Community Feedback Thread - TOH:CP

[icebreakr 3139]

Not to be missed by BIF:

Review of TOH: Preview by a pilot:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=121292

[Daniel 0]

Okay, i've just read the advice on remapping the thrust and brake to analogue. Thrust is really responsive now, i'm on the way to mastering mouse and keyboard flight.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Well, I finally got the balls to get the dust off my old Logitech Sidewinder stick (the amount of dust suggested it was gone forever from suffocation, but lo and behold - it worked) and CH Pedals to try this out in its full glory. I figured the joystick would feel more natural than CH Yoke and CH Twin Throttles :p And it's the first time ever I use a stick in Arma.

Had a couple of crashes trying to setup the controls, and the non responsive collective issue was found in the analoge brake setting. First flight after that - takeoff, long flight, and landing, without crashing or using auto trim. Not pretty, not by a long shot, and the room stunk of sweat - I was exhausted when I finally touched down :D

After that, a few crashes as I got overconfident saying this was easy - it wasn't. Had a few successful flights since that. It appears to be fully possible to become a good pilot with practice, as long as you have the equipment - stick with good movement (mine feels a bit insufficient but it might be only the curves that are incorrect and I cannot set) and pedals. I can't even imagine a twister based stick be good enough for the precise inputs needed.

1) Not impossible to fly using only mouse and keyboard without autotrim, but will require some practice.

2) Forget not using autotrim if you don't have pedals (or is able to use a twist stick with success) and analogue collective control. I found no way to get control without over or under compensating using a keyboard only. Did others?

Requests:

1) Some kind of zoom and zoom reset control and also default/preferred FOV value. I.e. gradual zoom on + and - keys, with a reset to default FOV on the * key. Or mappable to controller so you hold a controller qualifier button while using the throttle (typically mapped to collective).

2) Default analogue throttle and analogue brakes should be mapped by default to the sticks throttle, unless an actual collective device is detected. I get the feeling many don't get the brake mapping and only get "half the response".

3) Let there always be an option in the settings that enables the current Engine On (debug) action. It will be welcome to the new pilots trying to learn to fly even in the finished product.

[OMAC 254]

I'm playing the preview (THANK YOU, BIS!) with OA 1.59 + 82128 beta using keyboard and mouse.

I cannot find a manual or boot camp, so I assume we are to guess at the controls.

I was able to successfully complete the flight path (albeit with broken rotors upon landing)! Yahoo. Now I can't land at all.

First, questions.

1) What are the advantages of having auto-trim off?

2) What does Manual trim set/release do, and how do I use them?

3) Is there a hud showing yaw, pitch, etc.? I see only the transparent overlay map which has no hud.

4) Will some helis have huds and others not?

5) Is TKOH meant to played optimally with a keyboard and mouse, or just a joystick?

6) What is Engine off (debug)?

Comments:

* landing (at least on the mountain top) is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY too hard (even with auto trim on and in autohover mode). The sensitivities of the keyboard buttons are off and have to be tweaked and play tested EXTENSIVELY to make this game fun for a large audience.

* Much of the problems have to do with the sensitivity of the Q/Z thrust buttons, and to a lesser extent those of the X/C yaw buttons. The success of the entire game rides on how these buttons work. X/C are NOWHERE NEAR sensitive enough - I have to hold them down for 10 seconds just to rotate 90 degrees. Q/Z are WAY TOO SENSITIVE - hold them for a second or two and you're moving up/down uncontrollably fast. The controls in A2/OA are much easier to get a handle on, and are just sensitive enough to make flying helis incredibly fun. I assume that auto trim is always on in A2/OA.

* The heli seems way too light and blows over (rolls) WAY too easily, especially on landing. I know wind is a big factor, but there is no wind direction/speed indicator, so it is very difficult to compensate for.

* All too often, hovering at 1 m above the ground, speed <1, I tap Z, touch down, roll over, and blow up. NOT FUN.

Edited June 26, 2011 by OMAC

[celery 8]

Wind doesn't seem to have very much effect on the chopper. I set wind to 100 meters per second and could fly the helicopter fine.

[krazikilla 5]

I like it :)

Here my first tryes to fly the scenario mission.

Landing is a bit more complicated then in ArmA though, have to get a feeling for it.

