ARMA 2: Community Configuration Project (A2CCP)

[Tonci87 163]

Maybe Tab Locks seems as a crap but this is a tool to simplify communication with your AI gunner. Lets try a simple mission in editor. Put a tank with you as a commander. Put enemy tank around you which will spawn in random location around your tank. Start mission and try to hit enemy tank without Tab. Enemy tank controlled by AI will find you faster and shoot at you. Helicopter guided missiles will be also unusable because you cannot see what your gunner will lock when you tell him to lock target using radio. You will tell him to lock one of the tanks from list by radio but you don't know if you aim the tank you want because you cannot see target highlighted. Manually target selection by right mouse click is hard from helicopter because of lack of yaw maneuver on helicopters.

And that is why I ask for the removal of Tab Lock, but with keeping the visual indicator or including a new one.

BTW, I use ACE, that means I have Tab Lock disabled for a long time and Tank and Helo Missions play JUST FINE! I select targets either by right klick, or by list (Hint: The list includes the relative position of the enemy to your vehicle (12 o'clock; 9 o'clock....) that helps to identify the the target you want to get destroyed)

[On_Sabbatical 11]

This is what happens when experienced and non experienced players are talking about a serious matter ... to be honest guys,you really don't need TAB (that square box) to play this game neither does the AI,you have 2-list and Right click lock so stop crying ... or just go play on cadet -.-

[Vipera 10]

This is what happens when experienced and non experienced players are talking about a serious matter ... to be honest guys,you really don't need TAB (that square box) to play this game neither does the AI,you have 2-list and Right click lock so stop crying ... or just go play on cadet -.-

If you are an experienced player than do not use Tab when it is available, just a joke :) I stop to complain. I would like to try the game with all changes by CCP to decide how it is. Maybe with all CCP changes applied the game will get another look.

[NoRailgunner 0]

You need a precise option to target/select a contact and you need a feedback about the current lock status in default A2OA. The scroll list is not precise enough if there are more enemy vehicles of the same type around or if more enemy vehicles appear from a certain direction. AI isn't able to communicate and act smart like human players so something userfriendly has to be found to command and control AI. Imo A2CCP should bugfix only that stuff what BIS forgot or never intended to touch again eg getting all A2 stuff on OA level. Simple - leave personal preferences and tweaks for addons/mods.

[[frl]myke 14]

Crap or not, I think the question is game changing or bug fixing?

Change game with addons, fix bugs with A2CCP please.

Exactly This^^

:EDIT:

@Qazdar

please deposit your arrogance outside of this forum, thanks.

Edited December 8, 2012 by [FRL]Myke

[Beagle 684]

This is what happens when experienced and non experienced players are talking about a serious matter ... to be honest guys,you really don't need TAB (that square box) to play this game neither does the AI,you have 2-list and Right click lock so stop crying ... or just go play on cadet -.-

The TAB problem got worse with OA thats the point, it would be an IMPROVEMENT to put it back where it was in ArmA II. In OA you can See Radar and use TAB as Commander, Gunner, Driver while your MBT is doing the 160 downhill and fire when airborne after the jumpstart from a rock...and still hit. Im ArmA II TAB in armoured vehicles was resticted to the COMMANDER ONLY and that was fair enough. Basically we are for a long time at the poitn where ArmA II WITHOUT OA is definately the better game for PvP since it has less pure arcade exploits. Another point was that when countermeasures where introduced the hitpoint for Aircraft were not reduced from the A2 values that served the purpose to survive the first Missile hit and the first AAA barrage. Now figting some air, especially airplanes is an annoyance and youre better of to ignore them and walk away...(since you can't even hide in a dense forrest from magic Radar) So the main problem with TAB is in the way it was introduced to every crew position in OA not the TAB itself.

[On_Sabbatical 11]

I am jsut explaining the fact if you really feel the need of having a square that shows you where targets are and can't spend some effort to have visual on target and right click or even too confused to choose a target on your 3 pages 2 list,go change it in your profile or play on servers that have autoguideAT ON

[Vipera 10]

I have a suggestion which will simplify target selection if we remove TAB Lock feature. So, if Lock by Tab is disabled then when I press the Tab key it will automatically select my vehicle main gunner and pop-up list with available targets (as pressed key 2). In this case I do not have to remember and search who my main gunner is. This is a big problem in Warfare games with many AI units in squad when you try to find crew members for choosen vehicle.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Vipera

[Janez 530]

