Do you want Laaagdoll Physics in ArmA 3?

[Fireball 16]

Hi PuFu

Because it leads to Objects being in different places on each machine. So for instance A body you can hide behind as player A is not there for Player C it is perhaps the other side of a wall.

That's just plain wrong - ragdolls have nothing to do with body position.

First of all you must assume physics work for everyone roughly the same, so it's really only about the body position which might be synced and maybe a body will be "prodded" down somewhere from the network code, but you won't notice.

I don't know why you just ignored my post, I've counted up so many old and new shooters, which work perfectly fine with Ragdolls (R6 Vegas 2, GRAW1+2) and forgot one of the latest few most prominent ones (still):

- BFBC2

- CoD: Black Ops

So why do you claim it doesn't work fine, if everyone's using them? Stop talking about something you have no idea about.

[ACPL Jon 68]

This game NEEDS ragdoll, even the most basic ones. What's to synchronize in MP? That kind of physics is always client-side, that's the simpliest truth since CoH. Also, it can be done the right way, without "flying bodies" (yet, SUBTLE gore would be nice), even some custom CSS ragdolls were close.

[wamingo 1]

The argument about using dead bodies for cover may take root in the lack of natural ground cover. Even with all the rocks and stuff strewn around the terrain remains largely flat and undetailed. Makes cover a precious commodity..

Perhaps had the terrain been more noisy, the need to use the dead for cover wouldn't be as strong.

There are a few areas in both chernarus and takistan that has more noisy terrain so I think the terrain grid size is generally good enough. Or what?

[gammadust 12]

...

- BFBC2

- CoD: Black Ops

So why do you claim it doesn't work fine, if everyone's using them? Stop talking about something you have no idea about.

Well, I don't think you will convince the OP, at least given the BFBC2 example, it has the most erratic, inconsistent net code I ever been subject to no matter the latency you have, which is a shame since it is, imo, the best in this gameplay pace. Proving that ragdolls might be a factor in what the OP fears most.

My whish is for ragdolls to be included (not that I doubt it too much that they will), hopefully having BIS take a serious look in eventual consequences on their net code.

[maturin 12]

The argument about using dead bodies for cover may take root in the lack of natural ground cover. Even with all the rocks and stuff strewn around the terrain remains largely flat and undetailed. Makes cover a precious commodity..

Perhaps had the terrain been more noisy, the need to use the dead for cover wouldn't be as strong.

There are a few areas in both chernarus and takistan that has more noisy terrain so I think the terrain grid size is generally good enough. Or what?

Taking cover behind bodies is important. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Running into the middle of a road to grab the rocket launcher that will save your life from a nearby APC comes to mind. Getting to the gear menu takes way too much time, so I being in a modicum of cover is important. Likewise, if I'm playing as a medic, sometimes I will (guiltily) use my patients as cover until I can pick my moment and drag them to safety.

[froggyluv 2136]

The argument about using dead bodies for cover may take root in the lack of natural ground cover. Even with all the rocks and stuff strewn around the terrain remains largely flat and undetailed. Makes cover a precious commodity..

Perhaps had the terrain been more noisy, the need to use the dead for cover wouldn't be as strong.

There are a few areas in both chernarus and takistan that has more noisy terrain so I think the terrain grid size is generally good enough. Or what?

A very astute assessment! Was just messing around in Proving Ground, which comes closer to micro-terrain then any other Arma Island -and I think you are on to something.

Curious if that is a common military practice (hiding behind the dead) or more an exception to the rule aka. knife kills in the military.

[ryguy 10]

Hiding behind bodies is definitely the exception. Bodies are small cover that are hard to hind behind. A rock or tree or house is always the better choice.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Dont forget that bodies are also ammo boxes, and wether they are just or just not behind a piece of cover may be a matter of life and death when you are grabbing ammo, at least their torso's need to be synchronized.

[froggyluv 2136]

Dont forget that bodies are also ammo boxes, and wether they are just or just not behind a piece of cover may be a matter of life and death when you are grabbing ammo, at least their torso's need to be synchronized.

