ArmA 3 on Steamworks?

[elpresidente 1]

Can we please put once and for all an end to the "will it hurt mods or not" discussion?

Aslong as they developers don't give a statement about the whole "Steam-ArmA 3-MOD" topic, we can't be sure about whether it will affect modding or not.

However,

please keep in mind that some of the most "mod-ablest" games are steam exclusive; Half-Life 2, Skyrim, Left 4 Dead 2, etc. It didn't hurt them, did it?

I think it is safe to assume, that Steam won't "hurt" or restrict ArmA 3 mods in any way.

Edited February 24, 2013 by ElPresidente

[Panthro 10]

My problem is with the always on, invasion of steam into my privacy the looooong list of people who have huge issues with suddenly having all their stuff stolen lost or removed with no reproach

or indication of care from Steam.

Reading the EULA is like having your rights read on arrest, its amazing how may rights you give up by agreeing to it. I remember when you could be part of a class action when it was warranted.

Oh, well thats another reason for steam devs. to be resting comfortably with no need to worry/care about the plight of many.

[rangerpl 13]

Do you think we're on the slippery slope to pay per play, even if you only want to spend 5 minutes in the editor?

Yes. Every copy of ArmA 4 will ship with a USB device that requires you to slide your credit card every time you want to start the game.

Reading the EULA is like having your rights read on arrest, its amazing how may rights you give up by agreeing to it. I remember when you could be part of a class action when it was warranted.

Oh, well thats another reason for steam devs. to be resting comfortably with no need to worry/care about the plight of many.

Wow bro, you are so oppressed. Time to take up arms and start a revolution.

Down with the fascist establishment!

[5133p39 16]

Yeah, thats all i hear - everybody has a "looooong list of ppl with issues", but AFAIK nobody yet posted any concrete info, no links, no nothing.

And regarding the "allways on", i have only like 10-15 games on Steam, but not one of them needs Steam to be running (although i do believe such games exists :) ).

[kualus 1]

Yeah, thats all i hear - everybody has a "looooong list of ppl with issues", but AFAIK nobody yet posted any concrete info, no links, no nothing.

Your Steam fanboyism is showing. Multiple people in this topic have provided concrete info and links, including myself.

[T.S.C.Plage 0]

Good. It cuts profit from this company when you give games to someone else. There is already enough piracy and everything going around and this just adds the icing to the cake.

It doesn't because in most cases the person who buys the used game would have never bought a new one for the full price. Do you really think that a Steam only release will stop piracy?

Gotta watch them steam sales too! I got slapped in the face because I purchased skyrim at another place within the month it came out and then shortly after it was on a steam sale for $30.

Although 90% of the time the best places is amazon for me.

Yeah, gotta watch them, GOTTA WATCH THEM!!! Do you even realize that there are people out there who give a fuq about money but a lot about principles?

Besides that you're registered here since two days now. You actually know sh!t about this community so sit down, watch and STFU!

[5133p39 16]

Your Steam fanboyism is showing. Multiple people in this topic have provided concrete info and links, including myself.

I am sorry, but you must have mistaken me for someone else - as i stated in some previous post that i am not a fan of Steam, i merely have nothing against it, because AFAIK it allways worked perfectly for me.

And now with all that commotion about ArmA3 being Steam exclusive, it just got me interested in hearing why is that a problem.

So far, i haven't got a single piece of evidence, that Steam is a bad choice.

And yes, i read your post linking to someones post about "serious issue with Steam".

From what i've seen, the referenced post is about someone violating someone elses IP rights, by re-releasing "stolen" addons?

But that is completely irrelevenat to my questions, because it is not a "Steam issue", such thing can (and does) happen everywhere on the internet, so i dont see how this "cause" makes Steam a wrong choice as a distribution platform.

[celery 8]

Do you think we're on the slippery slope to pay per play, even if you only want to spend 5 minutes in the editor?

