Thoughts on using enemy uniforms

[njmatrix 2]

Done in Killzone and also Sabateur

[max power 21]

-Mostly aimed at #1 & #2-

When given the options, the letter characters are actually in the language? IE if it's an Iran compound, the choices given to the player in Arabic

In Iran, they speak Farsi.

[Pyronick 21]

One problem I just realized is stealing uniforms and vehicles.

Currently, a Russian soldier hidden inside an Abrams is instantly identified as a Russian tank commander and the tank is viewed as a threat.'

This must be updated, or the crew of an Abrams will be able to take the uniform of the first enemy they kill, climb back into the tank, and then drive to Tehran unnoticed.

This. Also, stolen vehicles and two-way radio's should be given the ability to intercept enemy radio traffic.

I think this would require a huge haulover. But it would certainly improve on "stealth" mission creation and gameplay.

[Zoz 10]

If you think about this for 30 seconds you can soon realize that this feature will require a game on its own to be realised properly. But getting new feature always feels good and I will surely pull out some mission with this, even though I didnt really feel the need of it.

[Engioc 10]

I love the idea of using enemy uniforms, however from what I saw in the latest video it seems a little unrealistic so far. In the video he shoots the guy and steals the uniform....what about all the blood and bullet holes?

I like the idea of stealing uniforms but I think I should be forced to do it with a cleaner kill than that, eg a knife to the throat, dart, poison, whatever but not something thats going to ruin the uniform.

[b101_uk 10]

I love the idea of using enemy uniforms, however from what I saw in the latest video it seems a little unrealistic so far. In the video he shoots the guy and steals the uniform....what about all the blood and bullet holes?

A close-range headshot from a silenced Walther PPK/P99 from a smartly dressed man in a tailored suit who drives a slick silver Aston Martin and likes his drinks “shaken not stirred�

[Chill xl 10]

wearing opposing forces uniform is one thing to not be detected as enemy, behaving like friendly should make the difference. Meaning, running around should atract attention, hanging out around vehicles, high value targets, etc should attract attention... Too much attention and you will be discovered / revealed as enemy.

Take the video for example, the guard in that tower thingy close the vehicle could have seen you around the boats. When "suddenly" the boats explode it should raise suspicion towards the player who was there, especially if you jump into a vehicle drive off without saying 'bye'.

Anyway, in short to be undetected one should act as "normal" as possible. Hopefully behavior will be take into account.

[Beagle 684]

You can't just enter or leave a military compound just by wearing a captured uniform, you need the according ID and movement command papers that ara all checked whenever you leave or enter, no matter if on foot or by vehicle. A typical guard team consist of 8 men with 2 men as over-night reeinforcement. A Military compound is not a boyscout camp where loitering around does not raise suspicion.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Beagle

[NeMeSiS 11]

wearing opposing forces uniform is one thing to not be detected as enemy, behaving like friendly should make the difference. Meaning, running around should atract attention, hanging out around vehicles, high value targets, etc should attract attention... Too much attention and you will be discovered / revealed as enemy.

Take the video for example, the guard in that tower thingy close the vehicle could have seen you around the boats. When "suddenly" the boats explode it should raise suspicion towards the player who was there, especially if you jump into a vehicle drive off without saying 'bye'.

Anyway, in short to be undetected one should act as "normal" as possible. Hopefully behavior will be take into account.

While i agree with you a full Hitman simulation may be a bit outside of the scope of the game. Though i would like to see it.

EDIT: May be better to leave it out if it stays like it is.

[b101_uk 10]

You can't just enter or leave a military compound just by wearing a captured uniform, you need the according ID and movement command papers that ara all checked whenever you leave or enter, no matter if on foot or by vehicle. A typical guard team consist of 8 men with 2 men as over-night reeinforcement. A Military compound is not a boyscout camp where loitering around does not raise suspicion.

Perhaps there should be some limitation on the effectiveness of enemy uniform vs. civilian clothes, i.e. the former being of use for a short-term before you inevitably get found out but do allow you to get into restricted places vs. Civilian clothes, which allow you much longer unfettered movement around the island BUT don’t get you into restricted enemy places.

Perhaps have some method of logging time in enemy uniform & civilian clothes which over time and in proximity of the enemy increases the overall effectiveness of you using enemy uniform or civilian clothes types.

If there is a story going on in the background of A3 perhaps incorporate a “forger†who will make you civilian ID papers and at a later point enemy military ID papers, in the case of the former civilian ID papers it would get you past road block/checkpoints or pass an ID challenge from enemy solder which at lower levels in civilian clothes without ID you would have to avoid, with the latter military ID papers you would have to have ID of someone other than in the unit you will be attacking which early on has got to be “harvested†ware as later on you get a much better forged military ID of XYZ rank which is enough to fool lower ranks of enemy but less effective on equal or higher rank enemy.

