ARMA III & Steam WORKSHOP

[Insanatrix 0]

What happens if your mission requires addons that aren't on the Workshop? Don't know anything about the Workshop-does it allow links to outside sites?

You can put links to them in the description AFAIK.

[suiside 95]

I really hope this doesn't affect community sites such as armaholic. The admins of those sites put a lot of work and contribute a lot to the community. I understand that any ad revenue they get hardly covers the server costs. If traffic dramatically decreases there would be little justification for those sites to continue.

funny thing is that when you see the forum here or at armaholic that traffic is your revenue, maybe for some it is a burden but it is also a prize to have visitors,

but my point was that i think that steam will decrease interest in the whole community and will focus solely on the finished products thereof,

like play with six, now there is an increase in users, but what when steam makes it all too simple, six will be less utilized, would that make him happy ?

and bad mouthing pws will increase due to the steam ease because fewer will try play with six.

people will lose touch with the modders because of automatic updates and thus it will be less looking for updates and appreciating progress reports and such.

but if you see it more positive and a plus that there will be less thinking involved in getting mods and installing mods with all that follows with that, (just look at politics for one big example) thats great, i hope you are right and that people and steam will respect and read up on and give fair platform to modders and the community in general.

my experience tells me that when things get more simple people get more simple and this comes with consequences.

[DaRkL3AD3R 1]

Steam Workshop integration is an evolution in the process of modding a game. It streamlines it so well that to not embrace it is to deny the future. Change happens all the time, sometimes it comes at a cost of something that once was great. It sucks that it means pretty much obsoleting an entire website and team, but that is the direction things go. You can't guilt trip Bohemia (and Valve) for implementing such a great feature just because it's going to hurt people's income.

[max power 21]

Steam Workshop integration is an evolution in the process of modding a game. It streamlines it so well that to not embrace it is to deny the future. Change happens all the time, sometimes it comes at a cost of something that once was great. It sucks that it means pretty much obsoleting an entire website and team, but that is the direction things go. You can't guilt trip Bohemia (and Valve) for implementing such a great feature just because it's going to hurt people's income.

Is someone putting a guilt trip on someone? You think anyone at valve feels bad about the prospect of community websites closing and the traffic being directed to their service? It's not an evolution in modding, it's an evolution in consuming mods. There is an important distinction there. ...unless users think they are 'modding' when they are moving a mod into a mods folder, or selecting a mod from a list of mods steam workshop :p

Edited June 2, 2013 by Max Power

[Insanatrix 0]

Is someone putting a guilt trip on someone? You think anyone at valve feels bad about the prospect of community websites closing and the traffic being directed to their service? It's not an evolution in modding, it's an evolution in consuming mods. There is an important distinction there. ...unless users think they are 'modding' when they are moving a mod into a mods folder, or selecting a mod from a list of mods steam workshop :p

Is your point to criticize those making use of mods or the opposition of Steamworks? I'm having a hard time telling.

My question is, why would Armaholic or a similar community site go under because you can now share missions and mods on Steam? Is it because of ease of access and more exposure to a wider audience? A more stable and quicker access avenue?

I mean I really don't see how it would hurt community sites like Armaholic, unless the community themselves adopt it as a new standard of releasing and acquiring missions and addons. If it does somehow put community sites out of business in a sense, I hate to say it but that's business and that's life. Generally if something better comes along and the majority adopts it, all the competition has to find a way to stay competitive. Again it all rely's on the community itself and what they find better and what they need.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Insanatrix

[DaRkL3AD3R 1]

Is your point to criticize those making use of mods or the opposition of Steamworks? I'm having a hard time telling.

As am I.

Good post too. Very objective. I'd say you get exactly what I was trying to say and know that that's reality. Oh well some people can't. Best of luck to Armaholic is all I have to say.

[ak1287 1]

Is your point to criticize those making use of mods or the opposition of Steamworks? I'm having a hard time telling.

My question is, why would Armaholic or a similar community site go under because you can now share missions and mods on Steam? Is it because of ease of access and more exposure to a wider audience? A more stable and quicker access avenue?

I mean I really don't see how it would hurt community sites like Armaholic, unless the community themselves adopt it as a new standard of releasing and acquiring missions and addons. If it does somehow put community sites out of business in a sense, I hate to say it but that's business and that's life. Generally if something better comes along and the majority adopts it, all the competition has to find a way to stay competitive. Again it all rely's on the community itself and what they find better and what they need.

[max power 21]

Is your point to criticize those making use of mods or the opposition of Steamworks? I'm having a hard time telling.