No. The part you quoted was a fairly straightforward demonstration of how silly it is to count unviolated consumer rights as a concrete loss to a corporate entity. That whole premise is just messed up.

[Kuskov 1]

Man there are some funny user created signature banners in this thread. This Steam announcement has created a bloody civil war in the Arma community, is there any good news about Arma3 because I cant find any.

[celery 8]

So far, i haven't got a single piece of evidence, that Steam is a bad choice.

• The reduction of choices in where you can buy the game and where it binds itself
  
• Steam's blatant disregard of consumer rights and the European law which translates into expensive games forever locked into one account, virtually non-existant refunding and Steam having the self-declared right to mess with your account for no particular reason
  
• People in some regions have had bad experiences with Steam's regional restrictions (including BI games) and pricing
  
• Some people have a slow, bad and/or very expensive internet, making an online-dependent solution very bad indeed
  
• Some people's systems are quite simply allergic to Steam for one reason or another but have no problems with a non-Steam copy
  
• Steam Workshop is more readily accessible than external websites probably making it the main venue for mods, but at the same time it's more tedious to browse and the admins are lazy about ownership issues which are rampant
  
• Some people prefer other distributors (or a physical copy) to Steam for whatever reason
  

Again, it's the Steam exclusiveness that is the bad choice, not Steam per se. If Steam was one of several distribution methods, I doubt anyone would have a problem with that.

An earlier reply to your inquiries:

It's the decision to go Steam-exclusive, not necessarily Steam itself. This far everyone's had a free choice where to buy Arma, but not anymore. That's why people are complaining about everything and anything that Steam does worse than other distributors or formats; those worse qualities are now forced upon everyone who wanted to buy Arma 3.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Celery

[Panthro 10]

Wow bro, you are so oppressed. Time to take up arms and start a revolution.

Down with the fascist establishment!

No need to be a dick.

There are things about steam I like you know, like hackers loose all their stuff...... love that one actually!:cool:

I dont get why people get their nickers in a knot over the issues with steam, if your happy to sign your rights away great!

I just dont like where all this is heading and have issues with removal of those rights.

*edit* at this point I got no reason but to assume your a steam fan boy or something.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Panthro
see post

[dsi24 12]

I am curious is there any possibility that since arma 3 is now steamworks hacking and scripting will now go down ?

VAC locks your steam account if you are caught cheating forcing you to lose all your steam games ?

VAC only bans you from VAC enabled multiplayer servers of the game you were caught cheating on (you can still play singleplayer, you can still play on VAC disabled servers). It also throws a "has VAC bans" tag on your user profile to warn other players about you.

• The reduction of choices in where you can buy the game and where it binds itself
  
• Steam's blatant disregard of consumer rights and the European law which translates into expensive games forever locked into one account, virtually non-existant refunding and Steam having the self-declared right to mess with your account for no particular reason
  
• People in some regions have had bad experiences with Steam's regional restrictions (including BI games) and pricing
  
• Some people have a slow, bad and/or very expensive internet, making an online-dependent solution very bad indeed
  
• Some people's systems are quite simply allergic to Steam for one reason or another but have no problems with a non-Steam copy
  
• Steam Workshop is more readily accessible than external websites probably making it the main venue for mods, but at the same time it's more tedious to browse and the admins are lazy about ownership issues
  
• Some people prefer other distributors (or a physical copy) to Steam for whatever reason
  

Again, it's the Steam exclusiveness that is the bad choice, not Steam per se. If Steam was one of several distribution methods, I doubt anyone would have a problem with that.

An earlier reply to your inquiries:

1) You can buy the game from any retailer BIS puts it on, it is up to BIS if they want to put a non-steam exe in the files

2) Steam Marketplace is already in beta, DotA2 keys being sold. Besides, reselling games hurts the devs, and the lack of it allows for the amazing sales on Steam. Reselling is impossible to support in the post-scarcity digital era, especially when what you buy is more of a service than a product.

