Take Downs.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

I voted yes, because I want them, but dont honestly believe we need them.

If they are included they need to end up in a noisy yelling, grunting tussel. So the victor is animation bound till the knifing is resolved, then he needs to get up from the ground and gather himself.

I believe this is how the majority of knifing ends up. Sure there are tacticool methods that are very effective against deaf blind noobs, but over a decade of melee combat training showed me tacticool vs tacticool comes back to prolonged grunty fighting, they just dont scream as much.

Probably more important than just demanding another feature, is finding out whether BIS has left a door open for MODs to develope this.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Pathetic_Berserker

[NeMeSiS 11]

I wouldn't mind seeing a return of the good old strokegun/strokefist, but that's about it.

[Crierd 24]

What Military are you a part of? I can't smoke joe because He cried home to mommy about Mr. Sgt is sooo mean to me.. They would never let me teach joe how to slit a throat... I mean I guess maybe I am just a Grunt and not some super secret 42A....

I'm a very special member of the SF. Making me double special.

Joking aside, check out this link.

http://library.enlisted.info/field-manuals/series-2/FM21_150/CH7.PDF

I've seen other military manuals before that specifically mention the thrusting forward motion because you're able to conjure up more power from a forward thrust, plus it's safer to cut away from yourself rather than towards yourself. A little googling and you might be able to find the manual I'm talking about. I'm too lazy right now to find it though.

I agree that we should be able to take out enemy silently, but it should be for only the spec ops class given the nature of their work. Infantry is trained on hand to hand combat, but special operations troops are trained in a way where it can affect certain missions that they undertake. So, my feel is that it should be in the game, but very limited. However, EVERY mission that I went on, I carried a knife. It was not just for combat, but for survival as well if I had ever become separated from my squad. There are many uses to the knife and one of them was giving you the ability to still be dangerous without having to use a firearm.

But for Arma 3, it would need to be very limited given the gameplay. I think a better compromise would be allowing all troops to have a knife along with knifing animations and the ability to melee with it in direct confrontation, but that "takedowns" are done only by spec ops classes.

I disagree a bit. While of course it should be up to the mission maker if the feature is even in the mission, in the many years I have been playing ArmA 1, 2, and now 3, I have found myself in several situations where I was hunting a sniper, or found myself by mistake behind an enemy player. I don't think it would be hard for a regular infantry guy to be able to plunge a knife into the throat of someone from behind, or to drop down into the back of a sniper, knees spread, pinning them down whilst strangling them to death.

As far as I'm aware, and feel free to correct me if I am, but I don't think SOF even train much in melee combat, making them all ~that~ much more effective at sentry removal than your typical soldier with the some good ol' know how and the tools such as a knife or garrote.

Clearly it should be emphasized that this could very easily turn into a gimmicky or hollywood feature, but it does happen in real life I suppose.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Crierd

[rye1 21]

SOF train for melee, it is one of the subtopics and cross-links of the umbrella term of close quarter battle. As do regular infantry, if you analyze LINES they come up with a lot of conceptual philosophy around non-projectile weaponry function within enclosed spaces. So, yes. Melee, blades, whatever. That "thrust" is called the carry-off, you shock the body - and hit multiple points around the same time. Though since Iraq, I believe basic and other training content has been modified and I know that they decreased hand-to-hand content probably from being advised of the usefulness of other content in Iraq and Afghanistan OVER that topic.

[johncage 30]

this isn't medieval warfare. get close, one shot to the head.

SOF train for melee, it is one of the subtopics and cross-links of the umbrella term of close quarter battle. As do regular infantry, if you analyze LINES they come up with a lot of conceptual philosophy around non-projectile weaponry function within enclosed spaces. So, yes. Melee, blades, whatever. That "thrust" is called the carry-off, you shock the body - and hit multiple points around the same time. Though since Iraq, I believe basic and other training content has been modified and I know that they decreased hand-to-hand content probably from being advised of the usefulness of other content in Iraq and Afghanistan OVER that topic.

you want that? cool, it's basically a win button you press when close to an enemy then. yeah i've seen the hunted staring benecio del toro and tommy lee jones too. i'll bet in combat, no one really takes that risk. it's a last resort self defense technique.

[rye1 21]

Did I say I wanted that? He was pointing out something he couldn't describe so I gave him what he was searching in his head for.

Personally I think any kind of realistic melee is too complex leaving you with a one button option which is yet again not worth the effort.

If it was like M&B with the clicking to conduct a stabbing motion animation then I could live with that. Modders could use it. I wouldn't want it to be in the vanilla gameplay I use just yet.

There is no jamming currently in vanilla, and other options aren't available to make a melee feature actually useful but the closeness is apparent, and people finally realize that with distance comes a wider variety of response. And with that comes a wide variety of features that are plausible.