That's because you're looking for something that isn't there. I wasn't criticizing anyone.

It would put community sites out of business if their ad revenue no longer covered the server costs. I think I explained in my first post on the subject that I have heard that community sites aren't great money makers in the first place. If that is true, there would be little margin for a change in traffic. I hope that's clear now.

It's true 'that's life', things change, however not every change is welcome or good. If the community becomes even more impersonal as a result of steamworks, as suiside suggested, I would not consider that good. Community sites and the main forum are where modding knowledge gets passed around. I only answer questions and stuff because I'm already hanging around. If there was nothing for me here I would not be here to answer questions, for example.

If addon makers put anything they spent a great deal of time on on steamworks, I hope they would have done it fully informed. I will not be using the service to publish anything if their license is the same as it has been in the past. I'm not anti steam or valve. I use steam a lot

Edited June 2, 2013 by Max Power

[Insanatrix 0]

That's because you're looking for something that isn't there. I wasn't criticizing anyone.

It would put community sites out of business if their ad revenue no longer covered the server costs. I think I explained in my first post on the subject that I have heard that community sites aren't great money makers in the first place. If that is true, there would be little margin for a change in traffic. I hope that's clear now.

It's true 'that's life', things change, however not every change is welcome or good. If the community becomes even more impersonal as a result of steamworks, as suiside suggested, I would not consider that good. Community sites and the main forum are where modding knowledge gets passed around. I only answer questions and stuff because I'm already hanging around. If there was nothing for me here I would not be here to answer questions, for example.

If addon makers put anything they spent a great deal of time on on steamworks, I hope they would have done it fully informed. I will not be using the service to publish anything if their license is the same as it has been in the past. I'm not anti steam or valve. I use steam a lot

I'm not looking for anything, it's just how you come across. Judging from responses I might not be the only one.

I understand your cost to run a community site perspective. It's still up to the community to decide what it is that they prefer and what they want. They will do that by utilizing the service that best gives them what they want the most.

I.E. If people found Armaholic to be easier to use and navigate and can find what they want and if addon and mod makers continue to use Armaholic, then Steamworks really poses no threat. However if people find that Steamworks has what they want and addon/mod makers begin to use Steamworks for publishing, then perhaps it will pose a threat to sites like Armaholic.

Also how would a community become more impersonal through Steamworks? For the most part, Steamworks consists of literally everything that say Armaholic consists of for instance. There's forums for each game, there's comment sections for every mission/addon/mod etc... Aside from design layouts and general UI elements, which will differ from site to site anyways, the core of both services are literally the same. How do you see it making the community more impersonal?

The only thing that can make this community more impersonal is the community itself. You've got members who judge other members based on forum join dates and post counts and whether or not they've released mods and they get instant rock star status and the moderators that let it go on. Ostracizing newer members on the basis of "I don't agree with you, Oh look you joined yesterday and your post count is 1 trolololol/Rage of the gods" etc... Your basic ole boys club syndrome. Yet somehow we're worried that another service, which doesn't happen to be a part of the good ole boys/elitist crowd by the way, is going to ruin that good community feeling or make it impersonal :rolleyes:.

I'm also not saying you are anti Steam or anti Valve. I'm just saying that it's hard for someone as rooted into the current community as you are with as many ties to it, to be objectionable about something that could possibly negatively affect specific members of the community for the greater good of the overall community, even those outside of these forums.

[sakura_chan 9]

Well one thing for certain is that Armaholic is vastly superior to steam's system. Is there going to be a valve employee on here everyday adding every mission and posting weekly work in progress reports even without having them submitted to their site? Can I check steam workshop while waiting in line at the grocery store? I visit Armaholic like ten times a day and I rarely download addons at all.

[metalcraze 290]

Plus Steamworkshop won't download mods from a server you try to play on. Server has some mod that isn't at Workshop or uses a resigned version (which savvy admins do all the time for better security)? Tough luck, go to Armaholic / install Six Updater.

Except with Six Updater all of it is usually a matter of a few clicks to begin with and no need to run the game only to have to restart it again to activate downloaded mods.

At least I hope BIS will modify the engine to load mods on the fly since it would benefit all.

[max power 21]

I'm not looking for anything, it's just how you come across. Judging from responses I might not be the only one.

How you interpret what I say has more to do with you than it does with me. I mean what I say in plain English.

I understand your cost to run a community site perspective. It's still up to the community to decide what it is that they prefer and what they want. They will do that by utilizing the service that best gives them what they want the most.

