TAB lock issue ...

[[frl]myke 14]

Well,you can send a Mk82 from 5 km altitude to a guy that your AI reports using target list ... hopefully,this will change with CCP,but things needs to be improved in arma 3 :D

I completely agree with this, unguided bombs shouldn't be guided ingame. Also agree to the Metis which should use proper TOW guidance which already exists ingame. But are we talking about some single weapons and their locking ability or TAB locking in general?

[chortles 263]

This is why i think that ArmA without a proper targetting system and a proper vehicle damage models ... will never take itself to the next level !

Unfortunately we may well be reaching the peak of what is possible under Real Virtuality -- that is, there may not be a "next level"! -- if maturin is correct in that "This stuff is too deep in the engine to be fixed by even the best modders we have, especially at the UI and controls level" along with a possibility of the devs either finding the cost/benefit ratio not in favor of change (from a developers' POV, no matter how much players dislike it*) or the current devs/programmers just not having the ability to fix it (kind of like the AI).

It's good at increasing pilot workload because the control scheme associated with it is more complicated than default (and again, as a default requirement its a terrible idea for BIS...it must remain an option only, or a mod).

This is what so many people do not get about their "milsim realism" ideas, thank you for realizing otherwise.

...and again lets not forget this is a franchise mainly and originally focussed upon fighting AI...and programming something of this nature into AI is not yet feasible with today's technology...the performance hit is not worth the trouble. So again...it becomes a PvP feature....and the day that BIS starts prioritizing for PvP over AI is the day that I and countless others will walk away for good.

What are you doing still here then? :D

* After all, the devs did find cost/benefit ratio of going Steamworks to be favorable for development, also no matter how much players dislike it. :p

If [FRL]Myke is correct, then that should only need a switch in their "guidance-or-non-guidance"?

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Yeah ... TABlocking in general ,those were examples to show how TAB lock makes an old weapon as good as a high tech one !

@maturin

Just question of desync problems on MP ,two players on one chopper is not a good idea in general unless you're playing some really light mission !

Besides the targetting list should be improved to show only targets that are inside the visible range of the vehicle and needs to discard targets as soon as they re not visible anymore ! ... i used to take a MLRS with AI as gunner ,get on a high point of the map ... ask my AI to target ennemies reported by other AI inside ennemy base 3 km away then CTRL+Click ==== > pure magic i hit guys -.-

Edited March 13, 2013 by On_Sabbatical

[bigshot 64]

The idea that FCS will detract from or slow down AI doesn't pass the straight face test.

But take it from a card-carrying AI-lover... when the hell has BIS EVER prioritized their AI?!?

no, im saying the opposite...anything that requires a more complicated control scheme will slow down HUMANS...making the AI more difficult to defend against since they will not be bound by the same rules.

yep, in a way I agree...over the years I would have preferred to see BIS put alot more time and effort into improving their AI "intelligence" and not just their spotting and aiming accuracy. In fairness to BIS AI is the most difficult, time consuming and expensive coding aspect of the game, however...some of the things I see (and DONT see) in Arma3 make me a tad nervous. It has become obvious that BIS has been grossly neglecting the scope and abilities of their AI. Yes there are SOME improvements in the A3 AI, but thus far in Alpha not nearly as much as is required to impress or even convince me that any real love has gone into this aspect.

Edited March 13, 2013 by BigShot

[maturin 12]

no, im saying the opposite...anything that requires a more complicated control scheme will slow down HUMANS...making the AI more difficult to defend against since they will not be bound by the same rules.

Eh, not really a big deal. How often do you get in Mexican standoffs with Hellfire-wielding AI anyways. I played with Mando for months and it just wasn't an issue. The AI's lack of logic already handicaps them severely and will always do so.

if maturin is correct in that "This stuff is too deep in the engine to be fixed by even the best modders we have, especially at the UI and controls level" along with a possibility of the devs either finding the cost/benefit ratio not in favor of change (from a developers' POV, no matter how much players dislike it*) or the current devs/programmers just not having the ability to fix it (kind of like the AI).

That's a realllly bad conclusion to draw from my post. NouberNou has posted videos proving that you could implement DCS-type controls in ArmA if you really wanted to, and Mando has created incredibly complex FCS systems. It's not that it's difficult to do, it's just that modders (and only the modders), lack the basic access necessary to do it in a practical way. They rely on workarounds, when BIS can just go directly into their own code. So stop being defeatist about it.

Just question of desync problems on MP ,two players on one chopper is not a good idea in general unless you're playing some really light mission !

