Terrain Underground complexes?

[NKato 0]

My advice to BIS is to consider completely rebuilding the AI code if they have to. In the long run (10+ years from now) it will be more beneficial to the company since they'll have a documentation policy in place at this time.

Without that documentation, you may as well be staring into Pandora's Box.

P.S. I don't see why they can't just, you know, rip out the old AI and replace it with xAItment like they did with VBS2. It can't be that expensive, can it?

Edited October 25, 2012 by NKato

[chortles 263]

P.S. I don't see why they can't just, you know, rip out the old AI and replace it with xAItment like they did with VBS2. It can't be that expensive, can it?

Yes, it can be, in both money and time -- they've already been delayed a bunch of times, this post by Jay Crowe suggests that even before Gamescom the devs were wary of making "major" changes to the AI, much less scrapping the whole thing, and of course the ARMA 3 devs are not the VBS2 devs. InstaGoat's got an interesting perspective on "is it worth it to try and scrap the whole AI?" question here, with particularly important points boldfaced by me:

It goes to show that, no matter how many things the AI can already do, there´s still a ton of things that could (maybe should) be added to make it more complete. However, sometimes I am even beginning to think that what Arma 3 needs isn´t a revamp or expanded OFP-developed AI, but rather a completely new gen AI system, built from the ground up to deal with the highly complex battlefield they are faced with in A3.

In OFP, barely any buildings were enterable, there wasn´t a lot of clutter to take cover behind, weapons systems weren´t as complex and spotting systems weren´t either, there weren´t as many layers to combat as there are now, and of course the requirements and expectations of the customer have changed. Games like FEAR have redefined what people expect of a game AI, and Arma 2, despite the advances, still falls short rather often. Most AI mods do not really fix this either, but move the problems around to where they are more satisfying to the people that use those mods (such as me.).

However, building an AI from the ground up to the complexity we are currently having with Arma 2/Arma 3 AI would likely be a humongous, time and labour intensive task. It would also be very risky, because if it doesn´t turn out to be noticeably better/more capable, in the end it will be a waste to do.

As far as economy goes, fixing up the existing AI is a good move, because BI obviously doesn´t have the personell and cash reserves of companies like Blizzard, however ultimately it will leave the community with an AI that will still have the fundamental shortcomings the AI had ever since OFP. Dodgy use of cover, friendly fire issues, performance problems, pathfinding problems especially in vehicles, disabillity to use inventory/gather equipment on their own, and of course no intelligent use of buildings for tactical advantage. I don´t know, though, maybe they have an ace up their sleeve they´ve not told us about yet. One can dream.

Emphasis on those two points -- how do you judge whether the extent of AI improvement is "noticeable" when the existing player base is already inclined to simply apply addons to tweak the game to their personal tastes?

[iceman77 18]

Hey all,

I've JUST started the process for a new island, and want it to basically be more for the ARMA3 engine than ARMA2- it'l take sometime anyway!

What I am wondering though, and hope someone can give a pretty solid answer, is will ARMA 3 provide us modders with a really good way to create and integrate small/large underground areas..?

I mean even organic (caves) and structured ones like bunkers/silos etc..?

Any info is appreciated chaps,

Marc

Would be cool for some pure pvp maps. not every map has to be Ai friendly =P

[Robbeh 1]

Exactly, with the recent release and popularity of DayZ it is likely that a lot more PvP oriented players are going to give ArmA 3 a go so these maps should not be entirely discounted.

[Black Cat 10]

Remember, when you are swimming under a rock arch in the water in A3, such as in the E3 demo, you are *technically* underground, as other AI/players can swim above the rock arch no problem, so underground structures could be viable using that idea

[Smurf 12]

But that is just and object placed on the seafloor, nothing fancy about it.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Remember, when you are swimming under a rock arch in the water in A3, such as in the E3 demo, you are *technically* underground, as other AI/players can swim above the rock arch no problem, so underground structures could be viable using that idea

When i am in a building with a roof over my head i am not underground, am i? ;)

The 'Make a huge object that looks like its ground on top and put it in a hole in the terrain' idea has been about for a while, but it isnt very practical, and considering AI navigation in buildings it isnt very AI friendly either.