[Daniel 0]

I'm playing the preview (THANK YOU, BIS!) with OA 1.59 + 82128 beta using keyboard and mouse...

* The heli seems way too light and blows over (rolls) WAY too easily, especially on landing. I know wind is a big factor, but there is no wind direction/speed indicator, so it is very difficult to compensate for.

* All too often, hovering at 1 m above the ground, speed <1, I tap Z, touch down, roll over, and blow up. NOT FUN.

Make sure you keep a hand on that mouse, use it for constant gentle corrections and use your keyboard for the bigger, more predictable moves. Make sure you've remapped your throttle and break keys too.

I can basically fly as I would in regular Arma 2 with just mouse and keyboard and auto-trim enabled. I can land accurately on the Khe Sanh anyway.

I can just about take off, circle once, and land again in roughly the same spot with Auto-Trim disabled, only just though.

[OMAC 254]

Thanks, Dan. Why should I remap throttle (Q/Z)? I'm not using brake. Why is that not already mapped to a key? S key raises nose to slow down. What does brake do?

[Daniel 0]

As it is now, Q and Z are mapped to Increase thrust and Decrease thrust respectively. Change these to Q = Thrust (analogue) and Z = Brake (analogue). That way you have digital control over your throttle; you hold Q for maximum collective and Z for minimum. Letting go knocks it to 50%. So you have to hold Q down OFP style for maximum speed. You get used to it though and start doing it instinctively. You don't have to worry about how much throttle you have at any point and you get instant response.

Note, any advice I give is purely for mouse and keyboard players. I intend to get proper peripherals myself once TakOH is released but till then i'll keep testing the previews this way.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Daniel

[CarlGustaffa 4]

First, questions.

I'll have a go, but I'm no expert.

1) What are the advantages of having auto-trim off?

More realistic? Auto trim makes it easier as it's constantly (I'm guessing, but it appears so) adjusting trim so you don't have to apply forces to the controls.

2) What does Manual trim set/release do, and how do I use them?

I guess similar as an aircraft. Setting trim removes the need to apply pressure to the controls for a given part of the flight. Takeoff and landing require different forces applied. Like the rudder trim on an aircraft. During takeoff you can set it a bit to the side so you don't have to apply constant pressure on the pedals, but is more central oriented. As you pick up speed after takeoff, you center the rudder trim. I've never piloted a helicopter though, so maybe a bunch of wheels are too complicated to operate and you instead just "center the controls"? Not sure.

3) Is there a hud showing yaw, pitch, etc.? I see only the transparent overlay map which has no hud.

Right control h does it for me. It's not realistic, but as the real helicopter pilot said, it could be seen as a visual indicator for what goes on in the inner ear. May I suggest for future that when flying IMC, this one fades away and you have to rely on instruments? Without visual reference, the inner ear is not to be trusted (resulted in many tragic accidents).

4) Will some helis have huds and others not?

Guessing all will have this kind of HUD.

5) Is TKOH meant to played optimally with a keyboard and mouse, or just a joystick?

I had huge problems with mouse and keyboard, so I'm guessing joystick for cyclic and collective (assuming power irrelevance) and pedals is pretty much required at least without auto trim.

6) What is Engine off (debug)?

The only way (I know of) to turn off the engine. :)

Comments:

* landing (at least on the mountain top) is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY too hard (even with auto trim on and in autohover mode). The sensitivities of the keyboard buttons are off and have to be tweaked and play tested EXTENSIVELY to make this game fun for a large audience.

This is a simulator, compared to Arma which is a game (at least wrt helicopter flying). It's not meant for a large audience, but for those wanting a realistic flying experience. Fly in Arma if this is too difficult. Ask

guy if real flying is easy ;) Oh, and we are doing the testing, or at least partly.

* Much of the problems have to do with the sensitivity of the Q/Z thrust buttons, and to a lesser extent those of the X/C yaw buttons. The success of the entire game rides on how these buttons work. X/C are NO WHERE NEAR sensitive enough - I have to hold them down for 10 seconds just to rotate 90 degrees. Q/Z are WAY TOO SENSITIVE - hold them for a second or two and you're moving up/down uncontrollably fast. The controls in A2/OA are much easier to get a handle on, and are just sensitive enough to make flying helis incredibly fun. I assume that auto trim is always on in A2/OA.