Besides the targetting list should be improved to show only targets that are inside the visible range of the vehicle and needs to discard targets as soon as they re not visible anymore ! ... i used to take a MLRS with AI as gunner ,get on a high point of the map ... ask my AI to target ennemies reported by other AI inside ennemy base 3 km away then CTRL+Click ==== > pure magic i hit guys -.-

I've flown Apaches on an enormous mission hosted by my own weak-ass CPU and nothing terrible happened. Same thing with my clan.

And the targeting menu is inconsistent but does drop targets off eventually. And the gunners will only engage perceived positions, just like any other AI. Why shouldn't other units be able to spot for them?

Edited March 13, 2013 by maturin

[spamurai 3]

ArmA 3 may take place in the future... but not all scenario's ArmA players will want to play are set in the future.

Tab-Target is among the more aggravating features of gameplay built into the ArmA game. I remember in ArmA 1 have hilarious it made the KAMOV Attack Helicopter. You could simply fly over the area and the AI would start auto-spotting things like crazy. Meanwhile all you were doing was Tab-Targeting and spamming missiles that launched out of your helicopter in all directions. Annihilating tanks, cars, trucks and even over aircraft for miles around.

yea... great fun in PVP.

Keep in mind, Tab-Targeting often worked in more then just Helicopters and jets... it pretty much worked in anything mechanical mounting a weapon of some type.

So, while in a futuristic scenario we might have these advanced "Smart" targeting systems, it is a module that should be customizable on or off in gameplay. That way when players want to create content and scenarios from the Cold War era, the World War era or even today's Modern Era, they can tailor these modules to suit their preferences.

ArmA is a "sandbox", not just a Campaign Story.... when you design and embed these types of gameplay mechanics you have to consider that players will want to create additional content and gameplay and the engine should be flexible enough to accommodate different intentions with new forms of gameplay in mind.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

E

I've flown Apaches on an enormous mission hosted by my own weak-ass CPU and nothing terrible happened. Same thing with my clan.

And the targeting menu is inconsistent but does drop targets off eventually. And the gunners will only engage perceived positions, just like any other AI. Why shouldn't other units be able to spot for them?

Should drop off faster ... and my suggestion is that targets reported by AI miles away have no place in the targetting list !

[maturin 12]

Actually, that's a good idea. Instead of the normal target menu, given vehicle gunners a list of target that are currently within parameters for their weapon.

[nodunit 397]

That's a realllly bad conclusion to draw from my post. NouberNou has posted videos proving that you could implement DCS-type controls in ArmA if you really wanted to.

And with his help in collaboration with Franze, they were able to achieve this

before pressing the cockpit buttons, a command for not only each button knob and button but also a different command for each active page.

Pilot controlled guns with freelook, weapon computers that will slave the gun to an object such as a vehicle or structure, rockets that follow elevation trajectory, missiles of different type that inhibit different characteristics and required acquisition source and are useable by AI, digital displays that behave like digital displays, an integrated damage system that links to weapon and video process, targetting computers, separate engines, oil and hydraulics and up to having damage appear on certain parts of the model, having a visual loss of body components such as a torn wing and more.

If a CPG human has a list, which when selected activates a reticle then it's just an organized tab lock, laser designation would add both authenticity, work load and difficulty. Helicopters have a great FOV but they are hardly all seeing, tab lock damages the requirement for situational awareness, forward scouting and surveying the combat radius.

PIP offers a great chance to up the anty but it needs to share the same characteristics of optics view otherwise you are punishing people with lower end systems, and likewise detracting the usefulness of what PIP could be as a navigation and acquisition tool which it currently is only good for close ranges.

Edited March 13, 2013 by NodUnit

[jgbtl292 0]

We don't want to remove things to solve the problem,or to limit ranges ... we want just to have a game in which having AIR (because TAB lock affects air more than any other vehicle or launcher) doesn't necessarely mean dominating ... we want people to have the chance to use stealth tactics for example even when TABvehicles are up ...

I am sure that if you manage to get under an apache with M16 you would be able to disable the heli's avionics and targetting ... but it's impossible with TABlock since the guy will just ask his lovely AI ... "Target that maaaan AT 06" and the AI will get that square on you even if the player hasn't seen you ...

