Arma2 pvp - Did this game change into a RolePlayingGame & PvE Game ?

[-=seany=- 5]

Myke;2138465']To properly test a larger scale Coop mission it takes a few more than two players. Two players might be enough to check the general mechanics' date=' triggers and scripts but wont be enough to test the flow of the mission.

The same goes for PvP missions. You can test the general mechanics with two players but it needs a few more to see if the mission does work as intended.

Would you like to discuss this point with Xeno? Or Benny? Or with some of the other coop mission makers out there? I wouldn't say to make mission for one or the other gamemode is "easier" or "harder", it is different. In coop missions there are just other problems around than in PvP missions, which aren't always easy to solve.

Exactly. You (not personally, generally speaking) have to take action, do the required steps. You have to become active since nobody is presenting it on a silver platter. So we're back at the beginning of the problem.

At release, coop players and PvP players had the same starting point: a sandbox called ArmA2, giving all freedom to create whatever people like to create and play. AFAIR, never ever any coop player demanded that BIS should give more (or any at all) support for coop game modes. At start, every gamemode had the same chance to evolve. Coop evolved, PvP didn't. Is it BIS fault? How can it be? They never favorized coop before PvP as far as i can tell. It all goes down to the community itself.

I had a few chats with some people that would like to have more PvP servers. Whenever i told them to go ahead and start something, the response was always the same: naw, i don't want to make something, i just want to play.

Say thanks to BF and CoD.

I wouldn't say that ArmA 2 is for the more mature players but i surely would say that ArmA 2 is for those people that have understood that life doesn't offer everything on a silver platter.

Again, i'm not against PvP at all. Because i'm not interested in it doesn't mean i do hate it. The armaverse is big enough for all kind of players. However, i dislike people that do think that PvP is superior to coop.

Last note for Qazdar:

About your "GAY" argument: i'm more man that you'll ever be and more woman that you'll ever have. :p[/quote']

Good points

I agree a game evolves to be what ever it's going to be, at the hands of the players. I don't think there is much more that BIS could have done to make PVP more popular than COOP. People play what they want to play, and the server browser is a reflection of this.

The very type of game that Arma is dictates why PVP is unpopular in the Public server realm. That is not to say that this situation could not change with the right innovation from a mission designer, causing PVP to be as popular as COOP as a result. I think it would be great if that happened.

The hate for coop and coop missions by some pvp players also baffles me and can be down right insulting to the talented creators of these missions.

Edited April 22, 2012 by -=seany=-

[[frl]myke 14]

Happy to discuss it with anyone but I'd have thought the case was self-evident. Q: Which team wins in a game of Domination? A: It doesn't matter. You can only fail to complete and nobody's going to feel aggrieved whatever the outcome. To the degree that it might be thought of as competitive the playing field is always perfectly level, everybody starts from the same base, with the same access to the same gear and is required to negotiate the same geography from the same starting point.

As i can only speak for myself, for me is playing competitive TvT/PvP missions pointless. I already know that some are better than me and some are not. And even if it would turn out that i'm the best player, it wouldn't pay my bills or raise my son. So i really don't care if my skills are top notch or sub-par. That's why i prefer coop over competitive gamemodes.

As said, i only speak for myself.

But that's now OT. The thread is about why there is no to little PvPscene. Let me put it in a rather provocative phrase: because PvP players are mostly (exceptions exists, not as many that it would make a significant change) big mouthed wannabe's without the cojones to start something serious. Trying to start something includes the risk to fail and those people couldn't handle a fail. The only way to be absolutely sure not to fail, is not to start anything at all.

Ok, this is now extremely provocatively phrased but so far i see no evidence that it might be otherwise.

[NoRailgunner 0]

"If done properly"... everything can be great & awesome!! But who decides what is "good" and what is "bad" in the first place? Guess there are some guys who got stuck in a certain gamemode/mission type and even don't want to try something else because it could be fun too. Imagine the "stress" of enjoying multiple scenarious with different people..... :butbut:

[Defunkt 431]

Myke;2138918']Ok' date=' this is now extremely provocatively phrased but so far i see no evidence that it might be otherwise.[/quote']

You just choose to ignore the evidence. Honestly you display exactly the prejudices toward P-v-P that you complain that those players hold towards co-op. It's not provocative, merely childish.