As I said earlier, I had serious control issues with keyboard. With the small corrections needed, sometimes slowly done, sometimes more swiftly, I cannot imagine realistic flying using keyboard input. Get better controls. I have no objections to flying being this hard, it feels right, I just need more practice. But at my current level, I have no idea how I would be able to do hoisting and complex lifts :D Uhm, Arma is auto everything - auto trim (actually, there is no trimming at all), auto cyclic, auto anti torque, and auto collective. :)

* The heli seems way too light and blows over (rolls) WAY too easily, especially on landing. I know wind is a big factor, but there is no wind direction/speed indicator, so it is very difficult to compensate for.

Actually I found wind to be of minor effect. The wind indicator is in the HUD (right control+h). Too light? I've been in light aircraft (having some forward momentum) where turbulence (wind over mountains) being so heavy I doubted we would be able to land - the runway was all over the windscreen. And then, some 5-10 meters over the ground, it just stopped. On way home, had to get to about 3-4000 feet before we could attempt reading a map. Bouncy? Oh yeah!

* All too often, hovering at 1 m above the ground, speed <1, I tap Z, touch down, roll over, and blow up. NOT FUN.

Imagine the fun when it stops being like that :p Also, invest time in

about the problems you have.

Here my first tryes to fly the scenario mission.

The (sideways) force is strong on this one :) Still, better than mine :D

Edited June 25, 2011 by CarlGustaffa

[Dimebug 10]

Hello,

My first post here, and for feedback.

Well, i must say that i've been involved in many flight simulators development as a beta tester or a little bit more but my main job in this computer area is mainly create flight sim controllers and software. I've piloted several kind of flying stuff in real life and practice RC helo and planes.

From this little introduction to Take On, i fell good improvement of the flight model but still have some frustration. The way axes are managed was good enough for Arma, but if the axes are still managed like this for a software closer to an helo simulator, there's a serious risk of waste of energy somewhere.

You can have the best flight model, the most realistic one, if you cannot control the helo the right way, you will never be able to take advantage of the quality of the flight model. It's also important for the customer to feel "at home" at the first launch of the software, axes must be easy to map.

Yet, the way axes are internally managed is totally different from all other software. For example, to control the rudder,

You need to map one direction of the rudder movement to "Pedal Left" and the other to "Pedal right".. that can be a way but in flight, the result is a totally non linear reaction to axes movement not very compatible with smooth control, probably due to internal deadzone to avoid conflict. The throttle analog mapping is a pain, most of the people will only get 50% of the range working.

The simple (and chosen by others simulators developers) is simply to have an axis binding to command (for example rudder). You map the controller axis on it and that's all. When the axis reach is minimal value, you're at maximum deflection pedal left, when at max value, you're fully pressing the right pedal. If you need to invert the axis direction, you simply check a box.

If you want to have a deadzone, there's an adjustable parameter in the axes fine tuning menu or you can do it with the controller programming software.

Today 99% of the controller of the market have an internal deadzone. Why add a deadzone on another one, this just create poor control sensations and hide your work.

This is the first steps to have a better idea of the improvement and quality of the flight envelope.

Add a real time view of the axis value coming from the joystick and the one used by the simulator after Take On internal tools fine tuning (deadzone, sensibility...) could be a great feature.

For the other point, i totally agree with Mr Vaaf_rup, i would also like to point the fact that the speed vector doesn't seems to work like a real one, at least, the way it moves is much too mechanical, too straight, it should be floating a little bit, more reactive to external parameters like wind ect... here it seems to be the direct (and too quick) result of calculation between inputs and speeds without any care of intertia. Small and Smooth corrections on controller are the keys of Helo piloting. Please makes thoses parameters easy to reach.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Dimebug

[OMAC 254]

THANK YOU, Carl and Dan! For fun, try landing without using brake, like I was - NOT FUN. Dan's thrust/brake remapping appears to be vital. Brake should be automatically mapped to a key, eh? I was just using A2 controls - a manual would help.

Only pussies need a stick! ;) Keyboard/mouse only for me! I have no plans to buy "better controls" just for TKOH.

Flying without autotrim is fun, and I did it up the valley. For landing, though, I wouldn't recommend it.

Do you guys think that playing with the A2/OA beta patch is a good idea? Could that cause problems? I'm getting a lot of CTDs ("Display driver nvlddmkm stopped responding and has successfully recovered"), but overall, performance is good (avg around 44 FPS).