This is why i think that ArmA without a proper targeting system and a proper vehicle damage models ... will never take itself to the next level !

thats the point ;) the all killings air in seconds all was moved on ground or behind hills - no cover nothing and in arma2 no chance when ka copters in air ( no aa long range on blufor side to )

not all will play only coop vs ai or mission with fixed targets. i have play only warfare 5 jears ^^ no other game and the fuck easy air kill. thats was the point and i have say bye bye ... 4 overpowered copters in the air on high altitude - and the only what you can made is walk ^^ ( thats on the wasteland islands in arma 3 - is deadly for pvp - and this was in arma2 to !! or the tab bombs on the harrier. fly to the target on all levels on all speed drop from all directions ..... you have made a 100% hit thats to easy

---------- Post added at 17:36 ---------- Previous post was at 16:59 ----------

for the airkillers little swiches fpr more gameplay

-longer reload time

-warm up time for rockets 30 sec

-laser guidet rockets - only one rocket. when you fire the next on a other target, the first rocket loosing the conection. same for drop bombs or paveway. when cut the sight line to target. bomb lose connection.

-fire and forget - identify your target then first lock.

same for it - a lower fire sequence

-you can only lock targets with an target cam.( pip ? ) look in the cam for targets then look it. ( or you have dudes with laser on the ground. )

-no parachute for pilotmodels / only a good fly control with pilotmodels - stopped the base killers and the one men copter behind the lines suicide rambos. you will go out ? LAND IT

-you can only lock targets with an target cam.( pip ? ) look in the cam for targets then look it. ( or you have dudes with laser on the ground. )

for the dudes in the ground targets

- in arma 3 we have a little smoke cycle for countermeasure....

-make a smoke wall - 10 meters high in front ... not a mini cycle around the vehicle. and make different smoke !

now we have small smoke in colors - this smoke is in real live only for marking the same smoke is in white for the countermeasures in the vehicles in arma :/ !!! he is small and have no ir-block

give us the defend ir-block smoke whhere build a wall in frond of smoke ;)

give us barracuda camo nets.

[4 IN 1 0]

Its still up to the dev, If they don't want to change a jack shit it doesn't matter what we said, isn't it?

Anyways, having the game automatically identify and sort out friend and foe is not the problem, simply locking and cycle through them with tab key and tab key only is the porblem, even forcing everyone to have a crosshair on the target to lock would be better. With that said, remove cycle target function will be a start, with that set it would only left the problem of correctly modeling different behavior for different weapon/system when hitting Tab.

Edited March 24, 2013 by 4 IN 1

[oxmox 73]

I did not try Arma 3 so far, but if TAB is still ingame I have a bad feeling about the other improvements we did hope for, to make a jump away from arcadish gameplay. I hope not Arma 3 will be more a graphical overhaul instead of an improvement of the gameplay....

[twistking 204]

ticket is up. please see my signature! :)

[Steakslim 1]

ticket is up. please see my signature! :)

who the hell would down vote such a thing?

[b00ce 160]

who the hell would down vote such a thing?

Me.

Tab-Lock isn't such a horrible thing. You guys act like its the devil. There are FAR more pressing issues at the moment, like fixing the broken Geo lods (Poor Flight model) and fixing Autorotation. I would rather have a more authentic Flight model than no tab-lock. You can mod all the highspeed targeting systems into the game (See ACE and Mando). Fixing the FM isn't really possible/easy for us modders.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

Me.

Tab-Lock isn't such a horrible thing. You guys act like its the devil. There are FAR more pressing issues at the moment, like fixing the broken Geo lods (Poor Flight model) and fixing Autorotation. I would rather have a more authentic Flight model than no tab-lock. You can mod all the highspeed targeting systems into the game (See ACE and Mando). Fixing the FM isn't really possible/easy for us modders.

Because,you spend the whole day,raping AI tanks with your 24 missiles HELI ... TAB lock is one of the main reasons why the PVP scene on this game is dead,and people migrate to non military game mods ! the fights on warfare missions (for example) are just TAB wars on every server,and it's just not funny at all !

Fixing the FM isn't really possible/easy for us modders.

Like if,TAB lock was a matter of two scripting lines ... not even an onTargetLOcked event -.-

[progamer 14]

Because,you spend the whole day,raping AI tanks with your 24 missiles HELI ... TAB lock is one of the main reasons why the PVP scene on this game is dead,and people migrate to non military game mods ! the fights on warfare missions (for example) are just TAB wars on every server,and it's just not even funny-

I would expect a comment like that from the battlelog forums. Not everyone plays PvP, Arma has never been solely about PvP ever. Not everyone has the exact same opinion as you of what needs fixing either.

