When are the mod makers going to work together?

[PuFu 4591]

PuFu you come accross like you love the fact that getting all the great mods to install and play together properly is difficult and wouldn't want it any other way. Bizzare.

Far from my intention. In an utopian 2 clicks=addon maker scene, i would say, that's the way to go. It isn't.

As for being lazy, how about I have other stuff going on in my life unlike in the ArmA1 days when gaming was my only hobby.

Great, like a lot of others. Still today is simpler to work with some of the addons than it was with A1. Now, what you really want is what RailGunner said: one button - gimme the best collection of addons out there, but all those addons should be compatible with each other, even if they try to solve the same thing in different ways or visions...

Also note I actually made some sound mods for ArmA1 when it was first released so I'm not a n00b.

What does this have to do with the thread?

I still would prefer a combined mod package that would be so comprehensive and awesome that it would quickly be adopted by the majority of players and clans. Uniformity in mods is what is badly needed in this community.

I strongly dissagre for the reasons i already wrote.

I can see where your coming from, uniformity is probably what it needs. It would be great if someone could suggest a reasonable alternative, other than that, uniformity is certainly a reasonable suggestion…..

As suggested, uniformity, for a number of reason is unachievable.

‘Uniformity’ IMO in this instance ‘Mod’s working together based on some foundation’, ACE is a sort of foundation many mod makers are trying to build with ACE compatibility in mind.

Such as?

I might not be the best scripter or config lad out there, but i have been part of ACE, worked on some configs and scripts, but there were still things i wasn't even touching because someone else worked there and was the only person that knew how to do some things.

It has been said here that working together just won’t happen!

No one said that, on the contrary.

The fact that you don't see it written down in those forums for you to read doesn't mean it's not happening

Well that’s a shame because without doubt I think that the mod/addon makers on here are fantastic at what they do, and of course they do talk and contact one another, however you don’t have to physically work together to work together, if you get my drift…

Great to see you know to direct others to do their things...

When you build a building you don’t get 20 builders to put 20 different types of foundation down, better to work on the one sound foundation chosen by the builders coming together and discussing which and what would be the best foundation to build on…

There is a foundation already: it is called Arma2/OA

[rocket 9]

Uniformity? Big teams?

My two cents...What I would like to see more of is creativity. ArmA2 offers unprecedented ability to do extremely creative and different ideas far beyond what the core game offers, outside of simply pure squad-based mission combat. Indeed, it's my opinion OFP had more creativity in its selection of addons.

Integrating anything makes things very complex, increasing workload exponentially - which often means dropping features and reducing capability. I can appreciate people want to play with ACE2, but personally I don't use it and as an addon maker I make the addons for myself first - this has got to be fun after all - so I don't really consider such addons when I am releasing something.

I would prefer 20 different builders working on different things - they will come up with a much more creative solution that 20 builders trying to work on one thing. Remember, people do this for fun ... if they disagree they just end up leaving the team and the mod never gets released.

[HR4 Elite 10]

As suggested, uniformity, for a number of reason is unachievable.

My answer to that would be ‘Why’, but your not going to give an answer because frankly there’s no reason.

Such as?

I might not be the best scripter or config lad out there, but i have been part of ACE, worked on some configs and scripts, but there were still things i wasn't even touching because someone else worked there and was the only person that knew how to do some things.

Working together..

No one said that, on the contrary.

The fact that you don't see it written down in those forums for you to read doesn't mean it's not happening

Read the thread, its been said, quote: “it just ain’t going to happenâ€, not my words..

Great to see you know to direct others to do their things...

Old habits die hard...I had many people working together doing a whole raft of different tasks/jobs, one man doing what another “wouldn’t touch†to quote yourself, but when all the parts were brought together they formed a finished item that worked in harmony with each and every single part…because the job was done using ’Uniformity’. Very achievable IMHO..

There is a foundation already: it is called Arma2/OA

From your point of view your right, however, from my point of view Arma2 could be the ground the foundation is built on…

You have broken down my post and the OP's post, but have still not really said anything constructive..

Uniformity? Big teams?

My two cents...What I would like to see more of is creativity. ArmA2 offers unprecedented ability to do extremely creative and different ideas far beyond what the core game offers, outside of simply pure squad-based mission combat. Indeed, it's my opinion OFP had more creativity in its selection of addons.

Integrating anything makes things very complex, increasing workload exponentially - which often means dropping features and reducing capability. I can appreciate people want to play with ACE2, but personally I don't use it and as an addon maker I make the addons for myself first - this has got to be fun after all - so I don't really consider such addons when I am releasing something.

