Multi-optics support?

[Steakslim 1]

http://www.knightarmco.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Jerome-1.jpg

This setup doesn't work "in my mind" :p Doesn't the scope simply zoom into a TV screen, just making pixels bigger, and thus doesn't improve anything at all? Also, wouldn't the scope have to support some really extreme near focus capabilities to focus on that screen?

I'm not doubting that it works (wouldn't have made it otherwise), just find it a bit unnatural. So, how does it work?

Oh wait, maybe the IR resolution is quite bad, but you still get the other benefits from the sight? Like mil dot markings for range estimations etc, just with a bad IR image compared to what we're getting in Arma?

You're right about resolution concerns, and it varies on the quality of the optic. The UNS-T ,which is a smaller FLIR clip-on optic, has specs that are listed that at the spatial resolution of 0.5 MRAD, a mansize target from 1000m would be 4 pixels high (by the fpa pixel standard that the optic is based on).

[bradp191 10]

We had something called an ATWS (I think we dubbed it the PAS-24. Not sure if that's proper nomenclature.) that we mounted in front of our ACOGs when I was in Afghanistan. It worked great. Your sight zero carried over, and I guess they made the pixels really small, because it had image quality through the ACOG comparable to that of the PAS-13 normally.

[BobcatBob 10]

Is anyone concioulsy aware of any engine limitations (based off arma 2 mostly) that would prevent this feature from functioning properly or would come down to a simple decision by BIS to decide whether it's worth it or not. Maybe this feautre requires some use of RTT:confused:

Also, it's good to know im not cray!;) Thanks for all the info/good discussion guys, maybe the devs will notice this thread and respond! (Hopefully with something more than a little "teaser" though;))

[dysta 10]

Instead of multi-mounted optics, what about the optic compensate with helmet/visor attachment like this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Soldier_wearing_PSQ-20_Enhanced_Night_Vision_Goggles.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/38503190/547b8de9-0177-46db-ab31-d4488e84db70.jpg

[Steakslim 1]

Is anyone concioulsy aware of any engine limitations (based off arma 2 mostly) that would prevent this feature from functioning properly or would come down to a simple decision by BIS to decide whether it's worth it or not. Maybe this feautre requires some use of RTT:confused:

Also, it's good to know im not cray!;) Thanks for all the info/good discussion guys, maybe the devs will notice this thread and respond! (Hopefully with something more than a little "teaser" though;))

Depending on how the feature is implemented. In the event of say, putting a thermal optic in front of an aimpoint, it would require RTT. In the event of scopes, acogs, eclans, and all other magnified optics, no, unless BIS changes how they handle such sights and use RTT on them already. BTW I suggested in either the weapons thread, or the wishlist thread to be able to put some thermal/flir style optic in front of an aimpoint with RTT a while ago. It's something I'd very much love to see.

[BobcatBob 10]

Depending on how the feature is implemented. In the event of say, putting a thermal optic in front of an aimpoint, it would require RTT. In the event of scopes, acogs, eclans, and all other magnified optics, no, unless BIS changes how they handle such sights and use RTT on them already. BTW I suggested in either the weapons thread, or the wishlist thread to be able to put some thermal/flir style optic in front of an aimpoint with RTT a while ago. It's something I'd very much love to see.

Cool! good to know.

[Baff1 0]

@BobcatBob:

TI behind ACOG - you increase the size of the TIs screen pixels. You don't get increased optical zoom, you get a useless digital zoom that serves no purpose.

ACOG behind TI - the ACOG would block thermal input coming to the TI, effectively making it useless.

What would be the purpose of this? Or do I misunderstand the tech? In the case of something more sensible, like magnifier and red dot sight working together, I'm happy with giving the player access to both ACOG and red dot sights instead, especially considering the red dots doesn't provide the real world advantages it's supposed to in the first place.

Can't you just put a lens doubler on the nightvision sight?

I have x1.5 magnification on mine.

Acog's are expensive and you are adding unnecessary weight.

I do stack mine though with mini red dot sights.

If you can have a second sight for your grenade launcher, then it might be easy to impliment switching between looking through the scope or holosight also.