3) Steam's regional pricing is up to the dev that puts it on Steam, BIS in ArmA3's case. Restrictions follow regional law, so go talk to Germany/Australia about that.

4) You have to download patches from BIS anyways, besides, Steam allows for delta patching which actually lessens the load on your net :)

5) Steam Workshop is a venue for mods, it's already easy to browse anyways, filter by the type you're looking for, scroll a bit, click a button on something you like, play.

6) You can buy the game from any retailer BIS puts it on

So basically all this whining is about something on BIS' end or is just ignorance.

BTW my favorite part about this thread is the poll at the top of it, proof that this is just a small contingent of loudness.

Edited February 24, 2013 by dsi24

[5133p39 16]

...

* The reduction of choices in where you can buy the game and where it binds itself

...well, i presume that it will be possible to buy it from other places too (like gamestop for example), not just Steam.

* Steam's blatant disregard of consumer rights and the European law which translates into expensive games forever locked into one account, virtually non-existant refunding and Steam having the self-declared right to mess with your account for no particular reason

...i see this as irrelevant, as i dont see any real noticeable impact this would have on me as a user - but i may be wrong, so, any RL examples?

* People in some regions have had bad experiences with Steam's regional restrictions (including BI games) and pricing

...again, some example would help, its hard to imagine what exactly do you mean.

* Some people have a slow, bad and/or very expensive internet, making an online-dependent solution very bad indeed

...hard to imagine in todays times, but ok - so these ppl will buy the game on DVD, which they just "activate" after installation on Steam, so no problem whatsoever.

* Some people's systems are quite simply allergic to Steam for one reason or another but have no problems with a non-Steam copy

...well, this is a complete nonsense :)

I mean - dont take this wrong, but if somebody cannot properly setup a computer, he should either go and learn it somewhere, or let professionals do it for him, or stick to a console.

Steam is not the one to blame for user's faults and inability to use a computer.

* Steam Workshop is more readily accessible than external websites probably making it the main venue for mods, but at the same time it's more tedious to browse and the admins are lazy about ownership issues

...ok, so dont use it. Nobody forces you to do so. You can just download the mods manually, or via some updater (i am sure the 6updater will adapt)

* Some people prefer other distributors (or a physical copy) to Steam for whatever reason

...this looks redundant - i ask why ppl do not want Steam, and one of your answers is "because ppl dont want it" :)

I'd like to know why, what is that "whatever reason"? If you want a physical copy, then buy it on DVD.

Edited February 24, 2013 by 5133p39

[W0lle 1052]

I don't need a reason to refuse any unnecessary 3rd party software. What we got a BI Store for? For which actually just recently there was a lot of fuss because of the user account merge. What was that for? Keeping people busy?

Until this day no Steam was required to run BI games. I would like to know what exactly changed so now Steam is a requirement? EA has secretly taken over BI? The old staff no more in command? Too much Czech beer?

I was (and still am) with BI since day one, and I will not accept such a treatment. I don't like to be forced to do something just in order to play their games. It wasn't necessary for OFP, not for ArmA, not for ArmA2.

Seriously what is it that you Pro-Steam guys can't accept that people will not be forced into Steam? Lack of tolerance? Or blind fanboism? Paid by Steam? Probably all of that.

What you call 'redunant' is essential for people with only a shitty internet connection. And yes, these people exist even in the middle of Europe, in "high tech countries". But good for you that you have a 100mbit line and don't have to worry about unnecessary downloads. For these people even updating Steam is a pain. But what do I say, you won't get it anyways.

What makes me laugh is: In your signature you have "Be smart, use Sprocket"... Now well I would like to use Sprocket/BI Store as before but because of the brilliant decision to use Steam I can not...

Edited February 24, 2013 by W0lle

[rangerpl 13]

No need to be a dick.

There are things about steam I like you know, like hackers loose all their stuff...... love that one actually!:cool:

I dont get why people get their nickers in a knot over the issues with steam, if your happy to sign your rights away great!

