POLL: leaning system.

[metalcraze 290]

What are you on about? Facing a smallwall while looking down your iron sights I'd like to be able to pop over and use as cover. First off, it only works if you are dead tight against it and there is a slight delay. I see no good reason you'd want to stay facing point blank against inanimate object for any length of time and either way the positives outweighs the negatives.

A good reason is that I want to control my soldier.

I want to pop up from behind that small wall on my on and move down on my own, not when the game forces me to.

RO2 does it extremely wrong.

Rainbow Six games (the good ones, not the new ones obviously) do it right.

eh?

For your interest

to be honest nothing stop you from jumping, farting, insulting your officiers,

and even....ah seriusly do i have to give you a response? must be kidding me.

lol.

But would jumping, farting, insulting your officers affect the gameplay in a silly way?

Leaning whenever I want won't.

The last thing I want is stupid console gameplay limitations where I have to seek special sweetspots to do something I can do whenever I want now.

Edited September 6, 2011 by metalcraze

[froggyluv 2136]

A good reason is that I want to control my soldier.

I want to pop up from behind that small wall on my on and move down on my own, not when the game forces me to.

RO2 does it extremely wrong.

Rainbow Six games (the good ones, not the new ones obviously) do it right.

.

Well to each his own I guess. Pressing into a wall and expecting to rise over it when in irons isn't disruptive to me in the least and I find RO2 to be one of the best in terms of quick, fluid movements that aint arcadey nor stiff.

[Steakslim 1]

There are instances where you are not pressed up against a wall, but near enough to where you still need to look over or around any edge to shoot. Hense the freedom Metalcraze referes to.

[dayglow 2]

I hope they expand lean to be able to peer over an obstacle, especially with trackir. R6 Raven Shield had a free look button. When it was depressed mouse movement side to side and up and down produced smooth analog leaning and peering and crouching.

[rye1 21]

I believe there should be two types of leaning: while moving and not. Not should be a slow and deliberate action, there to expose the minimal amount of yourself while getting eyes on the enemy and engaging. This means somewhat pieing the corner, having only part of the face, shoulder and weapon exposed.

Moving while leaning should not be 'slowed' as much as just standing (or moving slowly if that would be more user friendly), I think as of now it slows you down too much while moving in a specific direction.

But anyhow, they seem to be on a weird angle for me while leaning because they push all their body out to get around a corner exposing more of themself than they should. This means you have to go back and keep leaning and trying to find the best position for you depending on corner and angle, direction of where you want to engage.

What should happen is they stay relatively stable like in a boxing or martial arts stance, being more upright and slowly begin to lean exposing less of themself for a quick peek or pop-shot.

Maybe if you had more control over it, say pausing, that would improve it. Say if you look down your sights you pause the lean allowing you to stay in that position. Or if you let go of a key you pause. I don't know, if it was in game and I could test these theories then it would be better, not everything sounds or looks good on paper but practically may be the best choice.

PR has opened up more TvT gamemodes where new elements of play are really beginning to count more than CO-OP, and some flaws are certainly popping up. This is one.

Just some thoughts...

H73bn6n65K8

(6:21) (One for the Czech's, hehe; quick lean to clear the hard corner)

[-FHA-Dynamo 0]

lYGcB1acawM

something like this could be a good solution too, but in this case we should turn off the 3d. as you can see you can hide behind the trench and at the same time shooting the enemies with accuracy.

---------- Post added at 11:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

unfortunately i cant find a video showing this feature. just open your game

go on the editor and start press QEQEQEQEQE. you'll understand what i mean;)

... blinding fire.. no thanks, this is not a Hollywood shooter, much less a paint ball simulator.. shooting over objects a la Congo guerrilla fighter style just doesn't work. especially in first person. the only parts of that video which were ok, was when the guy was on his side shooting, when he did the little running leap over the sand bags and when creeping up above the sandbags to shoot. keep that other arcadish crap away from my ArmA3!

[rye1 21]

Blind firing isn't applicable? It's applicable in Arma if used correctly. If you look at some fighting in Grozny, Fallujah or similar urban warfare scenarios you shall see blind firing used by both sides. It's a good idea for Arma though I don't know how they'd implement it... keys and all.

