Black Hornet another small drone heralding the end of Infantry with rifles

[walker 0]

Hi all

According to the troops on the front line:

Black Hornet spycam is a 'lifesaver' for British troops.

13 February 2013 Last updated at 16:36

Sergeant Carl James Boyd demonstrates how the Norwegian-designed Black Hornet Nano will be used for surveillance operations in Afghanistan.

The drones can fly around corners and obstacles to identify potential hidden dangers, the Ministry of Defence has said. It features a tiny camera and relays video and still images to a handheld control terminal.

It measures about 10cm by 2.5cm (4in by 1in) and weighs 16g (0.6oz).

Sergeant Boyd described the piece of kit as a "lifesaver".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21450456

As always follow the link to see the video and for the link to a longer text description of the story

I always consider the soldier front line views as being the best there is on kit but what will the front line soldier be in the future?

So now I guess I had better deal with my usual controversial and thought provoking headline:

Why I think small drones herald the end of Infantry with rifles

Drones are increasingly being armed. The Predator began life as a recon device; much like the Black Hornet. The smallest weaponised drone that has been admited to is the Arctus T20

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1389552/New-Arcturus-T-20-drone-smallest-carry-weapons.html

It is only a matter of time before the Black Hornet or something like it, is give a sting. The payload for a Black Hornet could be a Taser or a knockout injection, or a small explosive enough to blow a hole in your head, or act as a guidance tag to ensure 100% accuracy of a larger lethal payload dropped from the sky by a UCAV. With a swarm of them released by a larger cousins all capable of taking out a single soldier you have a war winning weapon. At that point the Infantry man with a rifle becomes redundant.

The Pentagon and others know this:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/30/business/la-fi-mini-drones-20110531

The Soldier With Rifle in the Field is Obsolete. Of course you also have the perfect assasins weapon. Generals and Presidents and CEOs will never be safe. Perhaps now we might see an end to war.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 13, 2013 by walker

[mrcash2009 0]

Console kiddies of future with "useful thumbs" (Prince Harry special) ... will be lined up for recruitment no doubt.

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to mrcash2009: Who says it needs a human thumb at all?

Drones and Robots are increasingly intelligent and capable. The latest Big Dog has eyes, terrain maping, path finding, leader follow. Others have swarm tech. You have only to consider the AI in ArmA and how good it is getting. Not yet the quality of intelligence of a human but numbers are a quality all of their own and we all know that in a battle against the AI in ArmA some where between 3 to 6 AI are the equal of even the best of us.

I would love to do an experiment with random spawned AI set to Aware and a random Guard zone and see how many AI it takes to guarantee a human player kill in ten runs. Against those who think them selves the elite of ArmA. The metric would be very worth while.

The Drones are taking over war:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/world/20drones.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 13, 2013 by walker

[NoRailgunner 0]

Can those minidrones fly through a storm or heavy rain or operate in the jungle? Yes there are and will be experiments with autonomous systems but most of them are still operated by a human pilot/controller. Just assuming that drones can do now or soon the job of soldiers is a bit of a stretch from those highly creative "military media analysts". Drones are and will be used as tools but won't replace soldiers or make them obsolete. Guess sooner or later there will be something that can counter these tools in one way or another. Keep in mind the "stealth" term was very popular too and many media experts were also very sure about that "stealth" will make all the other non-stealthy things obsolete.... ;)

[hellfire257 3]

Surely you can't be serious? The same was said of massive bomber formations - look how that turned out.

[wld427 1705]

You must have a tin foil hat for every day of the week............

the little helicopter i have can barely fly past a turning ceiling fan let alone outside in the elements.

Drones are only as good as the operator..... and i was not that good. Trust me i crashed plenty of Ravens in Iraq.

[slatts 1978]

Nope.avi

But really, the "end of war". Not a chance, could robots or drones be the end of war as we know it? Maybe, but a group of drone planes or robot tanks etc is still war, it's still fighting. It's human nature to fight and want to kill one another, war will never end.

[jeza 5416]

war will never end.

Unless war ends us...............:292:

[instagoat 133]

Drones cannot "make the call" as good as a human can. There are too many factors involved, at least in an asymmetric war. How does a drone tell between an unmarked civilian and a hostile person?

The real power of drones is battlefield observation and interdiction (human controlled), as well as direct support for ground elements.

The only place where people will likely be replaced is in fighter jets, because there, frankly, humans are simply a nuisance (being too soft and squishy for the job). Infantry will never go away. Drones cannot hold ground, or dynamically react the way an infantry element can. They are support systems and force multipliers.

[Messiah 2]

You get barmier every thread... did you even watch the BBC video you linked? It doesn't herald the end of the infantry soldier, it prevents him leaving the safety of one compound, only to stick his head through another compound's door without an idea of what's behind it. The fact that this miracle drone is thwarted by wind, or, god forbid, a door of all things should have given you pause for thought... for once.

Endoscopes and surveilance didn't herald the end of SWAT/CT teams, it just let them know what was behind the door - this is no different. The idea that this gnat could carry anything remotely leathal is beyond laughable - no drone, uav or child's toy can at this stage or in the near future, fully replace boots on the ground in the thick of things and with the cognative power and reasoning we possess... or most of us at least.

[dm 9]

I think small drones herald the end of Infantry with rifles

Are you secretly VERY old, and were part of the same "think tank" that thought missiles would be the end of fighters with guns (60's), and that missiles would be the end of manned fighters (50's), and that the ATGM would be the end of the MBT (60's), and so on...

Agree completely with Messy, these drones are amazing as extended eyes, but they're too falible right now to be anything other than an intel asset.

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to DM et Al.

Do you think Iran thinks the way you all do? What about China? Or North Korea?