Also a good point. How realistic is it that a corpse would protect you from military grade rifle fire I wonder? Does the engine now use penetration values that determine if a bullet would pass thru and still hit with reduced velocity?

[dissaifer 10]

I honestly can not believe this conversion is still going on...

Proof that you can not only sync extreme ragdoll physics but you can also play it back over and over and over... Halo 3.

It's not prefect but it's good enough.

... and I'm done here. Shouldn't be posting anyway.

[Fireball 16]

Imagine Left4Dead without Ragdolls:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiZ8au860AE

[CameronMcDonald 146]

I'd love to see some kind of toned-down ragdoll, but the second I notice that

a) A corpse isn't stopping rounds, or

b) A corpse isn't on my screen where it is on someone else's screen,

I will want the old system back.

[dmarkwick 261]

I'd just like to remind everyone that ragdoll in MP games is not always what it seems - in most MP games when a unit is killed it is essentially removed from the game, and each client machine will then apply it's own ragdoll procedures onto it. Several factors will then become important:

There's no guarantee that each client's newly dead unit is in exactly the same state of animated pose as each other (e.g. walkcycles are not synced), therefore the initial conditions are different. Slight lag differences in position mean that small world-space differences are also introduced.

So, to be pragmatic about it, we should realise that only the body real-world position is important, and that the actual pose of the dead unit is not. With my proposed chest-segment sync method, there *might* be some small amount of warping as the server decides where the body should actually lie, and update all clients accordingly. But, this happens already in any case.

Body position sync is important in ArmA for all the reasons already laid out: cover, raiding, immersion. It might be argued that body pose is also important if someone wishes to use a body as cover (something I've never done as I simply never expected a body to provide anything other than concealment and is therefore useless in that regard). But sensitive netcoding can make the cover abilities be calculated from the client being hit, or by the shooter, or by the server. Either way, the vagaries of the bullet-stopping powers of flabby flesh can be seen as somewhat unpredictable, just as in real life. Let's face it, if you're using a corpse as cover you're in an unpredictable and desperate situation where luck will be the deciding factor :)

[walker 0]

Imagine Left4Dead without Ragdolls:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiZ8au860AE

Hi Fireball

Left4Dead Maximum number of players in MP is just 8.

I also understand Ragdoll for player entities caused a lot of problems for Valve

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1852664

but thank you Fireball for an excelent example of why not to use Ragdoll and yet another example of why it don't work in MP.

Kind Regards walker

[mrcash2009 0]

Wonder how much protection and arm or leg would really give against high powered weaponry anyways...

Its called "Arma".

[-)rStrangelove 0]

Body position sync is important in ArmA for all the reasons already laid out: cover, raiding, immersion. It might be argued that body pose is also important if someone wishes to use a body as cover (something I've never done as I simply never expected a body to provide anything other than concealment and is therefore useless in that regard). But sensitive netcoding can make the cover abilities be calculated from the client being hit, or by the shooter, or by the server. Either way, the vagaries of the bullet-stopping powers of flabby flesh can be seen as somewhat unpredictable, just as in real life. Let's face it, if you're using a corpse as cover you're in an unpredictable and desperate situation where luck will be the deciding factor :)

True. Something that would be even more of an issue would be the reviving part. Some player dropped unconsious with ragdoll fx, so he could end up in a totally different position on his local pc than on the server / on somebody else's pc. When a medic comes along he might have problems finding the right healing spot.

[rye1 22]

Quote:

"Wonder how much protection and arm or leg would really give against high powered weaponry anyways... "

It could easily severe an artery which would be extremely painful and cause the body to lose a lot of blood, therefore blood pressure and less oxygen getting to brain which could easily cause the body to collapse into shock, unconsciousness and over a short period of time depending on whether bleeding is controlled, death.

It is severing through all the soft tissue in your limbs, it can easily fracture and fragment bone into the wound tract - though it does have positives because it isn't hitting the vital organs.

[dmarkwick 261]

Hi Fireball

Left4Dead Maximum number of players in MP is just 8.