It is patently more difficult to get P-v-P off the ground, aside from the enormous difficulty of making a mission that must be fair for both sides (something that doesn't have to be considered at all for co-op), if 50 people on a server represent 100% of the ArmA experience (be it co-op or p-v-p), in co-op 2 people on the server is still like 75% of the experience while 2 people in a 50 player P-v-P mission is like 5% of the experience and a real disincentive for more to join.

[[frl]myke 14]

It's not provocative, merely childish.

Well, i guess it depends on the personal POV.

It is patently more difficult to get P-v-P off the ground, aside from the enormous difficulty of making a mission that must be fair for both sides (something that doesn't have to be considered at all for co-op), if 50 people on a server represent 100% of the ArmA experience (be it co-op or p-v-p), in co-op 2 people on the server is still like 75% of the experience while 2 people in a 50 player P-v-P mission is like 5% of the experience and a real disincentive for more to join.

Now i could accuse you of being ignorant. While i agree with you that a TvT/PvP mission is difficult to balance so it is fair for both sides, it isn't much easier to design a coop mission so it remains challenging while solveable, regardless if there are 2 or 50 players. The balancing problems might be of different nature but they are there for all gamemodes.

The only point where i would agree would be the terrain which ideally should be symmetrical so both sides have the same advantages/disadvantages regarding of terrain. I see that none of the BIS islands does offer such a place. Hopefully BIS will with A3 introduce a way to include usermade terrains into the game so talented and willing community members could create such terrain.

[ratszo 17]

An interesting read from SickBoy and other SU/ACE team members --thx for all your work on the game.

The PvP scene will get better as more people see how good the netcode and hit detection has become. It's very playable, ever with a heavy server load and hi/lo pings.

I've noticed the United Operations players doing more pvp using ace/acre. PvP maps don't just happen. The same guys who've made great coop maps are using there skill and dedicated play-testing to make new pvp missions.

Roleplaying? Well, haven't tried Life, yet it's tres cool folks have come up with a whole new way to play arma. How could that be bad?

A persistant world is the "holy grail" in combined arms, pvp play. Maybe the Life players are on to something?

Anyway, thx again to all the modders and server owners who spend their time and money on our game.

[celery 8]

Myke;2139053']The only point where i would agree would be the terrain which ideally should be symmetrical so both sides have the same advantages/disadvantages regarding of terrain. I see that none of the BIS islands does offer such a place. Hopefully BIS will with A3 introduce a way to include usermade terrains into the game so talented and willing community members could create such terrain.

I think you are missing the point if you think that pvp needs symmetrical maps. In the editor stage of making of traditional pvp missions, the biggest challenge is to find suitable respawn positions that aren't too far from where the action is but cannot be griefed, bottlenecked or used as a cheap camping position. Of course you can use a script to punish supposed abusers, but bad respawn positioning makes such scripts a nuisance in and of themselves.

[Gera_CCT 12]

Well, i Love PvsAI mode but PvP like PR are very good too.

[tremanarch 6]

maybe if PvP wasnt just only about killing others.

The game gives us the mechanics. I like going on patrole with comrades or doing solo "ninja" missions. WHy not make a big "Battlearea" where every team meber has a job to do - some must patrole - some others ,must watch an area or sth.

as far away from the hated "deathmatch - mode" as possible.

I am new to Arma so please excuse me if there are professional PvP Servers / missions out there where it is not just only about killing each other but to obtain some goals - hold positions, gather information etc etc escort a person..

and all at multiple locations, and maybe redundant so that the other team must find out, what their oponent is doing in order to cancel it etc

it could also be mixed up with some ai soldiers who would spawn somewhere and attack sone cite which must be protectet. (like Dota ;))

Edited April 22, 2012 by tremanarch

[celery 8]

maybe if PvP wasnt just only about killing others.