What visibility and object visibility settings do you guys recommend?

I'll remap those keys now and give landing another shot. Without using brake, I've landed without crashing only 2 out of about 50 times - both of those times with broken rotors. I'm playing on Veteran, so hard landings are not allowed.

Thanks again for your help and advice.

Edit:

Carl,

Obviously, "Engine off (debug)" is NOT the "only way" to turn off the engines - what about "Engine off (auto)" that I have been using? What is the difference between the two?

Dan,

After remapping the keys as you suggested, I landed perfectly THE FIRST TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://tinyurl.com/6y46ghf

http://tinyurl.com/6gaql7b

So, thanks to Dan, I now am 110% impressed with TKOH, even when using only keyboard and mouse - can't wait for the real deal to come out.

Since Q and Z are now remapped, will I have to map them back to what they were for normal A2 operation?

I hope that the real TKOH will have controls and key mapping completely separate from that of other installed BIS games, so that key mapping in TKOH does not affect that of other games.

Edited June 25, 2011 by OMAC

[nikiller 18]

hi,

I have no knowledge in fly sim the only stuff I know to pilot are ofp/ArmA choppers/planes so I will not try to be technical about fly model. I'm just a user who want to have fun even if the learning curve is long.

I fly with mouse+keyboard.

First time I tried it, I died 2 times just at start, not even made 10meters before crashing miserably on the nearest hill/rock. With more practice I managed to fly to the end (with some trouble sometimes) but I crashed my copter while trying to land and stabilize at the same time. Manual piloting is hard but fully possible for a player used to fly chopper/plane in ArmA2. I tried again and finally landed a bit hard (but I landed :)) all this without respecting the altitude and the speed. I tried again and it was finally very funny trying to respect altitude and speed even if any error is paid cash. I'm more confortable now but you must be much more carefull than in ArmA you need all your attention.

promising for a preview.

cya.

Nikiller.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Nikiller

[derdoe 10]

First of all a big thank you to BIS for involving the community into the development process.

Feedback:

Flight model:

- very nice

- could be a bit harder to control a helicopter

- more power to tail rotor, agile helicopters can spin 360 degrees within 2-3 seconds

Overall impression:

- helicopter skids dont look very realistic

- proper engine control (flight - idle - ground) is missing, no option to turn engine off

Wishes:

- more system depth, e.g. fuel pumps have to be switched on for helicopter engine to work, turning pumps off makes the engine go out etc.

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

As it is now, Q and Z are mapped to Increase thrust and Decrease thrust respectively. Change these to Q = Thrust (analogue) and Z = Brake (analogue). That way you have digital control over your throttle; you hold Q for maximum collective and Z for minimum. Letting go knocks it to 50%. So you have to hold Q down OFP style for maximum speed. You get used to it though and start doing it instinctively. You don't have to worry about how much throttle you have at any point and you get instant response.

Note, any advice I give is purely for mouse and keyboard players. I intend to get proper peripherals myself once TakOH is released but till then i'll keep testing the previews this way.

this is advice i intend on trying out, thanks

[OMAC 254]

Another option for key mapping is to map the brake to a new key (like left Windows key), leave Q and Z as they are (+/- thrust), and map Throttle (analog) to Left Shift. I completed the flight successfully with that setup, and that way A2/OA mapping remains unaffected. I also like mouse 4 (near thumb) for zooming the view (optics).

Edited June 26, 2011 by OMAC

[nightsta1ker 10]

For reference, I am a low time commercial helicopter pilot.

I am taking in mind that this is a WIP. My impression of the flight dynamics was not great. I am still trying to tweak my controls so that sensitivity is right and such, but I found that there was a null zone in my controls that I could not get rid of. This made it very difficult to get the helicopter to do what I wanted. Helicopters are extremely sensitive. All the pilot must do is THINK about moving the cyclic and the helicopter will respond. Sensitivity was there outside of the null zone, I just didn't like the fact that I would need to move my controls an eighth of an inch before the helo would suddenly respond. This could be user error and any advice is welcome.

Torque induced yaw is a bit excessive. This could be reduced by a quarter to a half and still be realistic.