I would prefer 20 different builders working on different things - they will come up with a much more creative solution that 20 builders trying to work on one thing. Remember, people do this for fun ... if they disagree they just end up leaving the team and the mod never gets released.

I agree with some of what you say, other than you misunderstood my analogy regards the builders.

Its only a thread that the OP wanted aired, he mentioned 'Uniformity' but if it never happens then it never happens. But to air the idea and get shot down as was the case to begin with, without any reasons why, is a waste of time...

He only aired a view...

.

[rocket 9]

I suppose, what I am trying to point out - is that I am here for my own reasons. Gnat is here for his, PuFu is here for his. We each have our own reasons for developing our addons and those reasons is as different as the addons their authors make.

It's admirable to suggest partnership and agreeing to have foundations; platforms on which people build. I can see what you are getting at and it would sound great, but it misses the very foundation of why I am here. I am here because I can build what I want to. When I worked in the game industry, I could not. I quit because it wasn't fun. So now... I just build stuff because I like building stuff.

The minute you start making a project like work, trying to get people together - they will just bail. The only thing that can keep people together in such a situation is a compelling motivational force and common belief/direction, which is what ACE got/had. But some of the most talented addon developers and designers here, are here for the freedom that it provides. What you are proposing is great, I just want to point the above out because I don't think many people realise why people make addons.

They think I am here to make addons for people. I'm here because I like making stuff, and here, I can make stuff that I want and not because someone tells me too.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Rocket

[[frl]myke 14]

In fact, there is a lot of cooperation within this community and therefor in this very Forum. Just because addonmakers aren't in a team doesn't mean they work all for themselves.

From my point of view, i encountered myself a lot of coorporation, be it that i saw something interesting that could be useful for my work so i asked for help there or be it that i was asked to assist from other addonmakers.

This is what makes this community so great: cooperation without the need to team up if one doesn't want to.

So far i helped or received helped from several community members: RKSL Rock, NodUnit, Meatball311, wld427, JDog, Mandoble, Eble, EddyD, Klubargutan, just to name a few (no particular order and surely not complete, if you miss your name here i'm sorry, no offence intended).

So i look this as "my" team, knowing those people are there if i need help or assistance. Each of them has it's knowledge and depending of what i need i contact the respective person.

After all, it's the diversity that kept BIS games alive, not uniformity.

[STALKERGB 6]

Agree with what most people say here that addon makers are all here for our own reasons. To example myself, I have a relatively large interest in adding extra infantry content to the game but I'm less bothered about realism enhancements (because I'm massive noob!).

You could argue that what I have said suggests it would be great as part of a larger team if I did my bit while others do theirs but even so I'd need to edit what I've made to be compatible and if it's something I have no interest in I'm far less likely to want to do it.

Also, from my experience of it anyway, working in larger teams is often a too bigger commitment in of itself, if people don't have the time they can end up holding up the whole mod.

As for foundations, it's so subjective as to what would make a "good" foundation, some people like bits of this and bits of that but you'd find it hard to agree on one thing.

And again, as others have said, there is a huge amount of co-operation on these forums.

[JdB 151]

My answer to that would be ‘Why’' date=' but your not going to give an answer because frankly there’s no reason.

[/quote']

I've removed the name of the author of the quote since my reply is not meant against anyone specifically, this question has been asked many times in one form or another.

Why no uniformity? All using the same foundation is impossible since the foundation with which addonmakers create their mod is subjective. I'll explain.

There are two reasons in my opinion why uniformity is impossible, different tastes and technical limitations.

Different tastes, of the addonmaker and of the fans.

-What subject (/era) are you interested in? Roman Empire? Napoleonic? Civil War? WW2? Modern day? Sci-fi? world wars? bush wars? insurgency?

Because you like modern stuff (for example) doesn't mean I do, doesn't mean PuFu does, or anyone else. In order to achieve "uniformity", the mods would all have to be combined into one supermod that covers all of the mod subjects and eras that has ever been done for ArmA(2), which is impossible because of the limitations of the engine, and additionally it would annoy people because their work isn't being used, but the version by someone else of the same addon is being used instead, or the fans who prefer the version that isn't being used.

-Where do you draw the line between realism and gameplay?

What you think is right is subjective, and will be different for every other person in the community. ACE has it's share of the community, PR will have it's own share as well, and that's not counting the mods that portray different subjects and eras. They all have their share of fans because no single mod is to everyone's liking. If you compile a mod that is designed for how you want to play, that will be your vision, not everyone elses. Some people will hate realistic aspects, some will hate arcade aspects and most will hate bits of both in the supermod. That is why uniformity is impossible, because the community itself is not uniform, we all like something different, that broad Armaverse of creativity is the strength of the community, not it's weakness. Thinking all mods should be made compatible to each other, or to the one mod that you happen to prefer is just arrogant and disrespectful towards the people that have worked long and hard, for their own enjoyment.