How many team deathmatches have you seen in the game browser lately?

[DetCord 96]

Myke;2139053']Well' date=' i guess it depends on the personal POV.

Now i could accuse you of being ignorant. While i agree with you that a TvT/PvP mission is difficult to balance so it is fair for both sides, it isn't much easier to design a coop mission so it remains challenging while solveable, regardless if there are 2 or 50 players. The balancing problems might be of different nature but they are there for all gamemodes.

The only point where i would agree would be the terrain which ideally should be symmetrical so both sides have the same advantages/disadvantages regarding of terrain. I see that none of the BIS islands does offer such a place. Hopefully BIS will with A3 introduce a way to include usermade terrains into the game so talented and willing community members could create such terrain.[/quote']

Our TvT games, and indeed others out there, are focused around specific real-world operations, missions, and a set of objectives. It's not simply about shooting human controlled pixels about the map. It is about being engrossed into a dynamic and ever changing combat environment (not available in COOP) where your decisions can and do have a impact upon not only what happens next, but the overall outcome as a whole. I understand you like your A to B to C to D and so on and so forth. Problem is, that design is reciprocal and ultimately self defeating, not too mention rather boring. I don't enjoy being led around by the hand in any mission, and that is what most COOP games essentially are. Which is why I made the move from COOP to TvT/

TvT Example:

Do I preform a KLE in this village with AI controlled civilians, or do I simply bypass it?

If I bypass it, will local insurgent forces (human players) then sway the population (AI) away from Coalition support?

If they sway it away from Coalition support, do I then initiate a operation utilizing massive resources that could otherwise be relegated to other areas to pacify and dismantle AFF elements?

These are just a tiny example of what is needed in not only operational decision making, but tactical and strategic as well.

I understand you do not like the game-mode. That is most certainly evident. However, if you wish to continue said argument you could at the very least post relevant and non-counterproductive comments where your assertions tie in.

[[frl]myke 14]

@DetCord

please re-read my post again. I do agree with you that a well-made and challenging (and therefor interesting) TvT mission isn't easy to make. I've never said otherwise. But same goes for a well-made and challenging (and therefor interesting) coop mission. As the problems to create such interesting missions might be different, they're not easier to solve. A good coop mission doesn't follow your named "go to A then B then C then D" path but let the players decide what tactics they would like to follow. And a well-made coop plays out differently depending on the way chosen by the players and by random events occuring.

I understand you do not like the game-mode.

Thanks, i see you know the difference between "i do not like" and "i hate". Appreciate it.

But still, why isn't PvP/TvT not as popular as coop?

Another theory: since the average age of players is somewhat higher compared to other games, it might be that those people just tend to prefer a non-competitive gamemode. Due to the higher age, people are all the day in competitive situations in their jobs and probably don't like to compete again in their spare free time but rather play side by side with friends (as opposite to "play competitive against friends").

Just a theory.

[james2464 176]

Myke;2138918']As i can only speak for myself' date=' for me is playing competitive TvT/PvP missions pointless. I already know that some are better than me and some are not. And even if it would turn out that i'm the best player, it wouldn't pay my bills or raise my son. So i really don't care if my skills are top notch or sub-par. That's why i prefer coop over competitive gamemodes.

As said, i only speak for myself.

But that's now OT. The thread is about why there is no to little PvPscene. Let me put it in a rather provocative phrase: because PvP players are mostly (exceptions exists, not as many that it would make a significant change) big mouthed wannabe's without the cojones to start something serious. Trying to start something includes the risk to fail and those people couldn't handle a fail. The only way to be absolutely sure not to fail, is not to start anything at all.

Ok, this is now extremely provocatively phrased but so far i see no evidence that it might be otherwise.[/quote']

Have you ever played a PvP game? Have you ever played anything other than COOP Arma?