Likewise, if you are a lower rank and are ordered to do something by a higher rank enemy then you have to be seen to do it to avoid being found out before/wile slipping out of there view.

[EDcase 87]

You can't just enter or leave a military compound just by wearing a captured uniform, you need the according ID and movement command papers that ara all checked whenever you leave or enter, no matter if on foot or by vehicle. A typical guard team consist of 8 men with 2 men as over-night reeinforcement. A Military compound is not a boyscout camp where loitering around does not raise suspicion.

Yes, of course its a bit different in real life but after all this is just a game and is for fun not training....

My original post was to make it a bit more dangerous and exciting rather than just a simple swap of sides.

And of course if your side see you wearing enemy uniform or driving enemy vehicle they should treat you as enemy.

Perhaps there could be a radio option to declare yourself friendly.(which only comes up if you are in oposite uniform or enemy vehicle)

[PuFu 4600]

While i agree with you a full Hitman simulation may be a bit outside of the scope of the game. Though i would like to see it.

EDIT: May be better to leave it out if it stays like it is.

So you would prefer not having a feature at all if it doesn't fit your taste, that having it in in a form that could later be enhanced (bis or 3rd party)?

Am i the only one that finds that..dull?

[NeMeSiS 11]

So you would prefer not having a feature at all if it doesn't fit your taste, that having it in in a form that could later be enhanced (bis or 3rd party)?

Am i the only one that finds that..dull?

I am afraid that in its current state it will do more harm than good. Walking into an enemy base unchecked, and noone batting an eyelid after placing a satchel under the enemy commander and casually strolling out the base again is not something that actually enhances the game.

It can be in, but if it stays like its in the videos now then it should be disabled unless a mission editor adds it himself and changes a whole fucking lot about its inner workings.

[PuFu 4600]

I am afraid that in its current state it will do more harm than good. Walking into an enemy base unchecked, and noone batting an eyelid after placing a satchel under the enemy commander and casually strolling out the base again is not something that actually enhances the game.

It can be in, but if it stays like its in the videos now then it should be disabled unless a mission editor adds it himself and changes a whole fucking lot about its inner workings.

Firstly, i am most certain that the exchange uniform is something campaign related, and not a feature available by default in the editor.

Secondly, while everyone agrees that this is something that might enhance part of the gameplay, and that exchanging uniform needs to be more complex that shown (note that there are were no new animations available at gamescon). YES, if it is a deal breaker (as in available permanently as a default action0 i would rather not have it. But i am sure this is not the case

[RudyFaasse 10]

I thought using enemy uniforms is just a movie/ omg super 1337 speshul forcas thing :/.

I have never heard of a confirmed case of using an enemy uniform, propably why I thought its stupid...

They did it with the invasion of The Netherlands :( They captured some important bridges

But anyway I think the idea would be too much basic when it comes out.

So I say NO to the possibilty to steal uniform.

I am almost sure they won't add problems like blood,holes, clothes that wont fit etc.

And then the white skin is not realistic for an IRANIAN uniform. And when you even are possible to talk OPFOR language then you always will keep your NATO accent and most soldiers can't even speak OPFOR language

O and inreal you would not need to steal enemy uniform you would get it via via.

Like UNIFORM is in IRAN. It get smuggled to your country. Governement recieved it, send it to the army, the higher command send it to that specific squad and so on.

Edited September 12, 2011 by RudyFaasse

[Pyronick 21]

Usually disguises and equipment get smuggled in, with correct sizes and patches and stuff to get you where you must be.

This is practical if you want to move past patrols and stuff.

[Blackfox34 14]

I think there should be an option to default to certain players.

For example SF types are more prone to uniform changing. Why?

First they are the ones most likely doing the sneaking in and out. They also are better adapted to deal with Opfor close up by means of communications as many SOF are screen for language comp and devote sufficient training to learning the enemy in and out more so than the regular grunt. Also SOF operate in small teams where unit changing could work rather than a large infantry element (However, it would be badass if you were to manage to steal like 50 uniforms and got your whole team in there).

I think this is best set up with skill level etc. also maybe an AllowUnichanging.

As gay as it sounds there should be an SOF operator skillset, having this allows for better endurance, tactics, uniform changing etc. That way you can distinguish a tier above a 100% skilled grunt vs a 100% skilled SOF operator besides uniform distinctions.