If you give a hundred people a menu of 25 ingredients with which they want the chef to prepare their dinner, they will all come up with something different.

Technical limitations.

Try placing tanks from a WW2 mod into your modern scenario against modern tanks in a mod, let's say ACE2. You'll notice that they aren't balanced to each other, the WW2 tanks are "stronger" in comparison than they would be in real life. That's because if they were balanced to modern tanks of either ArmA2 or ACE2, a hand grenade or two would be enough to blow them up. BIS has created each ArmA game with strictly it's own requirements in mind, using their storyline, their equipment, their subject etc. They never aimed to create a sandbox that can fulfill all of the community's needs and wished at the same time. As such, the engine is really only capable of simulating one era of warfare at the same time, accurately simulating technical made advances more than a few decades apart will be hard to balance, those with hundred of years between them impossible.

And then there are other issues, version control, updating, permissions and author rights.

Making mods compatible with each other sounds wonderful, but once one mod is updated, all other mods would have to update their mod as well to maintain compatibility. Loads of additional work, and loads of unwanted compromises, which is easy to ask for when most time the people asking for it are sitting on the fence waiting for stuff to be done by others. There is plenty of cooperation, often by mods that share a common interest. It's not in any addonmaker's interest to make all mods work together, they have enough work to do as it is.

Edited September 8, 2011 by JdB

[Nikos85 10]

I think it would be great if Bis held some sort of competition to get the best community made units/vehicles in game via a patch.

[PuFu 4591]

I think it would be great if Bis held some sort of competition to get the best community made units/vehicles in game via a patch.

No, it wouldn't...not the way you mean it anyways. If ask for such a thing you are clearly missing a larger picture.

Although BIS has worked continues to do it with community members for different content that is available in a final version (it happened for A2, for OA and is already happening for A3), i am really against any sort of interference coming from bis regarding how and what can be made into the game...

[HR4 Elite 10]

I appreciate intelligent reasons not just sound-bites, lets leave that to the politicians. I don't know about the OP but I certainly think views I may have had myself have been answered, I know I have a better understanding now.

I probably use a mod from all the mod makers in this thread one way or another, and with not being able to make mods myself I find it quite inspiring that mod makers can turn a great war sim/game into The War Sim/Game to own.. so thanks very much for that..

I appreciate all your great skills & work, a lot of it may initially be for your own satisfaction, but it gives a great deal of satisfaction to others that perhaps can’t do it themselves...

Ta...

.

[dysta 10]

If modding have a "standard" behind for the game developer, nobody will gonna make any of it even the modding community is free.

[hellfire257 3]

They do work together, just not on the same project. Not everyone shares common ground or interest.

[[aps]gnat 28]

.... is that I am here for my own reasons. Gnat is here for his, PuFu is here for his. We each have our own reasons for developing our addons and those reasons is as different as the addons their authors make.

Yes, thats right.

It's admirable to suggest partnership and agreeing to have foundations; platforms on which people build. I can see what you are getting at and it would sound great, but it misses the very foundation of why I am here. I am here because I can build what I want to.

Agree.

The minute you start making a project like work, trying to get people together - they will just bail.

Yes, big project are very tough ..... theres a very LOOOONG list of dead mods that never made it to OFP/ArmA/ArmA2

And "Uniformity"?

Whats the point of having a HUGE sandbox game with great creative tools if everyone makes the same fucking thing or only contributes to 1 "system"!? really .....

Myke;2019195']

After all' date=' it's the diversity that kept BIS games alive, not uniformity.[/quote']

Exactly.

[Dead3yez 0]

when are the mod makers going to work together?

Edited September 13, 2011 by Dead3yez

[kklownboy 43]

"when are the mod makers going to work together? "

When we let them out of their cage.

[R0adki11 3945]

"when are the mod makers going to work together? "

When we let them out of their cage.

I dont understand why you decide to write this?

[Gunter Severloh 3952]

When we let them out of their cage.

Cant get out of a cage if you never been in one.

Uniformity would be a cage for a modmaker. Being free, and artisitic if you will using one's own skill and better yet time,

to create something it would be essential a modder be free to express themselves.

Creative genius's do best when not expected to conform, this is why we see such amazing addons/mods/scripts and

many other things to big and small to mention. Just let them do their thing.

Like i said in a previous post of mine, not like you can go and take 2 or more mods your self test them and make them

compatible and have what your looking for. Dont complain if your not willing to put the effort forth to make

the game how you want to play it, thats what I did.