Or all your various lasers etc.

(Like this cool one..

)

Edited October 9, 2011 by Baff1

[BobcatBob 10]

Can't you just put a lens doubler on the nightvision sight?

I have x1.5 magnification on mine.

Acog's are expensive and you are adding unnecessary weight.

I do stack mine though with mini red dot sights.

If you can have a second sight for your grenade launcher, then it might be easy to impliment switching between looking through the scope or holosight also.

Or all your various lasers etc.

(Like this cool one..

)

Iz the Pr3dator!!!

Edited October 11, 2011 by W0lle
quoted image

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@Baff1: Don't know. Doesn't that also reduce quality? Nut sure about the mount:

1) Eye - screen based sight - magnifier - target, or

2) Eye - magnifier - screen based sight - target

Setup 1: might work since in a night vision you only modify what comes into the sight using some additional glass - photons still goes through. In a TWS setup however, that extra glass would block the thermal spectrum.

Setup 2: would work in both setups, but only as a "digital zoom", meaning at least old displays with old lp's wouldn't be feasible (again, in my mind) :))

But, whatever. They removed night vision capability from ACOGs and other non night capable sights. Time to take it a bit further by reducing resolution and/or limiting view distance. Even todays night visions don't have Arma's capabilities wrt i.e. detection range. Maybe auto view distance from 100-500m depending on available environmental light (weather/moon)? Hmm, something for my mission? :D

[dysta 10]

...why nobody can answer my question in #29...? :(

[da12thMonkey 1943]

...why nobody can answer my question in #29...? :(

Helmet-mounted electro-optics can't really be used properly with telescopic weapon sights - even the monocular-type ones that are worn over the opposite eye get in the way of you looking through the weapon sight properly.

You'd still have to take them off to look through say, an ACOG, like you have to do with the PVS-7 NVGs in Op. Arrowhead currently

[Baff1 0]

But, whatever. They removed night vision capability from ACOGs and other non night capable sights. Time to take it a bit further by reducing resolution and/or limiting view distance. Even todays night visions don't have Arma's capabilities wrt i.e. detection range. Maybe auto view distance from 100-500m depending on available environmental light (weather/moon)? Hmm, something for my mission? :D

I find my nightvision has a better range than Arma's.

My goggles don't, but when I use a scope the illuminator is the key to the detection range.

So my IR laser has an adjustable shotgun beam that is set to the same width as my sight, but can be tightened to a narrow beam for longer distances.

Equiped with an IR laser, the only practical limitation to it's range is the magnification on the optic.

I find ArmA nightvision very frustrating in that it goes dark if you use the zoom.

I agree that it should go dark once it gets beyond the range of any illuminator, but not for places in the distance with ambient light.

In game I'm sort of zooming in and out to get the visibility for a sec or two.

Out in the wilderness this approach makes lots of sense, but once you are overlooking the occupied airbase, the ambient light should be more than enough, with the only concern being if you have an ye olde NV that any streetlights/headlights will produce a lot of dazzling bloom.

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 PM ----------

Helmet-mounted electro-optics can't really be used properly with telescopic weapon sights - even the monocular-type ones that are worn over the opposite eye get in the way of you looking through the weapon sight properly.

You'd still have to take them off to look through say, an ACOG, like you have to do with the PVS-7 NVGs in Op. Arrowhead currently

I went from a gun mounted sight to goggles and a holosght.

Goggles are a waste of space.

I switched back to using a scope very quickly indeed.

I found that my goggles, weren't an exact 1x magnification so that I would constanly have to be readjusting the focus before I could see what I was looking at in detail.

The point of goggles over binoculars is to free up your hands. But my hands needed to be constantly on the goggles anyway to mess with the focus as I looked around/the range of where I was looking at varied.

In practical terms this means my goggles are pretty useless outside of a limited range scenario. For example, inside a building. They rock for indoors, but for outdoors a scope is king.

I think this is well reflected in ArmA.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Guess the problem with NVGs in Arma is that blooming is done solely using HDR ti adjust exposure, which isn't the same. As newer NVGs does feature autogain, I'm not sure how to attack the problem. If I use manual exposure (using script), blooming hardly causes any problems at all - the opposite from real life. If I rely on auto exposure, it becomes problematic due to exposure but not due to blooming.