I.E. If people found Armaholic to be easier to use and navigate and can find what they want and if addon and mod makers continue to use Armaholic, then Steamworks really poses no threat. However if people find that Steamworks has what they want and addon/mod makers begin to use Steamworks for publishing, then perhaps it will pose a threat to sites like Armaholic.

A couple of things: The community doesn't decide anything. Individuals decide. And easy isn't always the best thing. It's true that people who don't know better do tend to take the path of least resistance.

Also how would a community become more impersonal through Steamworks?

I think suiside already covered that.

The only thing that can make this community more impersonal is the community itself. You've got members who judge other members based on forum join dates and post counts and whether or not they've released mods and they get instant rock star status and the moderators that let it go on.

Yes, the moderators are here to enforce the forum rules, not babysit. One forum rule of particular interest right here is §18, so this line of discussion must stop now. If you have other criticisms of the way the forum is moderated, please take it to PM.

Ostracizing newer members on the basis of "I don't agree with you, Oh look you joined yesterday and your post count is 1 trolololol/Rage of the gods" etc... Your basic ole boys club syndrome. Yet somehow we're worried that another service, which doesn't happen to be a part of the good ole boys/elitist crowd by the way, is going to ruin that good community feeling or make it impersonal :rolleyes:.

This seems like black and white thinking. The two issues are not related, and are not mutually exclusive. If you have a problem with another forum member and have something to say to them, I suggest you PM them. If you think a forum member is breaking a forum rule, please report them.

I'm also not saying you are anti Steam or anti Valve. I'm just saying that it's hard for someone as rooted into the current community as you are with as many ties to it, to be objectionable about something that could possibly negatively affect specific members of the community for the greater good of the overall community, even those outside of these forums.

I think you overestimate how rooted I am in the community. I think you're saying that I object to Steam Workshop, which is not the case. I think the best word to describe my opinion about SW is probably apathetic. Here is a recap of the opinions I expressed: I object to the Steam Workshop license and will not use it as is. I also hope that SW doesn't have a negative impact on community sites like armaholic. I am hopeful that arrests any confusion about what I was saying.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Max Power

[ballistic09 241]

Steam Workshop integration is an evolution in the process of modding a game. It streamlines it so well that to not embrace it is to deny the future. Change happens all the time, sometimes it comes at a cost of something that once was great.

TIL

Progress = Giving up my rights so that, for others, a three step process becomes a two step process.

Sounds about right actually... :rolleyes:

[Alwarren 2767]

Steam Workshop integration is an evolution in the process of modding a game. It streamlines it so well that to not embrace it is to deny the future.

Have you read the license agreement?

[Dwarden 1125]

well, my personal aim is to allow sites like armaholic, ofpec or sixnetworks software to be able utilize the STEAMworks ...

if just read-only (e.g. for mirroring) or something more that's still unclear ...

@xeno: report them ... not much different than someone publishing them to armaholic, ofpec, sixnetworks or moddb or else ...

[PuFu 4600]

well, my personal aim is to allow sites like armaholic, ofpec or sixnetworks software to be able utilize the STEAMworks ...

if just read-only (e.g. for mirroring) or something more that's still unclear ...

@xeno: report them ... not much different than someone publishing them to armaholic, ofpec, sixnetworks or moddb or else ...

Why would armaholic, six etc etc mirror content from steam workshop? a bit counter intuitive i'd say.

Moreso, regarding xeno's reply: the main difference between publishing something on aholic or six vs workshop is that in the first case i'm nit waving my ip rights goodbye, plus i can contact sickboy or foxhound in 2 seconds via skype and have the files taken down in less than 30 mins most of the times...steam "take down" action can take up to months.

And btw, isnt steam workshop capped at 10mbs per file now?

[[aps]gnat 28]

well, my personal aim is to allow sites like armaholic, ofpec or sixnetworks software to be able utilize the STEAMworks ....

Huh!?

I'm with PuFu as well, why the hell would they go down that route?

Being just a mirror for SWS hardly seems appropriate for an independant fan site.

I certainly wouldn't be interested in such a site if thats all they are doing.

EDIT: BTW I'd say the same if you'd said BIS themselves was going to host mods

[Dwarden 1125]

@pufu so you trying to claim missions are published only on armaholic and sixnetworks?

bit short sighted... there exist moddb or else (quite some smaller regional sites like armaholic exist) ...

steamworkshop is just another place ...

same goes about the mirroring bit ... one mirror more or less isn't going to change the way things work

not to mention the utilization is fully optional

would be nice to stop thinking about everything negatively and try utilize the usable portion of it

[PuFu 4600]

@pufu so you trying to claim missions are published only on armaholic and sixnetworks?

bit short sighted... there exist moddb or else (quite some smaller regional sites like armaholic exist) ...

