ArmA 3 on Steamworks?

[Maio 293]

Would it be realistic, or right to petition this decision to be only steam for Arma3?

I mean we already have a poll, but a petition would basically gather a list of names of the community that do not want Arma3 steam only.

So a petition stating that we want at least another option independent of steam to buy Arma3, this does not mean for example that if a digital download

option is made available that it still requires steam, rather its independent and has nothing to do with steam.

is this againsted any rules?

Would there be an interest in doing this?

Well that would mean developing a new version of A3 without steam integration... If A3 comes out at the end of 2013, how long would a new version take to develop?

Would they have the time and resources? Not to mention the will of striping down the game and rebuilding key elements? What would be the estimated release date for that, 2015?

From my POV and I guess any businesses POV its not worth it. Like it or not, the vocal minority on this forum does not represent a big enough customer segment. Did BI change the setting back to the 2010's after the rage that took place in the "OMG future weapons" thread and several others ? No...

I see comments here claiming BI is forcing steam upon you... really?! Well then I guess BI also forced DirectX 10/11 capable GPU's and Windows Vista/7/8 upon you when they chose to switch from Dx 9....

BTW Gunter, I used your post as reference, it wasn't targeted specifically at you

[memphisbelle 99]

The decision is made. We have to accept and deal with it. They are running a business. The loss of long standing customers is irrelevant in terms of being able to open a bigger consumer audience using steam as exclusive distributing platform.

Although I personally completely disagree, think you´re nonetheless right...unfortunately

[Tonci87 163]

What do you mean by "mod profiles" here exactly?

Currently I use the Arma 2 Launcher.

I have a Default profile that I use for SP where it simply loads all my favourite mods

I have a ACE Test Profile with only ACE and CBA that I use to hunt Bugs

I can easily create a new profile if I plan to play on a MP Server

I also have a special Brigade2010 Launcher that we use to make sure that everyone who is playing on our servers has the correct and required mods.

That is what I mean by mod profiles.

Different Presets that I can change in a few seconds.

s this possible with the steam workshop?

[chortles 263]

As long as mods have no size limit and the implementation isn't bugged, I can live with ArmA III on Steam, especially if it'd mean the end of language-locked regional versions (I hate playing in Polish). I'll still buy a boxed version though, just to have a paper map and manual on hand.

Question: Why do you believe that mods would have a size limit, Steam or not? Considering what was described (100 MB for Skyrim, 10 MB for TF2) was size limits for Steam Workshop hosting as opposed to a hardcoded limit on mod size... and I do imagine that "wanting a less buggy implementation than Arma 2" influenced the decision.

Would it be realistic, or right to petition this decision to be only steam for Arma3?

I mean we already have a poll, but a petition would basically gather a list of names of the community that do not want Arma3 steam only.

So a petition stating that we want at least another option independent of steam to buy Arma3, this does not mean for example that if a digital download

option is made available that it still requires steam, rather its independent and has nothing to do with steam.

is this againsted any rules?

Would there be an interest in doing this?

Right? Absolutely. Realistic? Uhh, sure, putting together a petition is entirely possible... this thread is basically that petition. It actually getting Maruk to publicly backtrack though?

The timetable in the devblog suggests that the actual implementation work has already begun/been in progress, that Maruk specifically refused to let Arma 3 slip into a 2014 release like complainers here asked for or even begged for ("I'll wait until 2014 to keep it Steam free!"... but Maruk won't, how many times do I have to say this?) and that Maruk knew well in advance that the uproar would happen.

While I doubt that BI is indeed trying to dump Arma as a franchise, it seems to me that well before the Steamworks implementation they'd already had a different vision of what Arma could/should be, with Jay and Ivan publicly conveying that vision, than what the complainers were hoping for out of their Arma 3 wishlists. Believe me, when you have a dev after Gamescom declaring that he's proud of cutting features because it meant that they were on track/focused (though the devblog implies something else...) and making comparisons of Arma 3 with Duke Nukem Forever, or when Gaia is talking up OPFOR specifically having more technological parity with BLUFOR (instead of someone on this forum who specifically wanted OPFOR to be asymmetrical only -- I remember you!)...

Like it or not, the vocal minority on this forum does not represent a big enough customer segment. Did BI change the setting back to the 2010's after the rage that took place in the "OMG future weapons" thread and several others ? No...