You assume:

1. PvP is about who is "better" or the "best"

2. PvP is "pointless"

3. You assume if you're not the best you can't pay your bills and raise your son, (COOP can?)

4. PvP is about having "top notch" skills, sub-par is "inferior"

5. You believe given the exceptions PvP players are big mouthed wannabe's without cojones to start something serious

6. You assume people that don't start something given the tools of Arma couldn't handle failure.

7. You assume there is no evidence to the contrary

WTF is this? It's not the people nor is it PvP!

Now we aren't all free of bias, arrogance or ignorance clearly...

But I have to make the point that all members of the Arma community must avoid this extreme ignorance especially with PvP!

So please, I ask all Arma fans and members of the community to try PvP or the PR mod and at least read about the strategies, tactics and concepts around specific PvP missions and mods, this way you can actually form a balanced argument and decide for yourself whether you like it or not!

Can I also remind people that BIS have specially designated designers working on out-of-the-box PvP for Arma 3? Yes.

[xeno 230]

So please, I ask all Arma fans and members of the community to try PvP or the PR mod and at least read about the strategies, tactics and concepts around specific PvP missions and mods, this way you can actually form a balanced argument and decide for yourself whether you like it or not!

Many people have tried the PR mod since it came out yet not many are left who play it. You can't rely on the hope that people will play a specific way on a public server, it simply doesn't work (in no game btw). Neither can you force people to play a specific way.

Can I also remind people that BIS have specially designated designers working on out-of-the-box PvP for Arma 3? Yes.

Which BIS designers ? The BIS developer who is the MP designer for A3 is making DayZ, the Zombie RPG. And he has already admitted that he is not good in balancing gameplay (which is not needed for a mission like DayZ, as the non-balancing is one gameplay element of it). So the chances that the main MP mode for A3 will be a some kind of RPG with persistent stats saving ?!? and the rest is up to the community again.

You don't simply create <add-whatever-gametype>/mission which will work in public playing in no time. Especially making MP missions for public playing is completely different to making MP missions which are played on closed servers. You have to consider so many things, public players will find every single exploit for example (and solving those issues is the part which takes quite a huge amount of time making such missions).

Anyways, this, like so many other threads with the same context, is more about individuals who think that there is only one game mode/one way you can play a game or this game and that is what they play. And that's the problem.

They simply refuse to accept that others have different tastes or that other game modes can be fun too. And instead of getting their hands dirty and fix the problem themself it's easier to point at something or blaming x or y is responsible for it.

Xeno

[[frl]myke 14]

Have you ever played a PvP game?

Yes

Have you ever played anything other than COOP Arma?

I've played mostly CTF, TDM, DM and C&H in OFP. Also made such missions regulary back in OFP.

1. PvP is about who is "better" or the "best"

Well, it's in the nature of competitive gamemodes. If you aren't better than your (human) opponent, you die and he (or his team) might win.

2. PvP is "pointless"

It is for me. Exactly as "pointless" as coop might be for others. It is called "personal preference". I never said it is pointless at all.

3. You assume if you're not the best you can't pay your bills and raise your son, (COOP can?)

No. What i said, it gives me nothing to be the best. It wont help my life in any way (unless i'm a korean Starcraft player).

4. PvP is about having "top notch" skills, sub-par is "inferior"

Let me quote myself and highlight the relevant part for you:

So i really don't care if my skills are top notch or sub-par.

5. You believe given the exceptions PvP players are big mouthed wannabe's without cojones to start something serious

Go ahead, prove me wrong and you surely will be the hero for the PvPscene. Besides PR i don't see very much going on.

6. You assume people that don't start something given the tools of Arma couldn't handle failure.

I assume, yes. Based on the people i spoke to and the experiences made so far.

7. You assume there is no evidence to the contrary

Show me, show me.

Now we aren't all free of bias, arrogance or ignorance clearly...

Aye, i wouldn't exclude myself there, surely not.