I just dont like where all this is heading and have issues with removal of those rights.

There are certain rights you sign away every time you click "I agree" under an EULA. Have you actually seen the Steam user agreement? The only meaningful right you actually "sign away" is the one to resell the games that you have bought. The right to a class-action lawsuit? Come on, you sign that right away with almost every piece of software you use, including ArmA. (BIS not being responsible for damage and all that).

The EULA you accept for Steam is no worse than any other you have accepted. Really, it's a piece of software that millions of people have been using for years. Maybe it's time to take the tinfoil hat off? EULAs exist so that Valve doesn't get sued every time the client crashes for you or causes an issue.

*edit* at this point I got no reason but to assume your a steam fan boy or something.

Wow, somebody disagrees with me so they must obviously be a fanboy! Wonderful logic. Am I also on Valve's payroll? Gotta follow the money trail!

Also, just to reply to your initial post,

My problem is with the always on, invasion of steam into my privacy the looooong list of people who have huge issues with suddenly having all their stuff stolen lost or removed with no reproach

or indication of care from Steam.

Your friends might want to be careful about which porn sites they visit, there's this stuff called malware you know.

Edited February 24, 2013 by RangerPL

[NoQuarter 0]

...i ask why ppl do not want Steam, and one of your answers is "because ppl dont want it" :)

I'd like to know why, what is that "whatever reason"?

Speaking for myself here but... OK, off the top of my head, here's one.

Steam adds nothing -not a single unit- to the game.

Good enough?

It is for me.

[-Coulum- 35]

I think that it is undeniable that steam is not something that everyone can like. there will always be some people that have problems with it and thus will always prefer to not use it. I really don't think its worth arguing about.

But it doesn't matter because like it or not, your going to have to live with it or not play arma 3. Its just the truth of the matter.

Edited February 24, 2013 by -Coulum-

[rangerpl 13]

steam adds nothing -not a single unit- to the game.

Yeah, fuck steamworks features guys, BIS should add more cars!!!!11!1

[-Coulum- 35]

Well I've read enough to witness a full cycle in this thread. Probably a couple cycles actually. In closing, I dislike steam, but there is no use worrying about how it will be so horrible that it ruins the Arma experience. It won't, and if it did, there is nothing we can do to change BIS mind. I look forward to hearing from BIS on details of how they will minimize steam's problems, use it to improve Arma, and what is fact and fiction concerning the many myths out there. I will buy the game and continue to look forward to the alpha.

This medicine tastes bad, but it is necessary, and will make the game healthier.

[eddieck 10]

Well I've read enough to witness a full cycle in this thread. Probably a couple cycles actually. In closing, I dislike steam, but there is no use worrying about how it will be so horrible that it ruins the Arma experience. It won't, and if it did, there is nothing we can do to change BIS mind. I look forward to hearing from BIS on details of how they will minimize steam's problems, use it to improve Arma, and what is fact and fiction concerning the many myths out there. I will buy the game and continue to look forward to the alpha.

This medicine tastes bad, but it is necessary, and will make the game healthier.

Agreed.

BIS doesn't have too many choices when it comes to multiplayer services BTW (referring to the server browser and player authentication). The only real players in that market are GameSpy and Steamworks; GFWL might have a browser component (or it might be just matchmaking, not sure) but that's a POS.

They seem to have something set up with GameSpy now, as evidenced in the other thread, but I'm now wondering if this is just for testing. It would honestly be quite dumb to use both Steamworks and GameSpy, seeing as Steamworks is free and GameSpy will cost them a minimum of $15k per year (source on this is an email I got from GS when they closed their indie program). And GS is a POS.

In an ideal world where BIS had unlimited resources and everything was possible, they would develop their own solution and continue to distribute via retail, Sprocket, Steam, Desura, etc. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. Developing their own solution will cost extra development time and money, and then BIS also has to deal with the server administration aspect, which isn't where their expertise lies. Basically, anything else is likely to result in both delays and problems.