I was going to remark on this... and W0lle himself said earlier that he was among those disagreeing with the setting shift. Heck, someone pointed out all the things that people went "SELL OUT!" over... from the "expanding ring" crosshair (which was just an official implementation of the Minimal Crosshair concept) to the crosshair jump to a certain someone calling infantry movement/weapon handling (i.e. tactical pace) too fluid and responsive -- yes, complaining negatively about the by-far best word-of-mouth in-game footage in E3/Gamescom 2012... :rolleyes:

Well that would mean developing a new version of A3 without steam integration... If A3 comes out at the end of 2013, how long would a new version take to develop?

Would they have the time and resources? Not to mention the will of striping down the game and rebuilding key elements? What would be the estimated release date for that, 2015?

What's another year in development hell to the "Steam-free!"? Whereas Vespa was already referencing Duke Nukem Forever after Gamescom and Maruk is saying "do all that we can to release in 2013" and DnA specifically cites a "very real chance" of missing 2013 in a devblog posted in late February 2013...

Yes, people, the Arma 3 project lead implying that without Steamworks, his team would have over ten months or more work (or even a full year's more work) still left undone for a game announced and in development for almost two years now?!

[Placebo 28]

Obviously there's a lot of opinion people want to share about this issue, unfortunately very few seem capable of doing it within the forum rules, so I'm closing this thread today so the moderators don't have to waste their Sundays dealing with the pathetic crap from both sides of the argument.

The poll has been cleaned up, all the no votes by the moron Sapped have been removed and he has been permanently banned.

[Placebo 28]

So let's try this one again as well, nobody wants to stifle discussion and debate but you must abide by the forum rules, they're draconian but there for a very valid reason, calling either side of the argument/debate idiots and morons and babies etc is flamebaiting and will not be tolerated, this includes text as well as images in posts and signatures, implying that people are babies because they dislike (or like) Steam is not acceptable here, all such images must be removed from posts/signatures or there will be infractions for flamebaiting.

---------- Post added at 11:58 ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 ----------

I would also add that if anyone has concerns about the way the issue of Steam/Steamworks discussion moderation is being handled you are of course always welcome to PM a moderator directly and/or reply in the Ask a mod thread in OT. We're not trying to stifle anyone's "right to debate or protest" just to keep this place as tolerable for all as possible.

[chrisb 196]

A couple of these I asked on another Steam related thread, but I may get a little more idea from this thread too.

1/ I buy the disc version (I like hard copy rather than digital download). The key that comes with the disc, will the disc take me directly to Steam, if I am internet connected, as I believe its going to be a Steam activated key, or will the key be in the box (so as to speak, old way) and simply do it as usual ?

2/ I have the game loaded and ready, once that happens and I want to look around the game, I assume I can be off line in SP, will Steam run anywhere in the background, or will the game run o.k. with Steam turned off in SP. If Steam has to run for some reason in the background in SP, what, if any, is the likely performance hit ?

3/ Further down the line some mod/addons are made for A3, I would want to download some interesting ones. I download these from the Steam Workshop area, are these then kept in a Steam library on my pc, or can they be moved over or a separate back up copy of the mod/addon stored on a separate HDD drive ?

4/ MP, I join in a group that has been formed, does the server have to be Steam run, or can any server be used. I assume here that Steam will be running in the background, how much of a hit to performance will this be, or is there virtually no performance loss ?

5/ Is Steam subscription based or free to use for everything A3 based, i.e. the game (once purchased) and the mod/addons ?

Thanks, sorry for being a ‘noob’ at Steam, but really I haven’t dealt with Steam at all in the past.

[kllrt 154]

I'm using Steam for a long time (6 years) and I can say I didn't have any performance issues. Anyway I think you can't move workshop files. (I think I'll use PwS anyway...)

[spooky lynx 73]

Well that would mean developing a new version of A3 without steam integration... If A3 comes out at the end of 2013, how long would a new version take to develop?

Would they have the time and resources? Not to mention the will of striping down the game and rebuilding key elements? What would be the estimated release date for that, 2015?

It hadn't taken much time and resources to make non-Steam Half-Life 2 & Episodes and CS:S. Why should it take so for developers themselves? Moreover many of us agree to wait for good polished game rather than buy de-facto some kind of incomplete beta with tons of bugs quicker but then wait for a number of patches which will make it more or less playable *cough*ArmA1 and early ArmA2*cough*

---------- Post added at 15:41 ---------- Previous post was at 15:36 ----------

2/ I have the game loaded and ready, once that happens and I want to look around the game, I assume I can be off line in SP, will Steam run anywhere in the background, or will the game run o.k. with Steam turned off in SP. If Steam has to run for some reason in the background in SP, what, if any, is the likely performance hit ?