I also understand Ragdoll for player entities caused a lot of problems for Valve

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1852664

but thank you Fireball for an excelent example of why not to use Ragdoll and yet another example of why it don't work in MP.

Kind Regards walker

So you're maintaining your stance that because X game has not employed a successful MP ragdoll system, that it is a bad and fundamentally unworkable idea? I'm happy that you don't work for BIS Walker ;) :D

If developers in general held opinions that a problem not solved yet is unsolvable, there would be no advancements at all. It's all well and good learning a certain amount on any given topic, but if you're then unable to process new information that changes that knowledge, you get activity like this thread, which only exists to repeat your own opinion. IMO ;)

And I'm certainly not going to take on board the inane mutterings of an arcade game forum thread as any kind of argument, either for or against.

Edited May 25, 2011 by DMarkwick

[walker 0]

Hi DMarkwick

It is not that I am against experimentation or innovation.

Once again, if you care to look back in my history with regard to modding the various versions of the RV engine, you will see that I have been involved in several firsts in the RV engine.

It is that I understand the computational and programming cost of Ragdoll. It consumes a lot of these resources and if a game producer like BIS has not the courage to ignore the Masses because they are always right.

Yeh Right!

Then you get a game like Codies Drech.

I spent a lot of time telling people to do the math on that, they ignored it until they were almost at release only to have to drop most of its functionality, all because of the wrong choice of an overly burdensome physics engine.

The Mass of people are no always right. If the mass of people were right we would never have discovered the world was flat or that the earth moves round the sun etc. Because in each of those cases the Masses thought the world was flat and the sun went round the earth and on down through the history of discovery, innovation and invention.

I argue this, not because it is making me friends, because clearly it is not, but because I have actually looked into it and done the math and come to the conclusion that as our understanding of physics stands and with the technology available it cannot work in MP. And Believe me when I say I do monitor this and try to keep up with innovations in it, but i have seen an awful lot of we have Ragdoll working in MP claims only to find that they were not.

As I said I think the concept of using a single point particle physics has some validity though I would do all in my power to simplify and refine it so as to reduce its load on an RV engine cycle.

As to full ragdoll it is non deterministic. I suspect the people involved with VBS are arguing against it as it would break the AAR and would never pass VV&A.

I do see a validity in increasing the number of death animations to say somewhere in the region of 200 plus also that some of them should end in postures similar to those adopted by live entities. Some knelt with gun deaths would be useful as would some laid with gun pointing as if sniping. Eg if shot in those positions then death should reflect that.

And I see the use of a ragdoll physics virtual Motion capture studio to supplement the number of death animations as a sensible use of resources especially if trying to mass produce death animations.

BUT as you can see despite: insults, screaming fits and making many upset; I still remain to be convinced that ragdoll can be achieved using our current technology and under our current understanding of real world physics.

Kind Regards walker

Edited May 25, 2011 by walker
spelling & grammar

[Fireball 16]

I unsubscribed from this thread, waste of time and nerves.

[NeMeSiS 11]

I unsubscribed from this thread, waste of time and nerves.

Its quite alright if you just ignore Walker, which is what you should always do when he embarks on another crusade.

[Fireball 16]

Hi Fireball

Left4Dead Maximum number of players in MP is just 8.

but thank you Fireball for an excelent example of why not to use Ragdoll and yet another example of why it don't work in MP.

I've counted up many great examples before L4D, but you chose to ignore it - you only want to see what you want to see.

[walker 0]

I've counted up many great examples before L4D, but you chose to ignore it - you only want to see what you want to see.

Hi Fireball

How many players in Left For Dead?

Kind Regards walker

[CyclonicTuna 87]

Bodies fall when shot dead.

That is all.

Really? Also when shot with lets say...a 105 mm howitzer. Or when hit by a 30 mm canon round from a APC? Even when shot with the powerfull 50 caliber sniper round a limb could fling off and fly a couple of yards. Modern warfare is all about physics mate

[Mr. Charles 22]

There are servers for L4D2, which hold 20 players. BFBC2 and BF3 hold more players (up to 64 in BF3) and have ragdoll too. Medics can revive the bodies, so some sync must be done.