[wipman 1]

Hi, the AI inside buildings has always been dumb until date; they don't even detect walls and much less objects such as tables, chairs etc.. . Sometimes the AIs just passed through walls like ghosts, without collisions; the AIs also seemed to ignore any building like structure... they'd seemed to see through walls and hear too, this from inside the buildings...!, sometimes the AI is capable of see/detect you from the other side of the building, but i think that this is because those building models, that probably didn't had something neccessary on their model's LODs.

The underground structures could be viable for human players only if they're placed on places and in a way where they don't give a too strong advantage for the users of this structures, but then we step again with the AI... they still gonna be capable of see and hear?, not just through this structures... but through the ground/land that they should have above?, because then they'll be other of things to aboid in a/the game unless in certain PvP game modes as in example some F CTF or some pointless C&H. In any case... i don't think that improve the BIS AI be an easy task no matter what. The underground structures will be pimp. Let's C ya

[giorgygr 61]

The underground structures could be viable for human players only if they're placed on places and in a way where they don't give a too strong advantage for the users of this structures

That's why human used it's mind (old dirty tricks and lately some cool military trinkets) to overcome REAL situations like those (*and without respawn if you getting my point).

I don't see reason why a simulation game should make things easy for player (i.e. Having a strong point with more then ONE exits so the average player doesn't whining)

*I REALLY don't like the "average" player btw :D

[metalcraze 290]

Hi, the AI inside buildings has always been dumb until date; they don't even detect walls and much less objects such as tables, chairs etc.. . Sometimes the AIs just passed through walls like ghosts, without collisions; the AIs also seemed to ignore any building like structure... they'd seemed to see through walls and hear too, this from inside the buildings...!, sometimes the AI is capable of see/detect you from the other side of the building, but i think that this is because those building models, that probably didn't had something neccessary on their model's LODs.

This is false.

The only walls they "walked through" were fences with the hole underneath which was fixed a long time ago.

As for them "seeing through buildings / walls". They don't see - but they hear. And why shouldn't they? Any human can but AI shouldn't?

Edited November 9, 2012 by metalcraze

[On_Sabbatical 11]

This is false.

As for them "seeing through buildings / walls". They don't see - but they hear. And why shouldn't they? Any human can but AI shouldn't?

Not that correct ! unless you're using a specific sound mod !

I have always failed at hearing AIs footsteps beyond 10 m,while AI can hear you and shoot you through wooden fences exactly even when the area is full of moving tanks creating noise all around !

We need a AI/environnement interaction in the game to make them more realistic !

[metalcraze 290]

They don't hear you moving well from 10m bro

Unless you are running of course.

And there is sound occlusion for AI just like it is for the player, except - yes for noise sources.

If you will have a building in between you and AI he won't hear you until you will approach him from such direction that building will stop blocking the sound.

Just try it at Utes. Put yourself and AI on a landing strip and walk slowly to him. He will hear you within 8m or so.

Then put AI behind a building and yourself on the other side. To make it a pure hearing test just turn AI away from the corner you will come at him from.

AI will turn to you only when you will start coming from behind that corner. Yes even if you are 4m away but around the corner AI won't hear you.

And if you are crawling on the ground you can approach AI point blank without him noticing it (only turning sligtly like he heard something) - which kinda says his hearing is in fact not good enough.

I'm talking vanilla AI, no mods.

As a bonus you can make AI go around the building himself while you are facing away from the corner he will come from - you WILL hear him running.

You can then make him walk instead - and surprise surprise. You will hear him only from 4m away as he will be near that corner.

Edited November 9, 2012 by metalcraze

[BetuUuUu 1]

the problem on ArmA is that when you enter ina city every soldier that you control uses wood boots;

they walk making so much noise, you cant stealth on underground/inside buildings like that

[metalcraze 290]

That's because it's not hollywood stealth.

Obviously a squad with all its gear will be really noisy.

[wipman 1]

Hi, i'd seen many times the AI coming out from enterable houses walls aswell walking through vehicles, on the ArmA2; without mods or units replacements, just the vanilla game and units. I guess that's because some defect on the building model, that it had some hole on some LOD or something. Let's C ya

[pathetic_berserker 4]

Hi, i'd seen many times the AI coming out from enterable houses walls aswell walking through vehicles, on the ArmA2; without mods or units replacements, just the vanilla game and units. I guess that's because some defect on the building model, that it had some hole on some LOD or something. Let's C ya

I think its actually the way the game culls calculations to operate more efficiently, it is supposed de-prioritise walls and a few other things while AI is roaming far from view.

What is wrong here is the computor isn't recognising your proximity or view range and your seeing it.

[-Coulum- 35]

I think its actually the way the game culls calculations to operate more efficiently, it is supposed de-prioritise walls and a few other things while AI is roaming far from view.

What is wrong here is the computor isn't recognising your proximity or view range and your seeing it.

I have seen this thing too and I agree that it seems to be a method the game uses to increase performance. I find it happens more often when in low FPS situations but I have seen it other times as well - very hard to reproduce consistently. Can be really annoying when you trying to chase a guys down and he just vanishes through the wall.

[hardcode 0]

I am looking for something similar to this. I am building a terrain that includes a huge mountain and I want to make a road tunnel straight through the mountain to allow a less steeper curve to get to the top. How should I go about doing this?

 

Real-life example: http://www.fix.net/wreil/Gran-Sasso-Mountain-Tunnel.jpg

[opteryx 1562]

I am looking for something similar to this. I am building a terrain that includes a huge mountain and I want to make a road tunnel straight through the mountain to allow a less steeper curve to get to the top. How should I go about doing this?

 

Real-life example: http://www.fix.net/wreil/Gran-Sasso-Mountain-Tunnel.jpg

You can't unless the mountain is a separate 3d model.

[Mirek 166]

In Arma2Co i tried to make "Underground" Structure by placing buildings and then cover it all(except the entrance with rocks and boulders. It looked nice. Problem was that AI completely ignores any editor placed buildings. So, wehnever i got spotted, all the AI from entire area came rushing trough wals and rocks.

[opec666 22]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbcxJI19Ndw

 

I made some totally-enclosed caves (100m^2 sections) for my Dungeons gimmick. Then I integrated it with a Dynamic-TvT mission on Altis so that the attacking team could burrow underground to approach the AO unseen. I think we played it once. Heh.

 

http://www.mediafire.com/download/61alzqa59sht14q/TvT40-Dynamic-Attack-Defend-Dungeons-v0-0-4.Altis.pbo

[TexPoly 0]

You can't unless the mountain is a separate 3d model.

 

The 3D model could come from Blender or 3DsMax?  I am wondering because I am familiar somewhat with Blender, and use AutoCAD LT or Tinkercad for my floorplans.

[Deadmen the Judge 10]

So, its early 2016, something changed? Was there any patch that releases underground structures UNDER the terrain? Because objects just over the terrain are not so nice. Would it be able like in VBS2, you can just take already existing maps like altis and do it like placing a tree.... :)

[inlesco 233]

So, its early 2016, something changed? Was there any patch that releases underground structures UNDER the terrain? Because objects just over the terrain are not so nice. Would it be able like in VBS2, you can just take already existing maps like altis and do it like placing a tree.... :)

Nothing's changed. Underground locations require a major overhaul of terrain tech, perhaps it'll come first to DayZ SA as it gets the Enfusion engine applied.

 

Later on, all of the best features will transit to Arma. Maybe... Arma 4 will be on Enfusion.

[Deadmen the Judge 10]

Mhh thanks men, but it will take a long time for me until i will play DayZ SA again xD