Steam discussion

[bloodtank 1]

I just lost all ARMA and software as I will not agree to Steams new agreement. I will stand here and say goodbye to Steam forever.

No company will tell me what I can do based on force. I seen Steams coming problems some time ago, when they threatened to close my account of 300 games for attempting to charge back a game that DID NOT and WOULD NOT work on my computer, for the mere reason the game timer said I played for 9 hours...(in short, i left the error window up and went to sleep, did not realize I was being spied on by a pathetic clock that is obviously only used to deny refunds) Even though it could be proven I never played, as it was UBISOFTS Silent Hunter 5, which was online always only allowed and games saved on their end.. Obviously they could see I had ZERO saved games and NO ACCESS... It was only a 5000 post forum thread that made Steam cave in and refund me and move forward, as I warned others how easy it is to lose your entire LIBRARY of games and how Steam uses your library as a threat and leverage against you.

Today, I lose access to 500 games.. (no worry those 200 games, were bought on XMAS sales or gifts or f2p) and no more than $5 each :D

But I lost all games including Arma Cold War, Arma Gold, Arma 2, Arma 2 Operation Arrowhead, Private Military Corps, Arma British Forces, Take on Helicopters, TOH: Hind DLC and more...

I'm a bit upset but I am comfortable in my position to move forward away from supporting a licensing system that needs freedom, and I do stand up and applaud the court that awarded the EU people to sell their games, digitally downloaded or not... Moving forward this will be a great success and end to the publishers that are just out there to steal steal and steal. Its been a long time, I have noticed the exploiting of non tangible goods and its time to realize some of them need to be considered tangible.

Anyhow I'll stop rambling.

Just want to say, I will be gone until Arma 3 comes out, BI better have copies on store shelves in the USA on day 1 ;)

I will be unplugging my Arma 2 OA server as no sense paying the bandwidth bill if I can't play..... Sorry, im not rich...

See ya in Arma 3, unhandcuffed!

[Tonci87 163]

Just ozt of curiosity, why did they ban your account?

[bloodtank 1]

Not banned, I refuse to agree to the new Steam Policy. If you don't agree to it. You cant use it, therefore you lose access to all your game library that is on or uses Steam.

[.kju 3244]

what did they change? you may be able to go to court (with the helper of consumer protection agency) (if you live in the EU)

[dm 9]

what did they change?

Specifically they licensing rules:

A. License Terms.

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Software onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license and right to use the Software for your personal use in accordance with this Agreement, including the Subscription Terms. The Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Software. To make use of the Software, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

Since the recent EU ruling that when you buy software, you own that particular copy and are free to do pretty much whatever you want with it, Valve have changed the wording in their Agreement in order to try and circumvent it. (Tho we'll see how well that holds up if it ever comes up against the same judge).

I'm not sure if this is why bloodtank stopped using the service, but its been the main point of contention for most people.

Edit:

I don't remember when this was added in, but they also now state (their use of OMG ALL CAPS)

YOU AND VALVE AGREE TO RESOLVE ALL DISPUTES AND CLAIMS BETWEEN US IN INDIVIDUAL BINDING ARBITRATION. THAT INCLUDES, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, ANY CLAIMS ARISING OUT OF OR RELATING TO: (i) ANY ASPECT OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US; (ii) THIS AGREEMENT; OR (iii) YOUR USE OF STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT OR THE SOFTWARE. IT APPLIES REGARDLESS OF WHETHER SUCH CLAIMS ARE BASED IN CONTRACT, TORT, STATUTE, FRAUD, UNFAIR COMPETITION, MISREPRESENTATION OR ANY OTHER LEGAL THEORY.

Meaning no class action lawsuits are possible now either.

Edited August 6, 2012 by DM

[Tonci87 163]

That is illegal by EU law and therefore meaningless for all EU citizens,no matter if they agree to it or not.

[jacknorrisuk 146]

Man, this is crazy stuff.