[QuiteFranklyMyMaN 1]

I wantz meleee. GIf meeeee!

[bugkill 7]

I'm a very special member of the SF. Making me double special.

Joking aside, check out this link.

http://library.enlisted.info/field-manuals/series-2/FM21_150/CH7.PDF

I've seen other military manuals before that specifically mention the thrusting forward motion because you're able to conjure up more power from a forward thrust, plus it's safer to cut away from yourself rather than towards yourself. A little googling and you might be able to find the manual I'm talking about. I'm too lazy right now to find it though.

I disagree a bit. While of course it should be up to the mission maker if the feature is even in the mission, in the many years I have been playing ArmA 1, 2, and now 3, I have found myself in several situations where I was hunting a sniper, or found myself by mistake behind an enemy player. I don't think it would be hard for a regular infantry guy to be able to plunge a knife into the throat of someone from behind, or to drop down into the back of a sniper, knees spread, pinning them down whilst strangling them to death.

As far as I'm aware, and feel free to correct me if I am, but I don't think SOF even train much in melee combat, making them all ~that~ much more effective at sentry removal than your typical soldier with the some good ol' know how and the tools such as a knife or garrote.

Clearly it should be emphasized that this could very easily turn into a gimmicky or hollywood feature, but it does happen in real life I suppose.

Trust me on this. Infantry are far more than likely to be involved with a hand to hand combat situation (with the possibility of using a knife) before being "sneaky sneaky" with a knife slicing someone's throat. Do we train on cutting throats and inflicting serious knife wounds? Absolutely. Is it necessary for this game to have that ability beyond spec ops classes? No. All combat soldiers prefer using a gun instead of a knife and that includes while being in a CQB situation. However, there are a very small number of units in the military that would use a knife instead of gun in certain missions and they are either in special operations or reconnaissance units, not infantry. A unit's mission dictates what applications they use and the infantry would more than likely use a knife in a defensive or offensive situation while in close physical combat during a combat mission. Special Mission and Recon units have a skill set where the use of the knife can be part of their mission success in certain operations, but it is not their main focus.

Also, when I did serve in a special operations unit, we absolutely trained on combatives and knife fighting. From the SOF operator on down to the cook, we all did the training at the battalion level (Not sure about HQ or the GSB, but I know they train a lot as well).

Edited March 8, 2013 by bugkill

[ajsarge 10]

While I agree with the idea of adding melee, I don't want it to turn into a BF3-style insta-takedown or a CoD-style slash-fest.

This starts when you're within 1 meter (or arm's length, whatever you prefer) you get a menu option of "Knife". This can be done from any direction, but the likelihood of getting in someone's face who has a gun ready is low. The Knife option starts a QTE event between the players. Let's say player A starts the chain against Player B. Once A hits "Knife", B gets a QTE of W A S or D. Successfully hitting the correct key keeps the attacker from killing you. It then goes to the attacker, and if he hits the correct key, the fight continues. If player B then hits the wrong key, they are killed. but, if A hits the wrong key as an attacker, he's overtaken and is now on the defense while B is now attacking. If A now hits wrong, A is killed. This lasts as long as both players keep hitting the right (or wrong, or no) keys.

Make sense?

A: "Knife"

B: OK

A: OK

B: OK

A: OK

B: Wrong

B: Dead

A: "Knife"

B: OK

A: Wrong

Turnover

B: OK

A: Wrong

A: Dead

The fighting animations can be cobbled together from 4 or 5 different individual grappling animations. The "Knife" option is only added to a mission by the editor, and only applies to units/groups synced to the module.

[Elena 2]

We have spec ops, and Divers, so, jup, we need knives. Not neccesarily for Takedowns, but stabbing someone in need *is* plausible, and the knife could also be held during actions such as disarming stuff. Hand-to-Hand combat can be great to takedown enemies on close range if they don't notice you, and it is indeed possible to do so quietly.

Our training looked somewhat like this - draw Knife right-handed, grab opponents head with the left handd, attack neck and face with the palm of said hand. this, due to toe impact and shock would probably stun them for a brief second. Proceed covering their mouth with your left hand as you would then knuckle their forehead with the knives grip with full force. It wouldn't make much noise, but effectively knock them out. Killing is performed with a straight stab in the liver. Also, you do not want to let them fall over but hold their body and lay then down gently, as this would cause by far the most noise.

Restrictions are, this will work with most targets on a terrorist/drug cartel/guerillia base. If you would try to do this on a Spezcnas, i'm quite sure they do know what to do and instinctively how to react when somone punches their face from behind. For PvP balancing, fighting back should be therefor plausible, but requires you to be fast.

Also underwater a Knifefight is plausible, where both divers wouldn't go for slitting eachothers throats, but rather each others air supply tubes.