Kind Regards walker

[Messiah 2]

Holy random tangent, Batman

Iran can't even succesfully fake a plastic plane, killer mini drones are a little far fetched. China and North Korea have the world's largest standing armies, so clearly they see the value of soldiers too (a pinch of salt to be taken for their lack of similar technological development at this point in time)

[dysta 10]

But the PLA is shrinking down, Messiah. They're dropped to barely 2 mills while more and more "not-too-advance-but-mass-producible" arsenals ready to replace the collective tactics away. NK on the other hand is still stuck in cold-war era doctrine, so their KPA would be remain in mass quantity.

[krycek 349]

Must say I'm not very impressed with these mini toy drones.Surveillance drones are last friday stuff.True they didn't always came in such a small package but nothing new here.

Time to develop some more armed platforms instead of these rc copters.Reaper/Predator and Talons for ground is way to less.In the domain of mini drones I see the Switchblade more useful although it's quite a bit bigger than Black Hornet.

[Messiah 2]

But the PLA is shrinking down, Messiah. They're dropped to barely 2 mills while more and more "not-too-advance-but-mass-producible" arsenals ready to replace the collective tactics away. NK on the other hand is still stuck in cold-war era doctrine, so their KPA would be remain in mass quantity.

Of course, hence my pinch of salt comment. Future technologies can go a way to easing what would have been a multiple soldier task, so consolidation and efficiency is one thing, doing away with soldiers on the ground due a small plastic helicopter is quite another.

Robotics in the auto industry have made many redundant, yet have never replaced people entirely, the same can be applied in some sense to robotics in the military, although in this case instead of replacing the soldier who would normally of had to risk his neck in checking what was behind the door, you are just replacing the need to do so. Again, quite different things entirely.

[slatts 1978]

With regards to this helicopter replaces us feeble humans in combat, how is it going to open a door?

[ProfTournesol 956]

With regards to this helicopter replaces us feeble humans in combat, how is it going to open a door?

By ringing the bell :756:

[Smurf 12]

With regards to this helicopter replaces us feeble humans in combat, how is it going to open a door?

Rocket and missiles!

[dysta 10]

With regards to this helicopter replaces us feeble humans in combat, how is it going to open a door?

They don't have to open the door, they just shoot right through it.

[spooky lynx 73]

Ehm... What may happen with all that drones when you will face not allahakbars sneaking in the desert but potent enemies who know how to use ECM and will have plenty of it?

[walker 0]

Hi all

ECM is an obvious reply to micro drone technology but it also takes out your tech too.

As to Iran's capability it was good enough to hack the USA's most advanced UAV,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21373353

Even allowing the Iranians to see details of the US Drone Base in Afghanistan:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/02/07/287743/iran-releases-decoded-video-from-us-drone/

so either American Drone developers are stupid or the Iranians have an education system, I think you will find that as it has a higher literacy rate than the Arab world, that the answer is the latter.

By the way for those who can not comprehend that Iran has an educated workforce consider it has Nuclear Power and a rocket system capable of orbital technology and building its own spy satellites and GPS system, its own vehicle and Aircraft manufacturing as well as its own electronics industry, all developed in its War with Iraq when the west was supporting and supplying Sadam while embargoing Iran. As to its Hi Tech threat level I refer you to this 2005 UN Report:

http://unctad.org/en/Docs/iteipc20057_en.pdf

See also:

http://iranprimer.usip.org/resource/irans-ballistic-missile-program

Iran has been arming Drones since the Iran Iraq war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghods_Mohajer

Consider also that Israel says the source for the drone or rocket that took out an Israeli warship was Iran.

http://guardianlv.com/2012/10/israeli-fighter-jet-shoots-down-enemy-drone-but-retaliatory-response-looms/

Iran has been, according to Israel, supplying Palestinians with increasingly complex drone technology. As the Palestinians are a vassal state to Iran in much the way Iraq was a vassal state of the US until Kuwait; and as you supply your vassals with cast off technology, not your latest stuff; it follows that what the Palestinians see is 10 to 20 years behind what Iran has.

Iran is clearly capable with drone technology, is it top of the range high quality technology, probably not. Though we cannot be certain so beware but as I pointed out it does not have to be, quoting Stalin "Numbers have a quality all of their own" ten thousand commercial off the shelf drones would simply overwhelm the defense system of say an aircraft carrier or a company of highly trained Marines or even SEALS with all their expensive technology and training for a fraction of the cost.

More importantly a single drone can as easily kill a President or a General or a CEO in the west, as a Terrorist in Pakistan. A Hundred COTs drones with a shaped Charge Warheads could probably do it as easily as a multi million dollar predator with Hellfires.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 14, 2013 by walker

[slatts 1978]

So large waves of drones going to war instead of soldiers, that's still WAR! Where you got "Perhaps now we might see an end to war" I still don't know.

And ever hear of a little thing called the "arms race"? If X country adapts a plan of mass drone attacks instead of soldiers, Y country will develop counters to that tactic.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Merely thinking of the sorts of the sorts of devastating payloads that could be delivered by Black Hornet makes my blood run cold.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Merely thinking of the sorts of the sorts of devastating payloads that could be delivered by Black Hornet makes my blood run cold.

Titter ye not - you will notice the operator is wearing safety glasses and gloves - that thing must be very dangerous! It can obviosly be used as a kinetic energy weapon - 1 poke in the eye and you are out of the battle.

I have developed a countermeasure which is available at only $1000 per unit.......there were significant development costs.

Big Size Electric (GPS guided) Fly Drone Swatter

Does anyone have any contacts in the Islamic / Democratic Peoples Republics? I think every citizen should be equiped for civic defence.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari