Cover Systems, Lean & Realism

[hoak 0]

There's an interesting thread here on the Ubisoft R6: Vegas forums with some good illustrations and discussion of both the lack of realism in FPS game lean and cover systems, and (more importantly imho) the lack of fluidity, incorrect control interface, and natural effortlessness of lean and cover as implemented in FPS realism games...

The shooting stances that AntiPersonnel has depicted with his one-sixth scale model are fun, and while perhaps a little on the dramatic side do offer a very clear presentation -- as they are for the most part technically correct...

On a related note, so far Ghost Recon and Call Of Duty 4 are the only games to get both weapon handling and camera perspective right with respect to 'leaning', i.e. no tilting of of the camera and canting of the weapon sights when 'leaning' -- canting a firearm from any fire position is still strongly discouraged in most Mil firearms training (with the exception of some specialized CQC handgun paradigms like Castle's CAR Shooting System) and our brains keep then world upright regardless of our heads position...

But no game offers the correct stance, perspective, and 'scale-effort control' for how one shoots around cover or manages fire-maneuver around a corner. An Operator rarely if ever 'leans' at the waist -- as it would throw you off balance, make for very inaccurate fire and would put you on your ear or if you were firing anything with a punchy caliber, or had to move quickly to require a target or were taking fire. In a real cornering maneuver you'd peek first, and then carefully side-step, or in game parlance 'strafe' while aimed (if you were taking the corner standing).

In games, and as far as animation this could be nicely achieved with a shift in stance that's applied before the first strafing step in the intended direction as this would be natural, fluid and automatic -- there could even if be a small lateral 'fluid posture' range of motion similar to what was offered in Raven if there was the desire to really take this to the next level...

As far as control mechanics an alt-strafe key combination that when held turns lateral mouse motion from turning to strafing would be a nice option making the use of strafe less of a finger exercise and more fluid in how Players control character motion ergo a more 'to-scale-effort control' interface.

A similar realistic change in fire position/posture when crouched and prone could achieve a lot of the same effect -- freeing up some key binds, and adding a lot more realism and effortless immersiveness in one design swoop...

:|

[-Coulum- 35]

Sorry didn't have enough time to fully read this only skimmed through. But I do dislike the way the weapon and camera tilt while leaning. Whe it comes to cover systems I would prefer none for the player but rather more controlled strafing method combined with a way to fluidly change the height of your stance so there is a middle ground between standing and crouched. I wouldn't mind cover system for the ai though. I'll read this fully later.

[Smurf 12]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I have to say that RO2 have nice animations for that:

Standing(sorry, best pic I could find; note how the char sidestep instead of leaning), crouching and lying (this is the only one where the camera actual tilts).

While using the cover system: taking a peek and aiming\firing.

Plus, there are some "middle animations" for each stance while aiming (you get higher) and "contextual height" while using cover.

EDIT: Hey, Smookie is taking care of animations and he knows what he is doing.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Smurf

[instagoat 133]

Making a good lean system or cover system without resorting to cheats is impossible, as far as I´m concerned. There´s no intuitive way to do it, and it´s best to leave it out altogether if it can´t be done right, at least for the cover system.

I don´t know -any- game that has a cover system that I could get along with. Some work okay (Mass Effect comes to mind), but are extremely object dependent and glitchy, others are complete trainwrecks (ie Bodycount), but none are what I´d call fluid or intuitive. Everything is done with shortcuts, cheats or ducttape. I wouldn´t be surprised if we don´t see change in this for Arma 3, over Arma 2, and really? I think it´s not that big of a deal. There are much more crucial fields that need to be worked on, such as improving the AI, making all the features work smoothly, make a good campaign (Which the Arma series has been lacking since OFP:R), make good SP and especially MP scenarios for the base game, work on a way to ease players in, and provide documentation for the modding and mission design tools.

Once the basics are down, we can focus on details such as cover systems, detailed weapons operation, etc, etc.