[Mac 1]

No, this is a very gamey feature that doesn't belong in a simulator like arma

[keefehb 0]

No we don't need this shite in the arma series.

[Millor 1]

It would be nice, not for any "haha I totally got you" reason, just because I genuinely wish you could kill some one semi stealthily when you sneak up behind them. However, in what most people would call "genuine arma" the scope of the battle would be far to big for any of that and the fighting would rarely ever get the close and personal. Also, if you haven't noticed yet, you pretty much can't sneak in arma unless everyone isn't paying attention and or are currently firing their guns at something, footsteps are loud even in walking crouch. I think most uses of the feature would only be used in mods and such, so really it might just have to be a thing a modder might have to put time into if they feel they need it.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I concur with the OP - there were several opportunities for close range in my experience already.

"Takedown" - perhaps not a lethal one, but some sort of knockout instead if it's possible with the current engine modifications.

[ShadowPryde 10]

If the opportunity for close combat arises then why not. Although such situations are rather rare for most infantry guys, they still happen. Leaving something out that could only occure 1/100 of the time is still like shooting yourself in the foot. A soldier has to be able to utizlize every bit of option to get the best result because even such a small thing like taking someone down silently can still mean the difference between life and death.

[rye1 21]

It's funny how before ARMA 3 Alpha was released numerous polls and feature requests on melee which included subrequests on take-downs were thrown out the spectrum of possibility or reasoning. But asking an informed audience who understand the reasoning a little better from that Alpha experience of "Wow, CQB is awesome!" develops a different result. Though some biases never change, some rightly so without proof of concept.

[Millor 1]

Why stop at knives?

Why not tomahawks for some of that arab street cred.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

War-Ham-Moar!!

Hey just noticed i cant shout...help, im being suppressed!

[metalcraze 290]

It's funny how before ARMA 3 Alpha was released numerous polls and feature requests on melee which included subrequests on take-downs were thrown out the spectrum of possibility or reasoning. But asking an informed audience who understand the reasoning a little better from that Alpha experience of "Wow, CQB is awesome!" develops a different result. Though some biases never change, some rightly so without proof of concept.

I'm sorry - what informed audience? 2013 members coming here from DayZ who have knowledge of CQB only from BF3 & Co (lul knifing someone is totally silent and quick and not messy) and not actual reality?

If you are in CQB and you get in a situation where you managed to run out of bullets for your rifle, pistol and there's nobody covering your back - you are doing something really wrong. But eh - why not just have an (A)wesome button that will insta-knife-wipe dat guy with a big gun?

Edited March 8, 2013 by metalcraze

[rye1 21]

Informed being they've got to play around with it, they're in touch, they've came across the situations which cement some concepts of which if you mentioned around ARMA 2 would be instantly opposed and rejected. I didn't mean knowledge base of the subject matter. Of course influences like animations have greatly improved that relationship and vision of the possibilities. Metalcraze does this: He influences the conversation in a direction of his misinformed belief.

No one here said, and if they did they would be greatly opposed, that the solution is an instant-knife button - that's just unrealistic though not a bad brainstorming starting point. It's a simple concept, when people get to twiddle around with new animations, systems and engine then they come up with new ideas or they bring up old ideas which now become more applicable to the series. Therefore if we come to the conclusions of blade weaponry, melee or take-downs then we have a the base concept. From that we move on. If we said instant-knife button! We'd be opposed, so we skip over that. An instant button is easy to make in comparison, it's a good base for modifications but it's not adhering to the series focus.

You can then broaden the ideas but at the end of the day proof of concept is the visual foundation most need for these kinds of "controversial" topics, being they are either game breakers for some, enhancers for some or worthless to some. I agree though, if I'm in vanilla ARMA and I run out ammunition I'm doing something wrong, or it's a dire situation. Now if I fold jam possibilities on top of that I increase the risk, though it's not currently there it probably will be in ACE and therefore the idea runs parallel. At the same time we have optionality still available without the use of melee or blades, for example if we kneel and reload. Would a combatives transition REALLY save someone in that situation? Who knows and that yet again is a core problem with requests like this.

[metalcraze 290]

No the problem here is that when it comes to damaging the body with a knife + melee is that it's a 2 way game.

Remember how many knife strikes it took to kill Caesar? (the most obvious example) And yet even after all those he was still alive for some time.

Not only that but knife is nowhere near as efficient as a bullet to the head. The enemy will always struggle and make noise and it's impossible to take input from both soldiers in a game without it turning into some silly minigame. Have you ever heard about SWAT knifing its way through bandits? And yet they see a lot more CQB than usual grunts.

Again if you are running out of ammo for both your rifle and your pistol and nobody is covering your back you and your squad must pay the price of you getting shot. Simple as that.