Personally I can't stand Steam. Now I'm extra glad I don't use it at all.

Physical copies are nice, and they look good on your shelf.

[Skull132 1]

I wonder if the EU court will have anything to say about this. Then again, I'm not sure if they can say anything about it :/

[Janez 530]

Man, this is crazy stuff.

Personally I can't stand Steam. Now I'm extra glad I don't use it at all.

Physical copies are nice, and they look good on your shelf.

Except that some games demand you to have Steam even if you buy physical copy.

[jacknorrisuk 146]

Except that some games demand you to have Steam even if you buy physical copy.

True dat.

My enjoyment of Skyrim was easily halved by this painful situation.

Hell, I'm just gonna get the Mega Drive out again.

[W0lle 1050]

One more good reason not to use Steam. Reading this I'm really glad I dropped that thing for good.

[Tankbuster 1744]

One more good reason not to use Steam. Reading this I'm really glad I dropped that thing for good.

You speak the truth. I'm surprised this thread has taken so long to appear. On the digital distribution vs dvd-in-a-box spectrum, Steam is so off the scale it's scary. I'd be sick if a library of software as big as the OPs went away like this.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Sadly sometimes you cannot avoid Steam (TW for example).

[GRS 10]

I absolutely hate steam. But the sale deals are too good to pass sometimes. Otherwise I would never use it. I buy a physical copy of any games that I REALLY like anyways.

As for not actually owning the software. I'm pretty sure the same applies to discs or any software at all, you just have authorization to use it. Doesn't mean you own it just because you have a physical object containing it.

Edited August 6, 2012 by GRS

[Tonci87 163]

@Mod Please rename thred to "new steam Eula" or smth. like that

[Sniperwolf572 758]

@Mod Please rename thred to "new steam Eula" or smth. like that

Good idea, I thought it was going to be one of the "DayZ is ruining ArmA" threads initially. :)

[MrBump 10]

I absolutely hate steam. But the sale deals are too good to pass sometimes. Otherwise I would never use it. I buy a physical copy of any games that I REALLY like anyways.

As for not actually owning the software. I'm pretty sure the same applies to discs or any software at all, you just have authorization to use it. Doesn't mean you own it just because you have a physical object containing it.

Yep, the exact same wording is in the ARMA EULAs, The Program is licensed not sold, etc. Frankly I don't see what's changed with the new Steam EULA? I don't care about class action lawsuits, not being American or a lawyer.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Yep, the exact same wording is in the ARMA EULAs, The Program is licensed not sold, etc. Frankly I don't see what's changed with the new Steam EULA? I don't care about class action lawsuits, not being American or a lawyer.

It's as simple as people not understanding to what they agree to in all the EULA's they accept. Valve clarified that now, and some people are whining about it, even tho for years it was a known fact. Like you, I don't care about the "you can't do class action lawsuits". Valve's given reasoning for it being good or bad, I've no clue.

The OP bought a game that he couldn't play, he accidentally left Uplay or something like that open, which signaled to Steam that the game was running in some way. OP chargebacked and was confronted for it.

Why is OP not blaming Ubi for making such a stupid launcher? Asking for a refund from them? I'm sure a grocery store wouldn't accept your corn flakes back if you opened them and left them sitting around on the couch and the dog ate some of it. Sure, you didn't eat them.

There are great many things that you could genuinely complain about Steam and be 100% in right.

Fidgety offline mode? Inability to easily install your game on other drives? Unreasonable prices in my region because I'm in Europe and automatically assumed to be in the EU/€ zone? Tons of other things. There's also the he-said-she-said issues with Steam which I read on these forums daily, which couldn't be further from truth. And many people take that for granted, some of the posters to this thread aswell.

But one thing that makes Steam king, compared to all other solutions is the quality of service, competitive prices and support it offers. And that's one thing that the customers will always appreciate and come back for. Not many businesses understand that unfortunately.