[antoineflemming 14]

As far as a "cover system", why not just have objects that actually block, or slow down bullets, and just have a ducking animation, kinda like Smookie's PvP Animation pack? A cover system (are we talking like GRAW2 for Console (I think they had that 3rd person cover thing, I only played the PC version so I'm not sure) or like Gears of War?) isn't really that necessary, just as long as objects in the game can provide sufficient cover. As far as leaning, isn't that mostly an animation, stance thing as well? If I'm wrong in my assumptions please say something (in a respectful manner of course), but am I over simplifying this issue?

[Defunkt 431]

Re-invent the Crouch key as a stance modifier key (one of those Tom Clancy games had a 'fluid stance' system like this); while held down (or double press to toggle ala Freelook) mouse up-down controls leg stance and left-right controls lean. If at any point you move the degree to which you are crouched will determine if you then move crouched or fully-erect, you auto un-crouch when sprinting, auto un-lean when jogging or sprinting.

[hoak 0]

It's cool to see almost everyone here is in agreement on important points. As Smurf points out (and I to my own surprise forgot) RO2 is another game that correctly models first person weapon handling (ergo no canting), and avoids ridiculous camera tilting...

If -Coulum-, InstaGoat, and others are talking about 'snap to' cover systems (and this appears to be the case), where the player model 'snaps to' map geometry -- I'd generally agree that this is typically a miserable approach to cover design in that it limits you to one absolute level of cover at a limited range of motion and angles of fire -- that as often as not has player hit box or mesh more exposed then he's able to discern.

But, while I was only referring to stance, lean & peak, camera, and weapon handling with respect to 'cover systems' here, not 'snap to' systems; it does warrant mention the 'snap to' approach doesn't have to be the miserable limited affair they are in most console derivative arcade shooters.

My preference is clearly stated in the OT post, i.e. a system much like the one I described on the RO forums when I was part of the Mod Team almost a decade ago that's in RO2 now and mentioned by Smurf -- but, as an interesting aside there has been interesting Developer discussion that argues multi-player games 'lean systems' may create more 'WTF!' issues there realism, where 'WYSI (NOT) WYG', i.e. it becomes increasingly difficult to have PvP consistent hit-reconciliation as we get to smaller and faster player model displacements in time and space.

So, just snapping your head out for a 'peek' and getting it shot off by a Sniper may be difficult to reconcile in a manner where both Players correctly 'get what they see, and see what they get' even at reasonable pings, as the time and space displacement (interchangeable variables on the server really) are so small they will too often be buried in the margin error caused even marginal latency jitter...

This then is one argument for no lean system at all, or use of a 'snap too' system that reduces all the variables of peeking or shooting from cover to a much more finite and manageable range of variables. If this is in fact the case, how would you fellas feel about all lean and peak being taken out of the game entirely for better resolution of hit reconciliation?

:confused:

[pe3rless 1]

medal of honor had well done leaning that was pretty damn good and you could duck as well and had complete control on how far you leaned out and ducked loved it wish they had the mechanic in other games

[-Coulum- 35]

If this is in fact the case, how would you fellas feel about all lean and peak being taken out of the game entirely for better resolution of hit reconciliation?

Ha! It would be a big mistake to do this lots of upset people. Besides wouldn't quickly running a bit out of cover and then running back in quick cause the same reconsilation problems. Only difference is leaning is a hell Of a lot more realistic. If its really that much of a problem would making the lean animation slower help?

[pe3rless 1]

medal of honor had well done leaning that was pretty damn good and you could duck as well and had complete control on how far you leaned out and ducked loved it wish they had the mechanic in other games

heres an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qqUrjajTaw

[Liquihigh 1]

The Medal of Honor one is pretty cool, but I definitely have to toss my support hat in for Red Orchestra 2's, if you haven't seen it, here's a little demo:

watch?v=ra2Yh8b0qyI

*can't post the link because it's my first post

[rye1 21]

MOH one is too quick and clumsy to me. Red Orchestra one just demonstrates blind firing more than anything.