If you are running straight into enemies without bullets that often - you definitely do something wrong.

[NeuroFunker 11]

Informed being they've got to play around with it, they're in touch, they've came across the situations which cement some concepts of which if you mentioned around ARMA 2 would be instantly opposed and rejected. I didn't mean knowledge base of the subject matter. Of course influences like animations have greatly improved that relationship and vision of the possibilities. Metalcraze does this: He influences the conversation in a direction of his misinformed belief.

No one here said, and if they did they would be greatly opposed, that the solution is an instant-knife button - that's just unrealistic though not a bad brainstorming starting point. It's a simple concept, when people get to twiddle around with new animations, systems and engine then they come up with new ideas or they bring up old ideas which now become more applicable to the series. Therefore if we come to the conclusions of blade weaponry, melee or take-downs then we have a the base concept. From that we move on. If we said instant-knife button! We'd be opposed, so we skip over that. An instant button is easy to make in comparison, it's a good base for modifications but it's not adhering to the series focus.

You can then broaden the ideas but at the end of the day proof of concept is the visual foundation most need for these kinds of "controversial" topics, being they are either game breakers for some, enhancers for some or worthless to some. I agree though, if I'm in vanilla ARMA and I run out ammunition I'm doing something wrong, or it's a dire situation. Now if I fold jam possibilities on top of that I increase the risk, though it's not currently there it probably will be in ACE and therefore the idea runs parallel. At the same time we have optionality still available without the use of melee or blades, for example if we kneel and reload. Would a combatives transition REALLY save someone in that situation? Who knows and that yet again is a core problem with requests like this.

yeah, as i said in my fist post, it shouldn't be like in BF/CoD, but something what fits in arma 3 concept. And thats why we all are here, to discuss things.

[EDcase 87]

I would like some way to incapacitate an enemy SILENTLY. Either permanently or not.

I don't know how it should be done but to those who say "knife is not quick"... You obviously don't know much about combat. When someone is shot, 90% of the time they do not die instantly.

Cutting someones throat does not kill them instantly as they either die of blood loss or drowning but they cannot scream . So they will die quietly on the floor in a few seconds.

So YES, knives are a valid weapon if you do not have a silencer and can get close enough.

The question is if BIS can make an animation for this close interaction...

Edited March 8, 2013 by EDcase

[Nexerius 10]

An alright, fair,balanced takedown would be good. But i REALLY dont think it can be fit in this game. AI is too smart, theyll notice you before youre in a 10m radius.

Players will always look around and search for other players. Its been only a few times on ARMA 3 ive come close to an enemy player. But i shoot them at a little distance, because im afraid theyll turn around and shoot me when im not ready for it.

[rye1 21]

No the problem here is that when it comes to damaging the body with a knife + melee is that it's a 2 way game.

Remember how many knife strikes it took to kill Caesar? (the most obvious example) And yet even after all those he was still alive for some time.

Not only that but knife is nowhere near as efficient as a bullet to the head. The enemy will always struggle and make noise and it's impossible to take input from both soldiers in a game without it turning into some silly minigame. Have you ever heard about SWAT knifing its way through bandits? And yet they see a lot more CQB than usual grunts.

Again if you are running out of ammo for both your rifle and your pistol and nobody is covering your back you and your squad must pay the price of you getting shot. Simple as that.

If you are running straight into enemies without bullets that often - you definitely do something wrong.

Then you go by an average. BIS works on a damage formula. It's not "How many GSW's did X take?" or "Let's study wound ballistics and put it in game!". They just have a damage value, I'd agree with that value being lower than others to prevent the instant kill bullcrap seen in other games. I'd also agree with a mini-game being out of the question for vanilla. ACE on the other hand, maybe so - as you could call the medical side a mini-game too as an example.

Dude, don't say SWAT. LE operate totally differently. On the other hand if you really want to go there then look at German MEK/SEK who carry co-holsters with pistol and fixed blade. POs mainly carry folding for utility. If you're going to relate it to LE you're going off-topic. A warfare scenario goes out of the question. You need opportunity to conduct this kind of work and with opportunity comes the increased knowledge of use. For example Fallujah, Ramadi. For example ARMA 3 over ARMA 2. Three ingredients: Intent, opportunity, ability.

No I don't run out of ammunition that quickly, and I resup whenever I need. But if I did need to, in-front of the enemy, I would pistol transition. Unfortunately right now it's a static event and a bit... slow so I'd end up dead (on the other hand pistol operability is very very good!). If I had the option of a combatives transition, I may take it over the other if I was close enough to run towards the enemy and get close enough; hence why it's usually a room clearance selective way of operating. If I move into the room and conduct a take down, push or punch then that's extra options for a specific aspect of the game. Again. Intent, opportunity, ability.