My 500 meter limit was based on something I read, and parameters were clear at half moon, and ability to recognize a barn at that distance. A 250 meter NVG distance would be a tradeoff; no access to illuminators in the game, and in real life you don't leave it on at all times - maybe during active scanning for enemies, but not for relaxed situations where we now magically "detect" enemies because of our supergoggles. Parameters for a man was about 75-100 meters for a good id; man, friendly, weapon etc.

And as you say, the goggles are unfriendly to use. Would love to see proper blooming, limited view distance, and proper reaction to light levels, maybe with inaccurate or fluctuating DOF to indicate the focus issue.

Isn't a "scoped NVG" better because it acts more like a telescope? Bigger objective diameter means more light gathered. I wouldn't exactly love to have this mounted on my helmet :p Just guessing of course. I'm no expert, and have actually never tried NVGs. But from stories I read, I get the impression they are not nowhere near as convenient and great as they are in game.

[Baff1 0]

Scoped NVG is better for me for two reasons, the magnified vision, and it's hands free in outdoor secenarios.

Personally, I do leave my illuminators on 100% of the time. But then I use them nearby to my house where I have a battery recharger, and there is no fear of counter sniping from the rabbits I hunt.

Battery life is up to 70 hours off of one. But maybe only 10 for my laser illuminator.

The goggles Iuse are not as convenient as the ones in the game. Speciifically it is the focusing issue. This is a tool that I simply can't effectively use outdoors.

Or at least, I can't very effectively use it for shooting, because it isn't a hands free operation.

If I sling my gun it's effective for navigation still.

In this googled image,

I can see things very clearly inthe immediate periphery, but to look at the first hedge row with any definition I would have to refocus.

The scope I use is way more convenient. It's gun mounted. I have much more powerful illuminator attached because I have the room on the gun. (Which weighs a ton).

Using it is very much like playing an FPS game. You view the world from a limited field of view, and it makes your arms ache keeping such a heavy weapon up to your eye the whole time. You have to bulk up a bit.

As you can see from this comparison picture, where before the tree is a dark shadow, under illumination it is clearly visible in detail. Without the IR lamp, there could be a sniper in that tree and you wouldn't see him, with the lamp, you can see that there is not.

And the key to for me is the illumination and speed. A big shiney torch beam. It's not just that at allows me to see into the distance or that I can change my focus without lowering my weapon, it also spots my targets.

Eyes when illuminated stick out like cats eyes in the road. I use it to scan for my quarry. It's easier to spot them at nightime than it is in daytime because of this.

Eyes like that would stick out from half a kilometre away. If he was hidi9ng a bush, I would still see those eyes.

While without the illuminator, eyes like this... would not stick out at all.

here's a google image of some NV.

http://www.imaging1.com/nightvision/pvs14_night-vision.GIF

At the range this photo is taken, my NV would show the same sort of thing.

But if I was 100 metres back all /I would see is the blooming light. I wouldn't be able to discern doors and windoes and people, just the light overpowering the whole area around it..

http://www.garysdetecting.co.uk/night_vision.htmd740gen3.jpg

If we look at this picture, the light in the distance appears to be very large. Of similar proportions as to the moon maybe. But it is probably just a single light bulb. (a security light by the looks of it).

So at this distance if there was anythin near that light, or directly between that light and me, I wouldn't be able to discern it on my NV because of all the bloom.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Baff1

[colosseum 34]

Being able to switch scopes and sights in-game is stupid. You'd lose your zero if you swapped out a scope in the middle of a fight. You have to rezero sights any time you fool around with them.

Stupid feature based on lack of real world shooting experience.

[froggyluv 2130]

Thats some world you live in there Baff1. Cool post tho.

[SigintArmA 10]

Being able to switch scopes and sights in-game is stupid. You'd lose your zero if you swapped out a scope in the middle of a fight. You have to rezero sights any time you fool around with them.

Stupid feature based on lack of real world shooting experience.