[celery 8]

...well, i presume that it will be possible to buy it from other places too (like gamestop for example), not just Steam.

The game will always bind to a Steam account. You can't buy it from the BI store and then forget about the whole Steam part.

...i see this as irrelevant, as i dont see any real noticeable impact this would have on me as a user - but i may be wrong, so, any RL examples?

Want to sell or give away the game you bought? You can't. The game doesn't work on your system even though it should? You can't get a refund. Done something or Steam thinks you've done something they don't want you to do? Account suspended, €1000 worth of games taken away: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=5406-WFZC-5519

...again, some example would help, its hard to imagine what exactly do you mean.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?122794-ARMA-3-development-blog-amp-reveals&p=2299319&viewfull=1#post2299319

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?122794-ARMA-3-development-blog-amp-reveals&p=2299429&viewfull=1#post2299429

...hard to imagine in todays times, but ok - so these ppl will buy the game on DVD, which they just "activate" after installation on Steam, so no problem whatsoever.

What about game updates? A Steam-only automatic delta patch means that they are forced to download and install the update on the machine that contains the Arma 3 installation. The only way to "patch" a game in a situation like that would be to copy the whole Arma 3 directory from a machine that downloaded the update and use it to overwrite the Arma 3 directory on another machine. And that's assuming Steam won't throw a shit fit and start checking and downloading the whole damn game all over again.

Also, Steam wants to update itself too and can get cranky if you don't.

And then there is the mystery of whether offline LAN games are possible.

...well, this is a complete nonsense :)

I mean - dont take this wrong, but if somebody cannot properly setup a computer, he should either go and learn it somewhere, or let professionals do it for him, or stick to a console.

Steam is not the one to blame for user's faults and inability to use a computer.

So if Steam is the only thing preventing a player from enjoying his games, Steam cannot in any way be the problem? Since you're a Bohemia Interactive employee/contractor, it's not the best PR to imply that a segment that has voiced its worries in this same thread is incompetent and should stick to consoles when they would have had zero problems if Arma 3 wasn't Steam-exclusive.

...ok, so dont use it. Nobody forces you to do so. You can just download the mods manually, or via some updater (i am sure the 6updater will adapt)

The problem is that Workshop will likely become the main hub for mods because it's one click away when you have Steam open, and that's where the "magic" of stolen addons, unauthorized uploads, unfriendly user interface and disillusioned mod makers happens.

...this looks redundant - i ask why ppl do not want Steam, and one of your answers is "because ppl dont want it" :)

I'd like to know why, what is that "whatever reason"?

And yet this is the biggest problem. Some people simply don't want to use Steam and that should be reason enough to convince you that going Steam-exclusive is a bad thing for the consumer.

[Gunter Severloh 4067]

Steam adds nothing -not a single unit- to the game.

Are you lost? Steam doesn't add, nor is supposed to add anything to the game, its just a platform, like playing the

game through pc, or xbox, its just the way the game is launched.

As posted here:

http://www.bistudio.com/english/company/developers-blog/356-arma3-steam-dev-blog

it explains what its all about.

Until this day no Steam was required to run BI games. I would like to know what exactly changed so now Steam is a requirement? EA has secretly taken over BI?

The old staff no more in command? Too much Czech beer?

I was (and still am) with BI since day one, and I will not accept such a treatment. I don't like to be forced to do something just in order to play their games.

It wasn't necessary for OFP, not for ArmA, not for ArmA2.

What Wolle said, i completely agree, i dont see the point of being forced to use something when the previous titles worked np.

I've had my share of problems with steam with RO, and another game, at one point in time back then steam updated their platform and screwed everyone

the forums were full of complaints all because of that steam update, this happened in 2009 i believe, alotttttttttt of people were pissed,

and could not play any game they had at all.