Last note: why is every unusual feature always flamed as MW2 of BF fanboyage. These games are popular for a reason, and why they may exaggerate the truth they are still fun for a majority of us Milsimmers, however, just because something may seem arcadish doesn't mean it actually is. Stealth kills, uniform changing, water insertions, not something that happens OFTEN in real warfare and may not have more than a few applicable scenarios in game, but it is another tool at a soldiers disposal and he will use it when he needs it. It may seem hollywood, but its still based on real life. Just how its implemented and to the level its exaggerated is different between ARMA vs Call of Duty

[pathetic_berserker 4]

Why do people get so uptight about this stuff. I checked back in here half expecting to see lots of positive stuff about possibilites but its mostly 'BIS better get right or else'

Or else what?

Don't you see that its just a tool.

At the end of the day its up to mission makers to to provide missions that facilitate the ability to disguise and players to use it effectively.

Even if its as simple as a gear selection I cant see it as much of an issue if gear slots are limited. The possibility of TK'ing masquarade party may exist but I think the community will get over it pretty quick.

(Demanding cap back on) Would dearly love to see some gear animations. The function should allow for folks getting caught with thier pants down.

[mrcash2009 0]

You know for certain there will be new Arma3 user videos of farmers in there underpants running around with sheep *makes note for video ideas* :)

"Pant Wars" (trading & purchasing of pants) is another mission I have penned ready to make once it lands.

On topic ...

I think as long as there is something coded whereas - Friendly unit + Enemy Clothing = higher detection rate value than normal via Enemy AI based on x criteria

Criteria could be awareness of movement (running too much, and not staying in some formation style, erratic behaviour), maybe detection of gun type, IE you are wearing the clothes but have friendly weapon type that combination = higher detection value. A value attached to "Face" type? Face doesn't fit and all that :)

Its a tricky one though to balance I would imagine.

If its a case of "I have uniform and thus wont be detected unless I start shooting" it would be a bit too "simple" like a cloaking device :)

Point is there must be some type of drawback to this approach tactical wise, to know you might blend in but have something that can cock it all up without taking a shot is the main point.

Edited September 13, 2011 by mrcash2009

[EDcase 87]

A relatively simple set of rules could make it more interesting.

- Running will attract attention.

- Being too close to an enemy AI will attract his attention.

- Time near enemy units will attract attention on a relative scale to distance.

- ?Must have same weapon as enemy? (as well as changing uniform you MUST take his weapon)

So that means you will have a time limit when in an enemy environment but you are not allowed to run and you must choose your path carefully not to get too close to patrol etc.

You will not have an advantage of special weapons as you must use one of theirs. (A silenced pistol could be carried tho)

What happens when you attract attention is still up for debate. Should they attack straight away or confront you somehow (more complicated)

[Beagle 684]

All of this was already done in the hitman series years ago. It's stuff for hitmen and spys, not soldiers, not even SOF.

Disguise in enemy uniform is a no go in general, the same as the abuse of red cross and similar signs. Whats next? Painting red crosses all over armed APCs? wit a armed to the teeth squad in it?

I never realized that ArmA was so much about negelection of the articles of the geneve convention.

[mrcash2009 0]

It's stuff for hitmen and spys, not soldiers, not even SOF.

Its a feature for mission themes and mission makers and scenarios. It also introduces engine features to swap out and customise (for mission themes and mission makers and scenarios), its not all just about one theme fits all.

I think it breaks geneve convention for being able to control men using a mouse and team switching ability ;)

Edited September 13, 2011 by mrcash2009

[rye1 21]

Boohoo BIS added a cool feature. Use it as you wish. If not, then SO WHAT!

[Daniel 0]

There's a very good reason why features like this meet negative reactions on the boards. In my mind, it's because the AI aren't clever enough to deal with them, and so they feel like exploits.

I'm not concerned about bullet holes and blood on uniforms. I'm more concerned about how the guys you're supposed to be hood winking react when you're not following the established SOPs, or not joining in with the banter, or walking differently, or not staying at your post, etc.

I've used this example before, but same goes for FLIR. Okay, it's seen as a really cool and realistic feature, but is it not an exploit if the AI aren't aware of its capabilities and how to counter them?

[rübe 127]

I guess we can all agree, that we simply need to be able to configure* this feature on a per unit basis with scripting. And all shall be fine and possible; for example only one "spy" per side during a multiplayer match, hehe.

*By this I mean not only allow/disallow switching of uniforms. But also the option to restrict the possible uniform-pool (to the uniforms of ones side for example).

Though I still wonder, how enemies should react to such a disguised intruder (not recognized as such yet). And how this could be customized in a sexy, yet powerful way. There are different "zones" of security and familiarity, we should be able to easily model: top security no access (only authorized) zones. Absolutely don't care zones. And at least something in between.

A "hang out" zone could be pretty low regarding security, yet units would absolutely tend to walk up to you and try to speak to you a lot more frequently...

Guess this really cries for a highly configurable module.