You have to keep Steam running at background for playing. Speaking about performance hit it depends on your PC and the game you run. I hadn't any problems with HL2 or mods, but some lags may appear with ArmA which can't be named resource-friendly game.

[tonygrunt 10]

A couple of these I asked on another Steam related thread, but I may get a little more idea from this thread too.

1) If I remember correctly from previous steampowered games. The CD setup will guide you to installing the steam client if it's not already installed (you need internet), making a new account or using an existing one, entering your key, use your CD to copy and decrypt the game (in the past there were cases that steam skipped the CD and downloaded the whole game), download any updates that were made after the CD went gold.

2) The steam client must at all times be running if you want to play the game but you can turn it to offline mode. Performance loss should be minimum.

3) & 4) We will have to wait for BI to comment.

5) Steam is free, no subscription exist for games and mods except for subscription based games and some Valve games that sell user made content.

[Dallas 9]

Run Steam and Fraps, whenever I play ArmA.

Always disliked Steam, until I joined it a few years ago. These days it's a major turn off if a game I want isn't available on Steam-

[mrcash2009 0]

I personally dont welcome steam platform for arma as "exclusive" (not as in never use it), I much prefer physical copy or >> Sprocket << ?.

I dont like being strapped into a steam world with its niggles that have been listed already so no need to repeat. So I will be looking for physical copy before anything else. Having said that I understand the business end of why, and the market potential to keep things ticking along and build a bigger audience.

I just prefer something like game download where you get the files, get the key and your done, just like physical. I really dont like steam for its be all and end all dominance approach, and I dont think I ever will. I have only got steam through skyrim, since removed now, but its not the worst experience in the world but not the best either.

As for steam workshop and mods and that debate, I can confirm like skyrim even though it started up the workshop most mods are catered for by nexus (3rd party a bit like sixupdater) so there was no real issue with ignoring the workshop (and some of its limitations) and going external as normal. As regards people upping others work on it, well, thats a whole thread on its own.

Also, didnt we see some reall issue with patch releases through steam? I hope that gets ironed out, then again I guess if you do direct busniess with them they fall over backwards to help.

My view on the news is luke warm, but see the business reasons.

Edited February 25, 2013 by mrcash2009

[zoog 18]

1/ I buy the disc version (I like hard copy rather than digital download). The key that comes with the disc, will the disc take me directly to Steam, if I am internet connected, as I believe its going to be a Steam activated key, or will the key be in the box (so as to speak, old way) and simply do it as usual ?

Usually you install the game from the dvd so you don't have to download the data via Steam. The installation will come with Steam requirement and you will need Steam in order to activate the key and launch the game AFAIK. This is in general the case with DVD's for Steam games IIRC.

2/ I have the game loaded and ready, once that happens and I want to look around the game, I assume I can be off line in SP, will Steam run anywhere in the background, or will the game run o.k. with Steam turned off in SP. If Steam has to run for some reason in the background in SP, what, if any, is the likely performance hit ?

Before you can go into offline mode you first have to launch the game one time (usually). Usually Steam still has to run in the background, even when playing offline. Unless the developer offers a Steam free offline .exe (something Ground Branch has planned for example). There is no indication this will be the case for Arma 3. On the contrary, it seems like any general Steam offline mode game if you check the pre-emptive answers in the blog.

3/ Further down the line some mod/addons are made for A3, I would want to download some interesting ones. I download these from the Steam Workshop area, are these then kept in a Steam library on my pc, or can they be moved over or a separate back up copy of the mod/addon stored on a separate HDD drive ?

I have no idea how this works.

4/ MP, I join in a group that has been formed, does the server have to be Steam run, or can any server be used. I assume here that Steam will be running in the background, how much of a hit to performance will this be, or is there virtually no performance loss ?

For some games it's possible to start a Steam game server via a commandline without running the whole Steam client like a consumer does (if memory servers well).

5/ Is Steam subscription based or free to use for everything A3 based, i.e. the game (once purchased) and the mod/addons ?