Out of interest:

- the game is out

- it has a mission editor

- it has a versatile scripting language

- the game can be modded in nearly every way

- the tools to create addons (if necessary) are available

- addons can be added to the game

- server software is available, even for Linux

Now someone explain me why there isn't a strong PvP scene? Technically, everything that could be needed is available for free (except the game itself).

[Atkins 10]

maybe if PvP wasnt just only about killing others.

The game gives us the mechanics. I like going on patrole with comrades or doing solo "ninja" missions. WHy not make a big "Battlearea" where every team meber has a job to do - some must patrole - some others ,must watch an area or sth.

(like Dota ;))

You definitely have to try PR then. You can patrol, defend, attack, recon, ninja, do logistics, build stuff like spawn points etc.. and all this in a pure PvP environment.

[Choki 10]

PR was the savior angel of PvP gameplay. Try it, learn it, love it.

true!!!

[ratszo 17]

Myke;213

Now someone explain me why there isn't a strong PvP scene? Technically' date=' everything that could be needed is available for free (except the game itself).[/quote']

Myke, i can explain that to ya. The PvP scene only started afew monthe ago with v1.60. Before December, PvP didn't work. Now it's fixed.

So now, PR and Zday are hot on server numbers..., it's a new thing. People are buying the game now just to play this netcode online.

What's happening is the game is opening up to online play. It's a big deal. A game changer.

Arma3 may be a big hit, a success, based on smooth PvP.

Is coop better than pvp? --who knows; who cares. The offline single mission players think you're both wankers.

[nkenny 1051]

PvP is neglected because its hard to turn a ship around mid journey. I will hazard a guess and say that the majority of fans who stuck with BIS through the dark ages (ARMA1) and to the present enlightened era (v1.60) are predominantly COOP/PvE players.

Nonetheless PvP offers tremendously fun, tactical, and dynamic challenges. More players are coming to appreciate that. As a sometime mission creator what I'm missing the most is a good and easy 'package' to facilitate round based combat. Preferably a drop in solution without an extreme script\implementation overhead. In realism games the "Last Man Standing" tend to give me the best experience; I would love to create more.

-k

[Nicholas 5]

The only time I like PvP is when there is a major goal such as capturing a flag. I remember in OFP playing CTF and it was a blast. It wasn't just about getting as many kills as you possibly can.

[james2464 176]

Many people have tried the PR mod since it came out yet not many are left who play it.

When PR came out with the very first version v0.10 it was a BETA, the 1.60 release was about 3 months away. This left PR with a bad impression for new and old players of Arma and people left because of various issues with netcode and the mod itself, it played horrible. Like someone said PvP players only came out of the woods back in December.

Now with the release of the vastly improved v0.15 beta and 1.60, there's a solid player base that hits peak on the weekends, about 100+ people playing PR, not alot but it's a great start. What have you got against that? Each new release draws more people to the mod to try it out.

The popular PR server was ranking 1st for weeks and now sits at 3rd, that statistic isn't comparable but it shows there's more people playing than you might think.

You can't rely on the hope that people will play a specific way on a public server, it simply doesn't work (in no game btw). Neither can you force people to play a specific way.

Seriously? ACE is a really good mod and no doubt you understand the first release of any mod especially when you have a small team is quite challenging. No one here is relying on hope their too busy building a mod.

You need to understand that PR has it's own concept of PvP which is popular.

Some people love it and others have suggestions and others simply don't like it because like you they think it's forcing something on them which is fine that's your opinion.

If you can list what is forcing people to play a specific way then I'd gladly critique your answer.

You think a specific type of gameplay on a public server simply doesnt work in no game? Wow.

BF3 has sold 11million copies and COD rumored at 20million+. Looks like people are playing a specific way on a public server, ZOMG Y U NO CALL THE POLICE?

Which BIS designers ? The BIS developer who is the MP designer for A3 is making DayZ, the Zombie RPG. And he has already admitted that he is not good in balancing gameplay (which is not needed for a mission like DayZ, as the non-balancing is one gameplay element of it). and the rest is up to the community again.

There are multiple designers working on something great for PvP to us the words of the creative director.