Additionally, given OP's rage at the fact he couldn't get one game refunded, I highly doubt he'd give up on his entire library (estimated $5000 according to him) for long.

[Smurf 12]

Thank you for some much need sense in another "Steam hate" thread Sniperwolf.

[bloodtank 1]

It's as simple as people not understanding to what they agree to in all the EULA's they accept. Valve clarified that now, and some people are whining about it, even tho for years it was a known fact. Like you, I don't care about the "you can't do class action lawsuits". Valve's given reasoning for it being good or bad, I've no clue.

The OP bought a game that he couldn't play, he accidentally left Uplay or something like that open, which signaled to Steam that the game was running in some way. OP chargebacked and was confronted for it.

Why is OP not blaming Ubi for making such a stupid launcher? Asking for a refund from them? I'm sure a grocery store wouldn't accept your corn flakes back if you opened them and left them sitting around on the couch and the dog ate some of it. Sure, you didn't eat them.

There are great many things that you could genuinely complain about Steam and be 100% in right.

Fidgety offline mode? Inability to easily install your game on other drives? Unreasonable prices in my region because I'm in Europe and automatically assumed to be in the EU/€ zone? Tons of other things. There's also the he-said-she-said issues with Steam which I read on these forums daily, which couldn't be further from truth. And many people take that for granted, some of the posters to this thread aswell.

But one thing that makes Steam king, compared to all other solutions is the quality of service, competitive prices and support it offers. And that's one thing that the customers will always appreciate and come back for. Not many businesses understand that unfortunately.

Additionally, given OP's rage at the fact he couldn't get one game refunded, I highly doubt he'd give up on his entire library (estimated $5000 according to him) for long.

See, I don't understand people like you at all... You sit here and try to give away YOUR CONSUMER RIGHTS on

some sort of merit based issue that you don't even debate well?

First of all, I could open a box of corn flakes, and take it back to the store without even a whimper from the clerk.

2ndly that box of corn flakes has a guarantee from the MFR, they will take it back as well.

3rdly, it does not matter. You have consumer laws from your state or domain, and you have consumer laws

via your banking system, yes you have protection from using your credit card, against any purchase, read the pamphlet they give you..

If you pay for something and it does not work, or if you just don't want it.. sadly to say, here in my State, i have 30 days protection via my credit card policy. This trumps all policies, stated by the store. They accepted the credit card, they accepted the credit card terms from that system..... So, either way you want to debate it, Its not on me, its on the store :D See how it works now... Why would you want to give up your rights over something like this kinda irks me, I just don't understand why? Because of some reason you think I am cheating the system? I didn't end up with a 5000 reply posted thread because I was a gamer who wanted a refund 29 days after playing it... But you know what, I have the same rights and could have gotten it :D

Why do I not blame UBI? Because UBI did not handle the transaction. Steam does, thats where you get refunds when things don't work. I do blame UBI and I have banned UBI in my household and never looked back since... Hows that for bitterness?

I never charged anything back, I asked for a refund and got Steam Abuse Net.... With a bunch of messages on threats and action of them closing my account. So I went to the forums and kicked the shit out of Steams threats... :D

This is nonsense, if you want a refund for something, you use your consumer rights.. End of story, there's nothing morally conscious about it... If policies were 100% legal, there'd be no lawyers.

---------- Post added at 20:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:44 ----------

Here's something more interesting... Since I quit Steam, I have about, oh 90 games installed on my drive from Steam....

I want to remove this stuff from my computer.. I go to UNINSTALL, and the UNINSTALL process launches Steam and asks me to login, but I can't login, because I disagree to the terms...

This is an interesting issue... The software can refuse to not deinstall because of agreement policy? Yes, I can somewhat trash the files, but what about my registry? I have to hand edit it and know what I'm looking for? Is this good idea for consumers?

