunately, they are not vocal, or no active at all on the BI forums.

No doubt however, the broken medical system is the most glaring flaw in Arma 3 at the moment.

This problem can be bandaid'd with a simple scripting command BIS should implement:

unit canHeal boolean

Instead of the previous iterations of the engine where it was a hardcoded config value (annoying as ever for freedom in mission development).

This applies to the engineer ability as well.

The value would be defaulted to false unless you are a medic class that has the config value attendant=1, but mission developers could choose to allow other units to heal if they want.