The TAB problem got worse with OA thats the point, it would be an IMPROVEMENT to put it back where it was in ArmA II. In OA you can See Radar and use TAB as Commander, Gunner, Driver while your MBT is doing the 160 downhill and fire when airborne after the jumpstart from a rock...and still hit. Im ArmA II TAB in armoured vehicles was resticted to the COMMANDER ONLY and that was fair enough. Basically we are for a long time at the poitn where ArmA II WITHOUT OA is definately the better game for PvP since it has less pure arcade exploits. Another point was that when countermeasures where introduced the hitpoint for Aircraft were not reduced from the A2 values that served the purpose to survive the first Missile hit and the first AAA barrage. Now figting some air, especially airplanes is an annoyance and youre better of to ignore them and walk away...(since you can't even hide in a dense forrest from magic Radar) So the main problem with TAB is in the way it was introduced to every crew position in OA not the TAB itself.

It was introduced to enhance visual communication between human crew members that were not communicating via TS or similar. Very effective for public gaming.

Radar/minimap in any game is not there to simulate anything. Its there to compensate for lack of situational awareness, vocal or gesture communication, fov, etc. Although, granted, here it can conveniently be "radar".

Maybe server side option should be added but nothing should be removed or restricted.

[Beagle 684]

I made a ticket regarding the unbreakable HMMWV windshields that initially brought me here. Maybe that's fixable at least, its not a gamechanger like TAB Removal in Veteran mode.

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/66995

[On_Sabbatical 11]

You will need some NAVY signed sources for this ...

@Kju

GRAD scope is not anymore working,can you please check it ? i get in gunner seat press 0,and i switch to ironsight ... its not like in RM70 from ACR where i swicth to a scope !!

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/61864

Edited December 8, 2012 by On_Sabbatical

[Beagle 684]

You will need some NAVY signed sources for this ...

I knew that my real life experience in operating, maintaining and later manufacturing of light armoured vehicles do not count here ;)

BIS need to imclude more german made vehicles that would make gettign valid data much easier for me, albeit im still not allowed to share it by a contract I once singned but nobody really gives a sh** about that, im not working for them anymore.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Beagle

[Groove_C 267]

I see here several members expressing their fear about TAB to disappear.

Let me remind you, that ArmA is branded as a millitary simulator and should be played as such.

I agree however that ArmA simulates good enough only infantry ground operations and that armor as well as aircrafts simulation is far from looking realistic for a simulator.

But I think this is the reason why BIS tries now to improve these aspects to further enhance simulation experience and is doing nothing wrong.

I suppose that most of you here never played with heavy armor the way it should be (and probably died and continue dieing all the time).

Some researching about heavy armor tactics using wiki/books would significantly improve your skills and knowledge in order to survive and maybe even to win/take advantage over your enemies.

A tank should idealy be positioned 1.5 - 2.5 km away from the village/city on a hill giving commander and gunner a good field of view turet just surfacing from over the hill and the rest of tank hidden to prevent hits in its thiner armored parts.

No problems to play this way on Cherno or Taki. There are enough such spots even if distance is not this big (varying from village to village and from Cherno to Taki) giving you the visual possibility as commander as well as gunner to search and destroy potentially dagerous targets without approaching the AO till danger persists.

Bear in mind, that in real life, no tanks have the possibility to TAB targets and scroll through them for a simple reason, that no tanks have radars as in ArmA.

The commander has to search for targtes visually and tell the gunner in which direction to turn and which target to fire at.

Same should be in ArmA (even with bots) - NO to not exitent RADARS!

You as commander (bot as gunner) have to visually identify targets and tell your gunner at which one and with which ammo to fire depending on danger considering distance to you or armor class.

Don't ask now how to tell your bot gunner to engage a specific target (without using TAB) or how to tell your bot gunner to switch to a different ammo type depending on target.

Don't froget you have Targets list you may open to choose a high danger target from.

You're welcome to visit our CO PvE server to learn how to use armor or aircrafts.

without magic teleports to HQ

without magic teleport-hallo jumps

without revive

without green crosshair

without radars for tanks

without target list using "2"

Super AI enabled (AI skill 1 = 100%) compared to default BIS server settings with AI skill 0.7 =75%.

And our russian players don't cry because of radars. Commander uses map to look for good spots to tell the driver to drive to and commander also uses mouse button to lock tragets visually found previously and tell the bot gunner to switch to an appropriate ammo type before firing.