The prone on his side was awesome, great for in an urban setting shooting under vehicles and whatever other obstacle you come against.

[SWAT_BigBear 0]

No "movement modes" please. This isn't a console game. It's fine how it is, and if you want gradual lean just get TrackIR.

^this^ is my thoughts also.

[4 IN 1 0]

Blind firing isn't applicable? It's applicable in Arma if used correctly. If you look at some fighting in Grozny, Fallujah or similar urban warfare scenarios you shall see blind firing used by both sides. It's a good idea for Arma though I don't know how they'd implement it... keys and all.

The prone on his side was awesome, great for in an urban setting shooting under vehicles and whatever other obstacle you come against.

I don't see any of those firearm training class teach you to do that, and they all tell people to make every rounds count, and almost all of them teach people how to reduce exposure while aiming down sights, and most of them tell people to be aware of muzzle clearance and the way to bypass them.....remember: suppressive fire/covering fire =\= blind firing

[rye1 21]

Don't limit your choices. But if it's better for you to not then do so. In Arma it's applicable, it's used in reality sometimes. Other than that I don't care about training classes, there's pro's and con's to everything.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

^ True but not every character in Arma is a higly trained soldier and experience shows us that even the well trained ones break rules occasionaly.

I dont think its a good idea to get too caught up on only simulating the textbooks. Gets too boring for a game.

At any rate I'd go with using TrackIR or FacetrackNoIR

Damn got Ninj'd

[metalcraze 290]

Blind firing isn't applicable? It's applicable in Arma if used correctly.

No it isn't. It will turn ArmA into some ridiculous Gears of War which Smookie's pack does (and it must be used only in 3rd person, otherwise you can't see anything from those hollywood positions - just like IRL)

If you look at some fighting in Grozny, Fallujah or similar urban warfare scenarios you shall see blind firing used by both sides.

Present me the videos of blind firing there like in all the modern hollywood console shooters which Smookie aims at.

I don't see any of those firearm training class teach you to do that, and they all tell people to make every rounds count, and almost all of them teach people how to reduce exposure while aiming down sights, and most of them tell people to be aware of muzzle clearance and the way to bypass them.....remember: suppressive fire/covering fire =\= blind firing

I think the problem is that people want Hollywood Shooting 101 which looks laughable and ridiculous since you can't hit anything (but for them it maybe looks good I don't know) - not the "boring" realism which is much more effective for some reason

Edited September 7, 2011 by metalcraze

[4 IN 1 0]

Present me the videos of blind firing there like in all the modern hollywood console shooters which Smookie aims at.

Search youtube for "Libyan rebel fighters":p

[jw custom 56]

Present me the videos of blind firing there like in all the modern hollywood console shooters which Smookie aims at.

I did see a fallujah video where a few soldiers were blind firing... until a sergeant scream "LOOK WHERE YOU ARE SHOOTING DAMMIT" or something like that :p

[dmarkwick 261]

Undisciplined soldiers do this blindfiring all the time. It has a place in ArmA IMO, as part of the discipline thing I mentioned somewhere else.

[*LK1* 10]

I hope they expand lean to be able to peer over an obstacle, especially with trackir. R6 Raven Shield had a free look button. When it was depressed mouse movement side to side and up and down produced smooth analog leaning and peering and crouching.

ye it was a good way to implement the leaning s. if you remove the opportunity to move while you still in that pose it's the best solution. hidden and dangerous style is the best. right now we have just a dumb arcadish leaning system. better than nothing of course but... meh :j:

Edited September 7, 2011 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[-=seany=- 5]

I have never seen that Blind Fire anim vid before, but that looks really good. I would love if the AI did this to me when I was fighting them, he he

Undisciplined soldiers do this blindfiring all the time. It has a place in ArmA IMO, as part of the discipline thing I mentioned somewhere else.

I agree with this too ^. Saying that it has no place in Arma, or that it will make it and arcade shooter is silly. I have seen this method used a whole lot in the Libyan conflict videos.