Please comment... :d

[MrBump 10]

I don't get what any of this has to do with not accepting the new EULA? You lost your consumer rights long ago when you first joined Steam, the only thing you're losing now is hundreds of games??

[Macser_old 0]

As for not actually owning the software. I'm pretty sure the same applies to discs or any software at all, you just have authorization to use it. Doesn't mean you own it just because you have a physical object containing it.

This is the problem in a nutshell.The situation has always been misleading.Why has there always been a different standard for media than a physical product?Why do you not own the particular copy you paid for?In the same way I own a guitar,for instance.

It may have a recognisable brand and distinctive design.But I didn't buy the designs or the right to manufacture it.

I own that particular copy though.I will do as I please with it.I will sell it on if I so wish.I will not inform the manufacturer or the retailer that I'm about to do so.I did not rent it.I bought it.If someone attempts to prevent me from gaining access to it they're in for some trouble.Either legally,or if I can get my hands on them,from my boot.

This should be law.And it should apply to any product you buy.

In essence isn't Steam and anyone else selling licenses,in actual fact renting them?If you do not own the copy in your hand,or on your HD,then you are renting it.In practical terms this is the case.Fair enough.

Where there is no legislation to govern the matter,that should be stated clearly,in any and all advertising and price listings.

[bloodtank 1]

See the problem goes beyond the "nature" of the license. This is where principal steps in and we must make a stand. It's no longer renting the license.. This 3rd party service, things it can DICTATE your license and CONTROL your license, when in fact they did not WRITE or OWN the license.

So basically you are buying a license, but you are not, you are renting the license BOUGHT by Steam. Who not only can terminate that license, they use it as leverage against your entire library when needed. Steam owns your bookshelf... Simple as that.... And the more you own, the stronger they get when problems arise... Which is why its time to part ways. it's no longer a worthwhile trade off for convenience.

A lot of you EU guys don't really see the picture yet... See Steam is afraid of something here... You think you are unaffected, because you have the right to resell your license... That's where you are fooled. See, Steam don't care about that... You are still a Steam Subscriber, with a license with them... If they decide they don't like you selling the licenses.. Bloop you are banned... So what you say? just sue them. Well guess what, you already agreed to not be able to sue them via class action lawsuit... This means, you have to sue them yourself for access back to your library.. How much time and money are you personally going to spend to do this? See, IMO they are protecting themselves from a group of you ganging up on them, and forcing you into your own pockets, for when things change down the road and they get cocky. You already agreed to sue them on their home court. In their land. Are you going to fly there, pay a team a lawyers to fight why the suspended your account in small claims court? And fly back every time they delay... They will take gamble that all day long. Because the answer is you are not going to do anything except hate them.

I just feel we need open license system now with anything digital... Shouldnt matter if you buy your content license on itunes, amazon, Steam or GameFly, you should be able to use that license as fit... Steam wants to deny you the download later on, fine, if its a steam game, fine, but any license other than that.. should not be in control of a 3rd party...

Its time for a change.

Im kind of glad I wrote this.. I think I am stupid for not agreeing to the license. I think I will now log in and play game games, but I am 100% sure I am never buying another Steam game or any digital game again, that is not some sort of OPEN LICENSE system where I can use my software without the need of a 3rd party service.

[MrBump 10]

There are two issues at play here, copyright (the buying of a license) and DRM. Now everyone knows that copyright has swung way too far in favour of rights holders, but this isn't just a Steam thing, this is the same for every software publisher. The courts are still working out what's what with copyright use and licenses, there have been a number of high profile cases involving Autocad and Blizzard, but the verdict is still up in the air. If you're making a stand against this then I suggest don't buy Arma 3, or most software today until it's figured out, or go with open source stuff. As for DRM, well there's always GoG, or just not using Steam in the first place.

[rangerpl 13]

The only reason people are whining now is because they actually read the EULA and realized that Valve is a business trying to make a profit, not God's gift to gamers.