Translating tendency is there. Good. Not bad for in the hover, but the effects of this also diminish with foreward airspeed and I found that the tendency of the helicopter to roll was strong even in foreward flight. If this was supposed to be dissymmetry of lift, I would not bother simulating that unless the aircraft exceeds its VNE (Velocity Never Exceed) because the flapping tendency of the rotors counters dissymmetry of lift within it's normal operating airspeed range (also, if it is supposed to be dissymmetry of lift the helicopter is banking the wrong way).

Turbulence/Transverse Flow Effect: That turbulence I got after accelerating through 20 knots, was that supposed to simulate Transverse Flow (fore and aft dyssimetry of lift on the rotor system as part of it passes through Effective Translational Lift, causing a chattery vibration) or was this just turbulence? I encountered it several times at different airspeeds etc, but noticed it was ALWAYS present at about 20 knots. In any case, this turbulence is more irritating than realistic. It is excessive in size and unnatural in frequency. Real turbulence is usually experienced as a pitching motion or slight vibration in the rotor system as parts of it pass through air of different temperature and density. It is usually a little more subtle.

Collective authority: I found that in foreward flight, when I lowered the collective all the way, the helicopter did not descend at a rate that it should. I would say, double the rate of descent with full down collective over what you have currently.

Other than that, the model looks great, I LOVE the working mirror, and I think with some work, this could be a really great game.

Edited June 26, 2011 by nightsta1ker

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Maybe something for the future, but the airports have ILS defined in the world config. On the

, why not make a working CDI and GS indicator that respons while within the "ILS cone" (I know it's a bit more advanced, but good enough for me). Helicopter pilots also fly instrument approaches :)

If we don't get tunable radios (I doubt we will, world not big enough), how about a working

whose VOR indicator points to the center of the runway, and an ADF needle that points towards some fake closest NDB station along the extended runway centerline at about typical middle marker distance? Video has VOR needle pointing to a LLZ he claims? I didn't think that was actually possible?

[Max255 59]

To turn the engine off just set throttle back to off... At least it's what I'm doing...

[rfc 10]

Crossfire support doesn't work to me (works in A2:OA), I assume it's because the EXE is named differently and thus no known profile matches.

[twisted 127]

having great fun with this now. just made first landing which after crashing a lot was easier than i'd thought. Love to see a user made mission simulating a working airport - i tried but i lack the knowledge how. but even just having a few other planes flying around was pretty immersive. night flying is tricky but still have the pronounced popin of lights below - for a flight sim this would be best avoided.

[EDcase 87]

I can't believe that people want realistic flight characterisitcs etc and play with mouse and keyboard :eek:

If you are into flying how can you NOT use a joystick???????

[pathetic_berserker 4]

Wow! Actually passed the speed at altitude test after just a couple of tries but the landing sure aint pretty, just lucky if I can walk away from the wreck, lol.

Nice buzz,

Now I wonder how many of us are expecting these features to be snuck in with a new chopper to the next offical OA patch a' la' BIS camel.

[4 IN 1 0]

My question right now is how far did the FM came to represent the real life MD500

[OMAC 254]

In my GTX 295 SLI setup (two PCBs in one card), I noticed that usage of GPU 1 was mainly ~24%, and usage of GPU 2 was at 99%. Strange. In A2/OA, usage of both GPUs was even (near 100%). FPS was 43-49.

_____________________________________

Answers to some of my own questions, and more questions:

1) I get no hud with ^H, as I'm running on default Veteran difficulty.

2) The only way to see the fuel level is to look at the gauge on the instrument panel , right?

3) Myself and others have noticed strong clockwise rotational drift at slow speeds, necessitating constant pushing of the X key. This is apparently realistic (I'm no pilot). Is this because the rear rotor is on the left side of the heli? Does the manual trim set correct for this drift?

I still don't get the Manual trim set/release. Does that involve setting the trim based on info in the hud? With no hud in Veteran and Expert..... ??? Does one hold down the X, C, A, or D keys to compensate for trim and then set the Manual trim?

4) I strongly recommend having Brake bound to some key by default, and a tip at upper right screen in the demos reminding new users that brake is essential to land the heli, not just the reduce thrust X key as is the case in A2/OA. That will most likely reduce frustration in ToH noobs (like me this morning).

5) I also recommend a demo scenario with some miniguns, Hydras, and Hellfires on the chopper, just for fun, and of course some poor souls and vehicles to utterly destroy. :681: (just kidding)

Edited June 26, 2011 by OMAC