Also, "proper" armies don't use it, because it obviously has negatives. These negatives should be the same reason why you might not want to use it in Arma either. Eg; waste ammo, give your position away, hit civilians etc. A lack of theses things is what would make it "arcade". In the end it is down to the fighter and the situation they are in as to whether they think it's a good tactic to use.

As to the main topic,I agree the animations could be cleaned up, but its' functionality is fine. You should be able to move while leaning, and gradual lean is a feature that can be used with TrackIR (very nice it is too)

[froggyluv 2136]

I agree with this too ^. Saying that it has no place in Arma, or that it will make it and arcade shooter is silly. I have seen this method used a whole lot in the Libyan conflict videos.

Also saw a lot of that on CNN's Libyan coverage.

Would be nice to see more variation anyways (between factions; skill level) so soldiers don't look like clones -thats gamey.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I have never seen that Blind Fire anim vid before, but that looks really good. I would love if the AI did this to me when I was fighting them, he he

Well, sometimes it feels like blind fire when they are aiming :D

[Tonci87 163]

Blind fire is often used in CQB, especially in room to room fighting. What would you do if there are possibly enemys in the room you want to enter? Throw a grenade or blindfire into it, because just walking in would be a very bad idea.

[rye1 21]

It's more of a defensive action than an offensive action and a last resort more than the standard procedure. I don't think we'll see it in Arma.

@metalcraze.. youtube it. Type in Grozny or Fallujah. Watch a few 10 minute videos.

Libyan Rebels use it as an offensive action which gets minimal, if any, results. They also use it in an environment it may be useless like in open ground. And we're not always talking 'experienced, trained soldiers' in Arma but guerrillas and militia factions. In a CQB environment say you have been compromised and the area you are at is getting engaged, though it would be standard procedure to expose less of your body to engage you'd probably get it torn away so it's not always applicable; street fighting is corner to corner and if the corner you occupy is being engaged and an assault on that position taking place you'd at least want to slow it or bug out, it all depends on situation. In a room or hallway, linear space that you can blind fire into likely areas predesignated while staying in cover and exposing a hand or half an arm if anything, you're more likely to hit, though blindfiring isn't made for accuracy or being effective compared to other procedures. The world is round... and everything has pro's and con's. Spray and pray =). I mean imagine it with a bizon in a small area or even a room hehe. Then imagine not only a human player doing it but an untrained AI unit, that would be fun.

But consider the leaning seen in Arma exposing most of the body just to get it shot. I'd rather get into an environment that can offer me better chances while using this tactic, if I was going to, then use it as effectively as possible. Think of it's pro's and con's, it's main pro is that you don't expose yourself, and there are plenty of times where you might want to consider that. If I was playing as OPFOR I'd blind fire just for fun! :D

Edited September 8, 2011 by Rye

[VampyricTyrant 10]

they can improve both: movements&stance and leaning.

+1 100%

Since in ArmA2 there are no wallbangs plus you can walk and at the same time shoot straight, unlike classic FPS shooters where the crosshair "opens" you can just walk out of cover shoot and hide.

The only thing that should change is throwing frags while leaning.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Been thinking about it for a while, but finally landed on "keep the current one". True, TrackIR people get a slight advantage, but how real is this advantage? I don't have a problem with the used lean animation speeds, other animations deserve more attention. If it's bothersome, just have a laugh about it, just like we do for weapon down looking up while walking in a crouched position. Utterly hilarious, but we all know it's just a result of the animation system. Also, if I lean out and get shot at in real life, I'm pretty sure I would be able to lean back again at amazing speed. And lastly, I never felt that "lack of leaning controls and accuracy" have ever killed me. No need to further complex the controls for something this (imo) insignificant.

[5LEvEN 11]

Leaning not important? WOW! I have just one question for you. Do you even use cover? Leaning is very important. I use it on 95% of the corners I take. And I know for a fact that REAL soldiers also LEAN out of cover.

[-=seany=- 5]

True, TrackIR people get a slight advantage, but how real is this advantage?

Ya , it isn't really. Most of the time I do it just beacuse I can ( you know, standing around an ammo box doing silly anims poses/"dancing" while we are bored :) ), never really found it useful in combat, just a nice feature you can use.. I'm mean the difference between a full lean and a partial lean is bugger all.