I think animations will sort this stuff out, a good solid and fluid animation will help when leaning are corners or quick-peeking without overly exposing us.

@antoineflemming

Duck, maybe, how would it work?

"why not just have objects that actually block, or slow down bullets" - What do you mean by this?

[Defunkt 431]

Anything that locks you to map geometry must be avoided, that's over-the-shoulder, low-wall shooter, console stuff.

Rediscovered the video of the 'fluid stance' thing, much more in keeping with ArmA's integrity...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6317099139238743886#

[liquidpinky 11]

Anything that locks you to map geometry must be avoided, that's over-the-shoulder, low-wall shooter, console stuff.

Rediscovered the video of the 'fluid stance' thing, much more in keeping with ArmA's integrity...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6317099139238743886#

You had similar with MGS3 in first person view, it was also analogue control so you could control how high or how much to the side you could lean out.

Quite handy in use.

MGS did also have lock onto geometry type cover system, but it wasn't too bad and I would be happy with similar in A3 if you had to hold down a key to engage it as automaticaly doing it can be a pain in the ass.

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

heres an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qqUrjajTaw

um.. no thanks.. look at the 1:20 mark.. notice how the sight line of the scope is hardly an inch above the rock not even 2 feet in front of him? where the hell is the muzzle of the rifle? thats right.. clipping through the rock, as games like those don't properly simulate weapons. they simply have a camera right in the middle of the player's forehead (thats right, not even eye level), so when the player peaks over an object, just the very top of their heads are visible(known in the industry as eye level exploit). this lets the player shoot from behind cover without exposing them selfs.. screw that! every game with the exception of BIS games use this crap. since the shot is calculated from the center of the camera's view, as long as the center pixel clears an object, you can shoot over it.. NOT REALISTIC! keep that crap the hell away from my ArmA!

[maddogx 13]

Nice to see a mostly constructive discussion on this topic. I thought it would be impossible on these forums. :)

Anyway, I agree with Defunkt that "sticky" cover systems are to be avoided (currently the only thing I'm hating in Mass Effect 3), but there are alternatives. One good example I always feel the need to mention is the cover system in Vietcong - firefights in that game were always awesome, because you could quickly pop up from behind cover to fire off a few shots.

Generally speaking, I would like to see at least one thing in Arma that could be classified as a "cover system":

When crouched behind a wall or object and looking toward that wall/object, bringing up iron sights should make your avatar dynamically shift his stance (analogue) so that the barrel of the gun is "looking over" the geometry, if possible. This should also work for windows, holes in a wall etc. Coming out of iron sights or moving away from the wall would return you to your previous stance. Note that this is "non-sticky" - only your height is adjusted dependent on the situation.

Otherwise I'm not sure what else would make sense.

[NoRailgunner 0]

What about using the mousewheel for more fluid movement/stance so the player can adjust it easily? Imo power-sliding, bunny-jumping and automatic cover-clip-systems should be left to mainstream shooters and console crowd. Let the player decide what he wants to do incl. stop/break current animation/movement. Of course a feedback should be also implemented so he "feels" and knows that some cool looking stuff is only effective in action movies/games.

[maddogx 13]

What about using the mousewheel for more fluid movement/stance so the player can adjust it easily? Imo power-sliding, bunny-jumping and automatic cover-clip-systems should be left to mainstream shooters and console crowd. Let the player decide what he wants to do incl. stop/break current animation/movement. Of course a feedback should be also implemented so he "feels" and knows that some cool looking stuff is only effective in action movies/games.

And there it is... :rolleyes:

No one here is talking about power sliding and bunny hopping - except for you of course.