I seen all the addons and mods and had this idea, "what if someone (me it ended up being ;)) took all these great

addons and mods and put them all into one!?" Well thats what I did.

Now I could have left it at that idea or that inspiration and moved on but i couldn't handle waiting around and wondering if.... someone

were going to do it, and since Arma1 when I had this idea I had created 3 versions of this mod for every game, now I suppose

I'm a "modder" now. Anyways the point being, if you have a great idea, and or are inspired by something you like or dislike

in the game then you should follow your gut and do it.

theres plenty of great modders and people that can turn on the light for you, as well as many references, and information available,

theres nothing that you cannot do in this game, and no matter what you decide to make there is some person/s out there that

would love to try, and play with your mod script or whatever you decide to make.

if your not a creater of things, then support them.

Next to BIS, if it weren't for the modders, and the community that submits their creations, this forum wouldn't be as big as it is.

Say thank you to mr. Editor! :notworthy:and the tools BIS gave us.

[dm 9]

"when are the mod makers going to work together? "

When we let them out of their cage.

Actually, a more accurate description would be:

"When we put them IN a cage (thereby forcing them to work together)"

Until then, mod makers will continue to exercise their free will (which is nice)

[R0adki11 3945]

Until then, mod makers will continue to exercise their free will (which is nice)

Which is when we find the best and interesting addons developed and released

[max power 21]

Actually, a more accurate description would be:

"When we put them IN a cage (thereby forcing them to work together)"

Until then, mod makers will continue to exercise their free will (which is nice)

tenchars of +1

[kklownboy 43]

I dont understand why you decide to write this?

for the humor. But it is also a metaphor or two. Guess its a North American thing, Euro folk not understand. But more to the point, its a jab at the OP....

[Nikos85 10]

No, it wouldn't...not the way you mean it anyways. If ask for such a thing you are clearly missing a larger picture.

Although BIS has worked continues to do it with community members for different content that is available in a final version (it happened for A2, for OA and is already happening for A3), i am really against any sort of interference coming from bis regarding how and what can be made into the game...

whats with being so rude "not the way you mean it" -okay then , and "interference" -they're not a goverment or some repressive regime. sounds like you need a break pal

[PuFu 4591]

whats with being so rude "not the way you mean it" -okay then , and "interference" -they're not a goverment or some repressive regime. sounds like you need a break pal

No i am not government or repressive regime. I don't know why you think i came as rude. I guess it's just because i disagree with you, which is infantile.

But i'll say this again: you obviously know little of what means getting community content in a game via a patch:

1. A lot of community made addons take content from other commercial products or sources where copyright infringements could arise (sounds for instance, but not exclusive) in the case an entity such as BIS would get those in another commercial product.

2. From a legal POV, the IPs would need to be given/ceased from one party to another. While this is not complicated, it might create certain problems (even in the situation where there would be a competition for this very reason). You forget about original creators actually agreeing with this very thing (see Valve and TF2 content, that was designed specifically for the purpose of getting this stuff in game).

3. BIS taking a stance towards who is better might not be the best thing to do. Just take a look over the bad blood between some parties over the Community Awards the last couple of years.

and many more things that you, from a consumer POV, would have never thought about and didn't when you posted "it would be great if BIS held a competition"

[[aps]gnat 28]

Nice post PuFu ..... very true.

[Nikos85 10]

No i am not government or repressive regime. I don't know why you think i came as rude. I guess it's just because i disagree with you, which is infantile.

But i'll say this again: you obviously know little of what means getting community content in a game via a patch:

1. A lot of community made addons take content from other commercial products or sources where copyright infringements could arise (sounds for instance, but not exclusive) in the case an entity such as BIS would get those in another commercial product.

2. From a legal POV, the IPs would need to be given/ceased from one party to another. While this is not complicated, it might create certain problems (even in the situation where there would be a competition for this very reason). You forget about original creators actually agreeing with this very thing (see Valve and TF2 content, that was designed specifically for the purpose of getting this stuff in game).

3. BIS taking a stance towards who is better might not be the best thing to do. Just take a look over the bad blood between some parties over the Community Awards the last couple of years.

and many more things that you, from a consumer POV, would have never thought about and didn't when you posted "it would be great if BIS held a competition"

Thanks for clearing it up for me your right obviously I dont know what you know and have now told me,

Your post came across as a bit dismissive but maybe I sould've said "why not?" instead of "it'd be great". I was just speaking from the perspective of someone that plays the game and admires the work addon makers put in to the point where I as a consumer felt some of things people have made are of such high quality they deserved to be in vanilla game, forgive me for not initially understanding the (mainly very human) complexities involved and should've looked into it more. :(