To get to different locations we have to walk or use Motorcycle, UAZ, truck or heli.

And no magic! If our chopper is shot down and we have 4 km left to get to AO, we walk instead of pressing "respawn".

So... to conclude - no magic non existant radars on armor and no magic TAB.

If several players are able to play PvE COOP this way considering not childish conditions our mission requires from player, this simply means THIS IS POSSIBLE.

It only requires from you to pay attention and to concetrate in your head as well as your eyes looking through commander scope to identify possible targets. So simple, so realistic.

If you want to play ArmA almost laying on your chair with you cup of coffee and muffin, there are several other games with plenty of ultra arcade (non existant) options like BF or CoD.

But, please, don't prevent BIS from developing ArmA in the more sim direction.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Groove_C

[Janez 530]

@Groove_C

First, lol @Arma being a military simulator. Second, I always though that you can play the game how you want it. Not ultra "realistic" or play CoD. There are options and everyone set it to their likings.

Its not matter of being a noob or not and playing how one thinks it should be played or not but a matter of options being available.

And since you run that kind of server, there is no issue, is there.

[Groove_C 267]

@Groove_C

And since you run that kind of server, there is no issue, is there.

There is an important issue.

We have to use addons/mods to disable radars and to enable switch from optics to iron sights for close combat since green crosshair serverside disabled and no zeroing for most vehicles and weapons making several tanks firing @ 600m and sniper rifles @ 300m forcing player to fire almost in the sky to reach the target beyond these strange ranges. Because tanks in real life can fire at more than 3 km and 7.62 rifles and 12,7 sniper rifles difinetly more than at 300 m.

Using addons/mods prevents to connect casual players (being instantly kicked) not registered on our forum to know what and where to download in order to connect to the server. Resulting in low online.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Groove_C

[fraczek 4]

I think I am not reading you correctly, Groove_C. The crosshairs is a server difficulty toggle, you don't need any mods to disable it? Zeroing, which, IMO, would greatly benefit from CCP, as most rifles don't have it in A2 while even the ironsighted AK47 and Sa Vz.58 have in real life (which has been corrected in OA, and I am sure there is a ticket for A2 weapons ironsight zeroing in CCP).

Again, you would like to impose your way of playing on everybody, if taken to extreme, akin to ACE becoming default (which I might actually like, so there would be more ACE servers to play on :)

And I am getting tired of the arguments and ad-hominem attacks along the lines of "you don't like it, go play CoD". I play with ACE mostly, I can enjoy a good COOP tank battle with the crew yelling target bearings at each other like you, I have crosshairs off in every SP game I play (and prefer MP the same), usually with ASR_AI and TPWC_LOS, yet I still see a place for more casual play.

The problem I have with TAB lock being tied to AutoguideAT setting, is that it makes the game either Veteran or Easy, nothing inbetween. You don't want magical SACLOS missiles that behave like F&F? Too bad, now you loose modern tank FCS and improved ability to communicate with your subordinate AI.

[Groove_C 267]

I think I am not reading you correctly, Groove_C. The crosshairs is a server difficulty toggle, you don't need any mods to disable it?

Yes, serverside. But without green crosshair rifles with optics become useless in close combat.

I am sure there is a ticket for A2 weapons ironsight zeroing in CCP).

Yes, there is one and more over I will give .kju our mod with iron sights switch from optics and zeroing for all vehicles and weapons that should have them like in real life.

So we will maybe see so of these features comming in 1.63 if approved and added.

Again, you would like to impose your way of playing on everybody

With non existant radars on tanks or magic TAB? Those do not belong to a milsim. I know it's not VBS, but not BF or CoD either.

You don't want magical SACLOS missiles that behave like F&F?

F&F missiles like Javelin or NLAW will remain. This will only apply for those not intended to function these way like Metis-M (manually guided using wire max 1.5 km long maintaining crosshair on target till hit) and so on.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Groove_C

[andersson 285]

I really think that A2CCP should not change designs that BIS implemented. Let it be for bug fixing. Changing design is a potential pandoras box, who know what will happen if we changes things like that. One thing that -=seany=- pointed out was that it ruin auto range/FCS on vehicles that should have them in RL. Imagine what will happen when the next official patch is released and people start complaining to BIS that the FCS is broken..

I do understand the need and wish to disable TAB. I personally play without autolock since ever, both in SP and MP. I also understand the need to have a good MP experience without addons (or to many) as handling them is an extra step for many people (yes, even though there are excellent software and support for it).