Oh, by no means no. To keep it simple (and no pun intended to the other community hosting websites similar to armaholic), i called them all armaholic (i know there are a lot more, aa.info, ofpect (to a certain degree) etc etc), and six network with is one of a kind.

I am also well aware of moddb, as well as so many others methods to host addons and mods (personal FTPs, cloud storage etc).

steamworkshop is just another place ...

Yes, it is, except:

1. the whole purpose of workshop would be have the download process automated based on server requirements, which by the sounds of it is not gonna happen.

2. it has the stupidest sort of EULA i have ever seen around. You cannot deny the fact that a service that makes you give over your IP rights in order to host your files is not something this community will take lightly

same goes about the mirroring bit ... one mirror more or less isn't going to change the way things work

yes, especially if one of the most requested and desired feature for arma (automated mod download and server join) is not gonna happen even with workshop integration.

would be nice to stop thinking about everything negatively and try utilize the usable portion of it

I am not negative. Not one bit. But then again, i would like to know a bit more about steamworks, if you have the data:

1. who will be doing the moderation? steam or bi

2. what will be the size limit for the files uploaded

3. will the eula remain the same.

4. will there be any sort of automation and integration?

[Dwarden 1125]

nobody said the automated mission download for servers/players joining server with SWSed mission or similar can't happen,

what you see in video is one of first working steamworkshop feature integration ... consider it glimpse on possibilities

the questions you ask about are subject of constant changes and wip so no point to answer them

(let say example, the size one is was already dozens MB , can be set in hundreds MBs and if needed even become more)

[Simas 12]

yes, especially if one of the most requested and desired feature for arma (automated mod download and server join) is not gonna happen even with workshop integration.

The auto-mod download is a nice concept.. and probably has already been discussed to death. But if implemented, how do you solve the following two fundamental issues:

- Auto-downloading huge (sound) mods?

- Using something like the new callExtension interface with custom DLL to inject a client connected to a server with a virus?

[PuFu 4600]

nobody said the automated mission download for servers/players joining server with SWSed mission or similar can't happen,

what you see in video is one of first working steamworkshop feature integration ... consider it glimpse on possibilities

the questions you ask about are subject of constant changes and wip so no point to answer them

(let say example, the size one is was already dozens MB , can be set in hundreds MBs and if needed even become more)

I am one of the growing old around those forums, and that also means less time to play, and in this case less time to hunt for addons required by a particular server, so such an option would be loved even by players such as myself who know how do to it manually, but lack the time.

fair point on the wip status, but i am actually more interested into what is the objective/scope you are trying to achieve rather than what is done NOW, or even what is possible from your current perspective.

The auto-mod download is a nice concept.. and probably has already been discussed to death. But if implemented, how do you solve the following two fundamental issues:

- Auto-downloading huge (sound) mods?

It should ask before downloading anything (i assume this was already common knowledge).

- Using something like the new callExtension interface with custom DLL to inject a client connected to a server with a virus?

That can also be done by downloading such file from any other 3rd party repository

[inlesco 233]

Speaking of Steam Workshop file size limits, the default is 10MB max. I guess upon a certain developer's request, it can be increased significantly (i.e., Skyrim's WS = 100MB max). But I very much doubt WS will ever let people upload files larger than ~500MB (~90% of A2CO mods I've used personally), even considering my statement as speculation.

Of course, you can always split a .rar into parts and upload it to WS, if that's allowed (which I'm not sure).

[DaRkL3AD3R 1]

Have you read the license agreement?

Were you going to sell your Arma 3 missions? Oh wait, you can't because they never belonged to you in the first place.

You still get credit for making the missions/mods/whatever, you just give up the right to sell them. Which is redundant, because you never had that right in the first place. Sure if you made a model and textured it 100% yourself, you could have turned around and sold it to some company. But then, releasing it simultaneously as a mod for free wouldn't bode too well would it?

[Alwarren 2767]

Were you going to sell your Arma 3 missions? Oh wait, you can't because they never belonged to you in the first place.

Just because I can't sell them doesn't mean someone else should be able to. And just because I can't sell them doesn't mean I don't own them.

You still get credit for making the missions/mods/whatever, you just give up the right to sell them. Which is redundant, because you never had that right in the first place. Sure if you made a model and textured it 100% yourself, you could have turned around and sold it to some company. But then, releasing it simultaneously as a mod for free wouldn't bode too well would it?

Did you actually *read* the license agreement? Perhaps you should do that first.