Steam is a distribution platform and also includes developer tools to make things easy on the deveoper. It's up to the developer how to offer their product. Steam itself is totally free. Arma 3 will be sold as a game as far as we can tell, so once you have bought it you can use it for "free". Again: it's up to the developer to decide to add subscriptions or microtransactions, it's not something that is forced by Steam. Steam is just a platform to sell your game or incorporate certain Steamworks features as you like.

[Leon86 13]

I dont mind having something on steam.

as long as it's cheap, after all you cant sell it anymore (not that I plan to, but still). So yeah, I'll buy it, just not at full price.

I think BI has flawed reasoning in their statement, saying they want to avoid multiple versions and cannot afford launching without DRM. The witcher 2 launched without DRM on gog.com, what version popped up on the torrent sites? a drm version that was cracked (according to cd projekt in an interview). The steam drm will not stop a pirated version from spreading. Might as well launch without drm on multiple platforms, people will buy it.

@zoog, I meant you dont need multiple versions without drm.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Leon86

[zoog 18]

I think BI has flawed reasoning in their statement, saying they want to avoid multiple versions [...] Might as well launch without drm on multiple platforms, people will buy it.

According to BIS, multiple version was a huge drain on resources:

Some of you will remember the huge amount of different distributed versions for Arma 2, and all of the problems associated with it. We needed to spend far too much time on creating and testing all the master copies. Every patch had to be tested for every conceivable combination of distribution, patch and DLC. This drained so many of our resources, that we could not support the game itself as much as we'd have liked. By targeting Steam as our primary distribution, we can take those resources and put them to much better use: making the most splendid game possible.

[Placebo 28]

The complexities of post-release support for all the myriad of releases which vary by country, by language, by publisher, by format, by installer etc. etc. is a monumental mind fudge, I can attest to that having served a couple of stints on the support desk as well as all the emails/pm's I get directly.

[derdoe 10]

The complexities of post-release support for all the myriad of releases which vary by country, by language, by publisher, by format, by installer etc. etc. is a monumental mind fudge, I can attest to that having served a couple of stints on the support desk as well as all the emails/pm's I get directly.

Thats the only reason that i can actually understand why BIS has decided to use Steam. My hope is that integration with Steam will be successfull, but please please please no achievements like in other games, e.g. Chivalry - TADAAAAA you killed someone! One of the most fun things in Arma for me is if you dont know if you hit someone or not and have to search for a body to confirm it. Please dont take away that fun for me.

[Placebo 28]

Booo! I love achievements, they're great fun and give you something to aim for besides the usual stuff :)

[Smurf 12]

What achievements have to do with kill messages?

[R0adki11 3945]

Booo! I love achievements, they're great fun and give you something to aim for besides the usual stuff :)

I personally hope we don't see achievements, Arma series is much better than COD and those sort of unrealistic games.

[Placebo 28]

I don't play COD, but the games I do play that have achievements for example recent games like Fifa, Skyrim, Sleeping Dogs etc. etc. it just adds another layer of things to achieve, aim for, enjoy within the game, if you don't like achievements just ignore them, they do you no harm, they won't change how you play the game etc. so why be against them for those who do enjoy them? :)

[Varanon 892]

I personally hope we don't see achievements, Arma series is much better than COD and those sort of unrealistic games.

I fail to see the connection between achievements and good/bad/realistc/unrealistic games.

Achievement unlocked: Shoot a bird with an underwater gun :cool:

[Tonci87 163]

Currently I use the Arma 2 Launcher.

I have a Default profile that I use for SP where it simply loads all my favourite mods

I have a ACE Test Profile with only ACE and CBA that I use to hunt Bugs

I can easily create a new profile if I plan to play on a MP Server

I also have a special Brigade2010 Launcher that we use to make sure that everyone who is playing on our servers has the correct and required mods.

That is what I mean by mod profiles.

Different Presets that I can change in a few seconds.

s this possible with the steam workshop?

OK, lets get back to this question

[zoog 18]

I like stats recording, this can be done with achievements as well (sort of). I like to know how many miles I walked, how many hours I played, how many hours I spent behind the wheel, how many hours I flew, etc. I just love those stats thingies!

[Placebo 28]

Yep I'm the same, I would love to see full stat logging/tracking in all Arma games along with achievements, I want to know how many bullets I fired, how accurate my shooting is, which weapons I use the best, where I hit on the enemy, etc. etc. etc.