As for using the mouse wheel for fluid stance changes, it seems like an interesting idea, but what is it really good for? You suggest it as an alternative for what you refer to (derogatively) as a "cover clip" system, but from a game design perspective your suggestion seems overly cumbersome. The way I see it, 99% of the time such a fluid stance feature would be used to achieve a firing position with minimal exposure behind cover. That means players will be trying to find the right height to shoot over the cover they are behind anyway, which will result in similar situations to what we have now: occasionally you will end up too low, resulting in your shots hitting the cover, and most of the time you will be too high (read: higher than necessary), since the level of the barrel is difficult to judge without haptic feedback. I predict that this would result in a lot of awkward adjustments in order to find an ideal position, making it anything but useful in a combat situation.

Now consider the "cover clip" system:

A player is situated behind medium sized cover (a wall, an object or perhaps a window), looks toward said cover and presses the "iron sight" key. I content that this player will be wanting to fire over that cover 100% of the time, since pointing your gun at a solid object at point blank range does not seem very sensible in any situation. With this in mind, what's wrong with automatically elevating the player's position so that his gun rests on said cover? This seems like something that will feel natural and intuitive, as it does in Vietcong. In addition, this could emulate the weapon resting feature than many have been requesting.

Edited March 13, 2012 by MadDogX
clarification

[dmarkwick 261]

IMO the ideal cover system control mechanism would be the TrackIR, although that rather obviously excludes most people. I might suggest however that a keypress would allow the mouse to control extra axes for as long as the key is pressed, snapping back to normal once the key is released or double-tapped or some similar mechanism. I seem to remember Raven Shield had such an analogue lean mechanism that was usable and useful. I'm going to make the assumption that a reasonable analogue to TrackIR can be worked out.

I guess we can mostly all agree that hardcoded hardpoint cover positions can be disregarded, and that the cover system be entirely stance based? I think that an analogue control system of lean and crouch can be implemented and improved on. Lean works to a small degree in ArmA2 but it's too "shallow" a lean to have much tactical effect against enemy, particularly when crouched. Hidden & Dangerous 2 had an effective crouched lean that involved an animation that basically had you kind of step out for a good look while crouched. You sort of reached your leg out, then you were able to shift your bulk to over the stretched leg, then back again. It seemed very realistic to me.

Analogue crouched control I guess would work using each of the 3 basic stances as base viewpoints. The unused TrackIR Y-axis could be used to inch your view up and down from these 3 positions, giving you the opportunity to hide or peep over in long grass when prone, duck down or peep over walls & vehicles when crouched, and to hunch or tiptoe to see over walls when standing. (Anyone noticed that you already can sort of do this in ArmA2, by lowering your weapon? When you lower your weapon, you gain a few inches in height which can allow you to see over walls sometimes.)

---------- Post added at 12:55 ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 ----------

A player is situated behind medium sized cover (a wall, an object or perhaps a window), looks toward said cover and presses the "iron sight" key. I content that this player will be wanting to fire over that cover 100% of the time, since pointing your gun at a solid object at point blank range does not seem very sensible in any situation. With this in mind, what's wrong with automatically elevating the player's position so that his gun rests on said cover? This seems like something that will feel natural and intuitive, as it does in Vietcong. In addition, this could emulate the weapon resting feature than many have been requesting.

This is a good idea. I might suggest that a hotkey (as implemented in ACE2) activate a rest-on-surface function that places you in the correct stance to be as low as possible and still be in a firing position.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Let the player adjust his position and his rifle how and where he likes it instead of "clipping" him into a certain place. Otherwise the feeling of beeing "guided" or "controlled" by gameplay design is awkward and nonnatural. But maybe mindless fanbois are just too comfy using a key/button to get into the right position or to select what they actually want? Perhaps its better to implement an "UltraAuto" mode so those players have only to decided to shoot or to reload? Seriously where gaming is gone if the player can't controll and move his ingame character how he likes??