So again I dont see the point to run something else in order to play my favorite game, this means the whole folder system for missions

and mods and such will be changed to a certain extent too.

At least give us an option for digital download through sprocket, a version that dont need steam to run.

[celery 8]

The EULA you accept for Steam is no worse than any other you have accepted.

How many cases are there of a publisher/vendor agent storming into someone's house to take away all their games because they said something naughty on the forums, or raiding a secondhand game deal?

[NoQuarter 0]

Are you lost? Steam doesn't add, nor is supposed to add anything to the game

Precisely, which is why some see no valid reason for it...

Try to keep up.

[W0lle 1052]

Okay since some people want a reason, here are three:

9. AMENDMENTS TO THIS AGREEMENT

Valve may amend this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use) at any time in its sole discretion. If Valve amends the Agreement, such amendment shall be effective thirty (30) days after Valve provides you with notice of the amended Agreement, either via e-mail or as a notification within the Software. You can view the Agreement at any time at http://www.steampowered.com/. Your failure to cancel your Account, or cease use of the Subscription(s) affected by the amendment, within thirty (30) days after receiving notification of the amendment, will constitute your acceptance of the amended terms. If you don’t agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or to cease use of the affected Subscription(s). Valve shall not have any obligation to refund any fees that may have accrued to your Account before cancellation of your Account or cessation of use of any Subscription, nor shall Valve have any obligation to prorate any fees in such circumstances.

Aha. So I have to log into Steam at least every 30 days to check if there were no points added to the agreement in which for example I grant Valve the right to use my created content (Missions or addons) for free when- and wherever they want. If I don't do so, I agree to everything added within the 30 days. And if I don't agree to everything they add, the only way is to cancel my account - and lose my games. Decline and continue to the old conditions is not an option.

Offline mode? Yeah sure.

10

B. Termination by You.

You may cancel your Account at any time. You may cease use of a Subscription at any time or, if you choose, you may request that we terminate your access to a Subscription. However, Subscriptions are not transferable, and even if your access to a Subscription for a particular game or application is terminated, the original activation key will not be able to be registered to any other account, even if the game or application was purchased in a retail store. Access to Subscriptions purchased as a part of a pack or bundle cannot be terminated individually, termination of access to one game within the bundle will result in termination of access to all games purchased in the pack will be removed from the account. Your cancellation of an Account, or your cessation of use of any Subscription or request that access to a Subscription be terminated, will not entitle you to any refund, including of any Subscription fees. Valve reserves the right to collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred prior to the cancellation of your Account or termination of your access to a particular Subscription. In addition, you are responsible for any charges incurred to third-party vendors or content providers before your cancellation.

So if I decide to cancel my account I lose all my games, no refund, no option to give the game to someone else. Poof it's all gone! (My money too, of course)

If tomorrow I cancel my BI Store account I will still be able to use my games, I'm just no more able to download them.

C. Termination by Valve.

Valve may cancel your Account or any particular Subscription(s) at any time. In the event that your Account or a particular Subscription is terminated or cancelled by Valve for a violation of this Agreement or improper or illegal activity, no refund, including of any Subscription fees, will be granted.

So Valve can cancel my account at any time, with no reason. In which case I lose all my games and spent money (of course). It might be enough that a support clerk doesn't like the way I communicate with him.

"Nah that's not gonna happen" you say. Yeah maybe not, but the possibility is there right?

Seriously, do any of you actually read what you agree to or just click okay and hope everything will be alright (aka 'screw this wall of text, I wanna play now!!!)? Obviously, else some of you wouldn't tell us such stuff like "Steam EULA is not worse than others".

If I don't agree to the BI Store terms anymore I still have my games, no matter what. If I purchased a physical copy I have the game no matter what changes the distributor adds to his conditions.

I have four good reasons now not to use this crap. But feel free to continue praising Steam as the perfect platform which ain't that bad after all...

Edited February 24, 2013 by W0lle