Dayz is his personal work released to us for free obviously not the work he's currently doing with Arma 3 than again no one knows what he's up to.

You assert that "the rest is up to the community again" as if to say BIS will do this for PvP, time will tell.

So the chances that the main MP mode for A3 will be a some kind of RPG with persistent stats saving ?!?

0

You don't simply create <add-whatever-gametype>/mission which will work in public playing in no time. Especially making MP missions for public playing is completely different to making MP missions which are played on closed servers. You have to consider so many things, public players will find every single exploit for example (and solving those issues is the part which takes quite a huge amount of time making such missions).

Hense PR is a beta v0.15, the full release will be v0.20 and it looks to be an awesome upgrade.

Anyways, this, like so many other threads with the same context, is more about individuals who think that there is only one game mode/one way you can play a game or this game and that is what they play. And that's the problem.

They simply refuse to accept that others have different tastes or that other game modes can be fun too.

What? I highly doubt people have a hard time understanding that people play different ways, PvP players are also COOP players and RPG players are also both.

Some don't like gameplay X because they prefer Y, big deal.

And instead of getting their hands dirty and fix the problem themself it's easier to point at something or blaming x or y is responsible for it.

This is more your own frustration.

---------- Post added at 01:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 AM ----------

Myke;2139462']Yes

I've played mostly CTF' date=' TDM, DM and C&H in OFP. Also made such missions regulary back in OFP.[/quote']

:bored:

Well, it's in the nature of competitive gamemodes. If you aren't better than your (human) opponent, you die and he (or his team) might win.

That is your narrow point of view.

It is for me. Exactly as "pointless" as coop might be for others. It is called "personal preference". I never said it is pointless at all.

For you it's pointless sure.

No. What i said, it gives me nothing to be the best. It wont help my life in any way (unless i'm a korean Starcraft player).

So i really don't care if my skills are top notch or sub-par.

Story of your life?

Go ahead, prove me wrong and you surely will be the hero for the PvPscene. Besides PR i don't see very much going on.

You don't see much going on for PR? Orly, that's nice but sadly your narrow view and arrogance is pathetic.

6. You assume people that don't start something given the tools of Arma couldn't handle failure.

I assume, yes. Based on the people i spoke to and the experiences made so far.

:bored: That's nice.

Aye, i wouldn't exclude myself there, surely not.

Good to know.

Out of interest:

- the game is out

- it has a mission editor

- it has a versatile scripting language

- the game can be modded in nearly every way

- the tools to create addons (if necessary) are available

- addons can be added to the game

- server software is available, even for Linux

Now someone explain me why there isn't a strong PvP scene? Technically, everything that could be needed is available for free (except the game itself).

Oh you need someone to explain something for you, PvP in Arma only really kicked off publicly after the 1.60 patch hence PR using the tools you describe above built a PvP mod and it's doing pretty well.

With 100+ people playing over the weekends, it's only in BETA form too. Large things come from small beginnings, this can be said for alot of addons.

[jedra 11]

It's amazing how much emotion this subjest stirrs up. I mainly play co-op in Arma probably because it's about the only game 'out there' that does it properly. My PvP fix is pretty much covered my most other games I own - although I enjoy playing PR and some of the I44 PvP missions too. Also, I guess I don't particularly care how much better I am than someone else (probably because usually I am not!!). I do hope however that Arma 3 sees both playing styles covered.

I guess what would worry me is too much of a compromise towards 'other' mainstream PvP games. I would hate to see people leaping around like lunatics, or running for 10 miles without any sign of coronary or respiritory distress! However implementing some of the animations that Smookie put together wouldn't be a bad idea.

[celery 8]

Don't forget that pvp in Arma is just that: Arma where instead of AI, you're fighting against players. It has no implication of changing the game itself.

[jackrabbitslim7 10]

There is pvp in arma, it's called Hold or AAS (advance and secure) there is one server for arma 2 open everyday and some servers for OA/CO on the week end. I play regulary on those servers.