When you switch out sites on a numbered rail system with Pre-Zeroed sights you will -NOT- lose zero if you replace the same exact sights you already have Pre-Zeroed. If you have an ACOG zeroed on a spot numbered '5' on your rail and switch out to a Red Dot and place it and Zero it on number '6' then replace the -SAME- zeroed ACOG exactly back where you placed it on '5' it will still be zeroed, same if you were to replace the same zeroed red dot on the '6' that you had it on before. I've done it countless times with my friends modified AR with different sights and never have I had to re-zero an already zeroed sight if I placed it -exactly- where I placed it when I zeroed it.

I don't get how people think taking off an ACOG removes it's zeroing. You're not touching the Windage/Elevation nobs at all when taking it off. As long as it's placed exactly where it was at time of zero then it'll remain zeroed.

[bradp191 10]

I don't get how people think taking off an ACOG removes it's zeroing. You're not touching the Windage/Elevation nobs at all when taking it off. As long as it's placed exactly where it was at time of zero then it'll remain zeroed.

In practice, it does affect it a little but not significantly. The torque you put on the screws can throw it off just a tiny bit, and the rails allow for a little play before you tighten it down. However, there's nothing stopping you from re-zeroing on the go either.

[SigintArmA 10]

And in any case, if you have practice with your optics in real life you'd know how you sights react when attaching and removing them so you'd have a sense of where it'll be. It's not gonna throw it off to where you aim for center body mass and it flings the round 50 yards to the left lol it'll still hit what you're aiming at in CQB.

It's just the higher focus optics that will take a bigger hit but as long as you're not throwing your sights into a wall it should be fine. You'll still hit within your zero. You wouldn't be swapping a Red Dot for Leupold in the field in real life anyway. It's what a dedicated rifle is for, or that weapon system that you can change the barrel/sights in the field if need be. But even then you'd need to be set up and in a hide and able to adjust the zero of the long range scope for the area you're shooting in.

So for CQB sights that hit medium range, swapping shouldn't be a real killer unless you drop your sights a lot. Long range sights... just get a dedicated marksmen to carry the rifle. Lol

[colosseum 34]

The ArmA3 preview showed the character swapping a red dot sight for a long-range sniper optic.

Please don't try to tell me that you will maintain sub-MOA accuracy at 800 yards because "you made sure to place it on the numbered spot on the rail". Sure it works when shooting cans at 25 yards with your friend's AR, but on a DMR shooting man-size targets at great distance I don't believe that for a minute.

[Tonci87 163]

I think we need someone with a rifle and different optics to test that

[dysta 10]

I think we need someone with a rifle and different optics to test that

Lots of report that proofed that dismounting and remounting the PSO-1 on SVD and AK-series won't affect any of the zeroing, no adjustment required.

[Baff1 0]

Being able to switch scopes and sights in-game is stupid. You'd lose your zero if you swapped out a scope in the middle of a fight. You have to rezero sights any time you fool around with them.

Stupid feature based on lack of real world shooting experience.

I have a couple of workarounds for this.

The expensive one would be to buy a digital nightvision scope, one with the "one shot zeroing feature".

Press a button, fire a shot and sight is zeroed.

The one that I use however (because those fancy sights are expensive) is a zeroing laser.

I keep a zeroed laser attached to my guns, when I change a sight over I simply calibrate it to the pre-zeroed laser.

The solution is always MOAR LAZORS!

Edited October 20, 2011 by Baff1

[Beagle 684]

Lots of report that proofed that dismounting and remounting the PSO-1 on SVD and AK-series won't affect any of the zeroing, no adjustment required.

I detacvh and attach the scope on my old bolt repeating rifle quite often (bridge mounting) and it needs rezeroing only when changing type of ammunition.

It will be only a problem when you try to make three holes in a Dime at 300m but for general use the zeroing issue can be ignored.

[Baff1 0]

Lots of report that proofed that dismounting and remounting the PSO-1 on SVD and AK-series won't affect any of the zeroing, no adjustment required.

My NV keeps it's zero also, (always buy the Russian gear!), but I'm so anal that I always get my lasers out and check anyway.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Baff1