[maddogx 13]

Let the player adjust his position and his rifle how and where he likes it instead of "clipping" him into a certain place. Otherwise the feeling of beeing "guided" or "controlled" by gameplay design is awkward and nonnatural. But maybe mindless fanbois are just too comfy using a key/button to get into the right position or to select what they actually want? Perhaps its better to implement an "UltraAuto" mode so those players have only to decided to shoot or to reload? Seriously where gaming is gone if the player can't controll and move his ingame character how he likes??

Are you seriously coming back with some childish crap about "fanbois" already? I'll chalk that one up as an instant win, thanks. Now go play somewhere else, sweety, the grown ups are trying to have a serious conversation here.

I might suggest that a hotkey (as implemented in ACE2) activate a rest-on-surface function that places you in the correct stance to be as low as possible and still be in a firing position.

Actually that's better than what I had in mind - so scratch my comment about weapon resting. Although I still think that going into ironsights while behind cover should elevate you so that your barrel is above the edge of it. No sticking, no "clipping", you retain full freedom of movement as you normally would, but your avatar simply raises his stance slightly so that your barrel isn't pointed uselessly at a wall from point blank range.

Combining those two ideas (adding a key for weapon resting, as you suggest) might even be the ideal solution, I think.

[Guess Who 10]

The inherent problem with systems like in Raven Shield is, you cannot aim while you're adjusting your stance. That is/was bad design.

[[evo] dan 79]

Actually that's better than what I had in mind - so scratch my comment about weapon resting. Although I still think that going into ironsights while behind cover should elevate you so that your barrel is above the edge of it. No sticking, no "clipping", you retain full freedom of movement as you normally would, but your avatar simply raises his stance slightly so that your barrel isn't pointed uselessly at a wall from point blank range.

Combining those two ideas (adding a key for weapon resting, as you suggest) might even be the ideal solution, I think.

^ this, I think it would be a good idea so when you press to rest your weapon, it will actually put your weapon on top of the wall so you can shoot over it.

[cotton 1]

i both like and dislike the cover systems in that, its not realistic when your taking cover and can still see the enemy but it does ensure that your character is taking cover. if they would make it so that you cant see past your true line of sight then, it would be more realistic and practical. so i think the solution if this were implemented is when you take cover, you no longer can see what you shouldnt be able to see. if you want to see around that corner, your head at least needs to poke out risking the chance of getting shot.

as far as the movement, from arma 2 it needs to be more fluid. it feels like handling a character that has never touched a gun before, particularly when it comes to CQC situations. I know its probably looked at as blasphemy here but BF3 has probably the best in a dynamic movement system. it would be nice to see arma achieve at least half of that. i dont think the character should glide across the map, but i also dont think it should be a struggle to get them through close situations. basically somewhere in the middle, take that feel and bring it closer to reality.

[Tonci87 163]

Are you seriously coming back with some childish crap about "fanbois" already? I'll chalk that one up as an instant win, thanks. Now go play somewhere else, sweety, the grown ups are trying to have a serious conversation here.

Actually that's better than what I had in mind - so scratch my comment about weapon resting. Although I still think that going into ironsights while behind cover should elevate you so that your barrel is above the edge of it. No sticking, no "clipping", you retain full freedom of movement as you normally would, but your avatar simply raises his stance slightly so that your barrel isn't pointed uselessly at a wall from point blank range.

Combining those two ideas (adding a key for weapon resting, as you suggest) might even be the ideal solution, I think.

I like this idea, but how hard will it be to achieve this? None of us knows what kind of animation system BIS will be using in A3. Will it be rigid, tied to stances or will it be dynamic. If we get the dynamic one then this Idea is possible. We can even expand on it. Hit the crouched or prone key to immediately switch to this stance, hit the key combo again to get into shooting position. Poping out of cover would work great that way.

But there is one problem, what happens if you move? If you move in ACE your weapon is not rested anymore. My suggestion: While in this mode the player can move left or right slow along the wall, he can´t leave the wall uless he hits the S key or leaves that position by hitting a stance key.

Other Ideas?