My point is, please let BIS change it. If they dont want to its probably a very good reason why. We cant just think of what "we" want, but what is best for ALL people playing this game. Remember that a lot of players are not part of this community, or a community at all, and we dont know what they prefer.

I fully agree to the change, its the best solution we can do right now. I just dont think that A2CCP is the right way to do it. A2CCP should only be there to fix bugs and to tweak without affecting the game play in any way.

[fraczek 4]

Groove_C, just to clarify, SACLOS is not F&F. Only manportable F&F missile ingame is the Javelin & NLAW. All others are either unguided or operator guided - SACLOS (like you mentioned Metis) or MCLOS. That's a difference. So perhaps you misunderstood me (or I misunderstood you :).

The best way would be to add another difficulty setting like AutoGuideAT, something like EnableVehicleRadar, which would be enforced by the server. Everybody would be happy. Although I don't know if this requires some engine changes or not....Kju, is that possible?

BTW, good job with the A2 weapons zeroing and back-up iron sights (I assume you mean the backup sights on Dragunov/PSO-1/... optics equipped rifles, right?). This is something I will definitely enjoy in CCP.

[Beagle 684]

I stil think a "middle way" here regarding magic radar would be to rest it to the way it was in A2, only Commanders have acess to the radar tab, this prevents the exploit of driving an gunning at the same time by simply tab, fire, tab, fire and let AI do the tracking and targeting hitting targets that are not even rendered.

Another problem that maks Tanks less effective in ArmA is the fact that using magic radar and tab allows to target units behind smoke screens. Modern smoke screens shield from IR seekers, laser designators and due to metallic compounds even distort radar waves. Unfortunately smoke has no such effect at all in ArmA, you can simply TAB through.

Here is the US patent from 1997

The more you dive into this materia the more you see what bad design decission the whole Magic radar tab targeting is. It makes PvP absolutely futile in any tactical realim manner and is what usually destroys aby Warfare pvp match (you see 50% of players quitting at this point usually when tab war begins)

Edited December 9, 2012 by Beagle

[Guess Who 10]

I stil think a "middle way" here regarding magic radar would be to rest it to the way it was in A2, only Commanders have acess to the radar tab, this prevents the exploit of driving an gunning at the same time by simply tab, fire, tab, fire and let AI do the tracking and targeting hitting targets that are not even rendered.

Another problem that maks Tanks less effective in ArmA is the fact that using magic radar and tab allows to target units behind smoke screens. Modern smoke screens shield from IR seekers, laser designators and due to metallic compounds even distort radar waves. Unfortunately smoke has no such effect at all in ArmA, you can simply TAB through.

Here is the US patent from 1997

The more you dive into this materia the more you see what bad design decission the whole Magic radar tab targeting is. It makes PvP absolutely futile in any tactical realim manner and is what usually destroys aby Warfare pvp match (you see 50% of players quitting at this point usually when tab war begins)

I think you're right. Disabeling "Awareness display" and TAB for tank/IFV drivers should do. But you can't disable it for gunners, because that would render the FCS useless.

You cannot only tab lock targets behind a smoke screen but also targets beyond rendering range ...

[.kju 3244]

Please check: CCP: 2012-12-09 Test version release

[Beagle 684]

I think you're right. Disabeling "Awareness display" and TAB for tank/IFV drivers should do. But you can't disable it for gunners, because that would render the FCS useless.

You cannot only tab lock targets behind a smoke screen but also targets beyond rendering range ...

Thats not true. Gunner had no radar and hence no Tab in A2...you just have to click on the target and voila...FCS. You havet to SEE the target, that's the whole trick. The FCS is not dependent on Radar or TAB...otherweise the T55 would not work because for some reason TAB is disabled in T55 since OA was released.

[Guess Who 10]

Thats not true. Gunner had no radar and hence no Tab in A2...you just have to click on the target and voila...FCS. You havet to SEE the target, that's the whole trick. The FCS is not dependent on Radar or TAB...otherweise the T55 would not work because for some reason TAB is disabled in T55 since OA was released.

Sorry, Arma 2 was a long time ago, didn't remember ... :confused:

[fraczek 4]

Beagle has some good thoughts on that, I even liked the old A2 radar more (it used to be not a circle but just a line depicting your fov and some units around it, right? Or is it too long I played vanilla A2 to remember :)?). As long as right clicking on target under reticles works even with autoguideat off, that would be great.