[kotov12345 10]

I would expect a comment like that from the battlelog forums. Not everyone plays PvP, Arma has never been solely about PvP ever. Not everyone has the exact same opinion as you of what needs fixing either.

don't say that - many players think exactly the same.ACE tab modified,pr tab removed,almost every addon coder tried to remove it.Most logical approach will be to have settings for server admin.If you coop lover play with tab,if you run serious game server admin you should have possibility to control it. There are a lot of ways to change current game play - but imho main problem bosses dont want do anything at all.

[twistking 204]

i don't care about pvp - for me arma was always about cooperative play.

the current system just bugs me, because it is just so unrealistic and un-immersive.

progamer, you are one of those, who always say the current system should stay. i'm really astonished by that: do you really like the current system because of gameplay, or because you really think that the system is in any form even remotely realistic?

[progamer 14]

don't say that - many players think exactly the same.ACE tab modified,pr tab removed,almost every addon coder tried to remove it.Most logical approach will be to have settings for server admin.If you coop lover play with tab,if you run serious game server admin you should have possibility to control it. There are a lot of ways to change current game play - but imho main problem bosses dont want do anything at all.

I've never used tab but the way he responded to someone who thought there were bigger priorities like the TOH FM, was really childish.

---------- Post added at 18:35 ---------- Previous post was at 18:34 ----------

i don't care about pvp - for me arma was always about cooperative play.

the current system just bugs me, because it is just so unrealistic and un-immersive.

progamer, you are one of those, who always say the current system should stay. i'm really astonished by that: do you really like the current system because of gameplay, or because you really think that the system is in any form even remotely realistic?

I never said I want it to stay, all I have said is I want a more realistic real life solution and not a more arcade solution to "be more fun".

[twistking 204]

@progamer: ok. my fault. i just misunderstood.

do you think that the ticket i made is still aiming to much at "fun" and "balancing"?

like most of us, i'm all for realism. i just wanted to point out, that a more realistic fcs would also directly benefit gameplay not only for simulation-fans but also for more casual players, because of the different interesting mechanics offered by different types of weapon systems.

for the prople who haven't yet seen it:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=10323 :)

---------- Post added at 18:57 ---------- Previous post was at 18:50 ----------

I would just like to highlight a part of the ticket, that hasn't been discussed much:

The proper HUD-implementation. I think that is very important. At the moment it feels like you communicate with the "game", because this white osd is a game overlay. If you would transfer the target acquisition and locking on target to the simulated HUD of the helicopter itself it would be much more realistic and immersive immediately. At the moment the proper vehicle hud does not work properly: If you use free-look, alls hud-elements move with the view. Of course the target markers should stay at their relative positions, otherwise the hud is useless.

In this regard (and ONLY in this regard!!!) even the battlefield series, has a more "authentic" feel to the helicopters:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111230015259/battlefield/images/thumb/2/20/Battlefield-3-cobra-4.jpg/640px-Battlefield-3-cobra-4.jpg

Also imagine how cool (and realistic) it would be using the pip-feature for target identification, like in reality. On the HUD you would have just a green marker around the potential target without any info about unit type.

Your screen in the cockpit would then show a life-video-feed of the helicopters targeting-system (for example: FLIR), basically giving you a zoomed-in view of the target for identifications.

http://www.abload.de/img/a10train02vc77.png

Edited June 27, 2013 by twistking

[On_Sabbatical 11]

It's not about balance at all ... TAB lock even balances sometimes by unifying the targetting systems ... making an Apache and Mi24V on the same level ...

You can't defend TAB lock from any point of view : realism,balance,gameplay !

When a pilot jumps in his F22,it's not by pressing the BIG red button that he will lock on a target ! any targetting system in the world no matter how sophisticated it is, needs some kind of preparation and initial informations ... you dont acquire targets from no where -.-

Personally ,i am not even asking BIS for some big effort to bring DCS like systems,but just to make the targetting more challenging,since their TAB banana is not realistic anyway ! it will also give some special "thing" to the different vehicles !

[Beagle 684]

Should I create new ticket for arma4 ? As still no changes since 2009 I'm pretty sure this not will be fixed even in a3

There is no significant change since 2001.

[[evo] dan 79]

Maybe they could bring the TOH Hind FCS over, that was a pretty decent middle ground. (SACLOS needed actual guiding, no tab lock on it, same with rockets)

[-=seany=- 5]

Dan;2426276']Maybe they could bring the TOH Hind FCS over' date=' that was a pretty decent middle ground. (SACLOS needed actual guiding, no tab lock on it, same with rockets)[/quote']

That sounds very interesting. I am not familiar with ToH at all, but if such a system already exists, then it would be damn shame to not make use of it for Arma3.