Scopes

[otarius-big 16]

plzzz make in game maximum animations, go down from choper or air transport or from buildings ,wals or from other on rope,

[Primarch 10]

What I would do is: make the scope the real screen and use low resolution RTT technique to create the "blur" around the scope.

[onlyrazor 11]

plzzz make in game maximum animations, go down from choper or air transport or from buildings ,wals or from other on rope,

What? :confused: I think you're on the wrong thread here, bud.

[Uberduderofdoomer 10]

I agree they should make the scopes a bit trippier. But when I read the thread title, I thought you were asking what kinds of scopes people would want to see.

So, just wondering, what kinds of scopes are people hoping to see? Are there any frequently used scopes that havent been in practically every game around? Or any not frequently used scopes?

Edited July 6, 2011 by Uberduderofdoomer

[Mr. Charles 22]

What I would do is: make the scope the real screen and use low resolution RTT technique to create the "blur" around the scope.

That'd actually make sense ;)

[vinc3nt 10]

What I would do is: make the scope the real screen and use low resolution RTT technique to create the "blur" around the scope.

This is probably the best way to implement the feature (in terms of performance - which is very important in the ArmA series)

[dysta 10]

This is probably the best way to implement the feature (in terms of performance - which is very important in the ArmA series)

That would be like this way:

1X (No Zoom at all)

4X (Rifle Scope zooming)

[rallyolle 10]

Yes please!

and i pretty much played arma2 without ACE first time today. and all I do is play sniper.

Please simulate wind in arma 3, more effort into scopes in general make the mils real exact. let us dope the scopes, everything you can do irl.

also I want to manually pull the bolt on boltaction snipers. with another leftclick after the shot or some kind of hold button and move mouse could perhaps be real immersive actually. add both!

[RealationGames 10]

Hello, it's that Realation Games developer from http://www.youtube.com/user/RealationGames here! I found myself here from Youtube insight and I thought to join in the conversation to clarify possible speculations...

There is one major down side with the real scope system because it needs another camera for the scope, and that means a lot of more rendered pixels on top of the original stuff.

Because if the player plays on 1920x1080 resolution, there has to be another 512x512 with shader-, postprocessing, etc. effects for the scope also. It will drastically reduce FPS if not compensated by reducing graphical quality for the environment camera.

It can be done efficently if grass/detail objects are hidden for the environement camera which is slightly blurred anyways. Blur shading itself isn't a problem for computers nowadays. DOF shader on the other hand is quite more heavy.

I can't see why it wouldn't work if rendering to texture is possible, just lay another camera render with smaller FOV on the lens, piece of cake.

Optimizing the thing is problem, so I wouldn't blame them not having the real deal with the graphical quality of ARMA.

also I want to manually pull the bolt on boltaction snipers. with another leftclick after the shot or some kind of hold button and move mouse could perhaps be real immersive actually.

That sounds like a neat idea, I'll experiment with that someday. I've also thought about mechanic that you need to center the shooters head to the correct position for scope by moving the mouse to move the head.

I myself need also add the distortion effect and heavy motion blur for the scope, they are crucial for the immersion. Also make fully operational optical shadow with the sweet spot.

But hit me up if you have any questions about the mechanics or have any experiments I could fiddle with in my engine to come up with new working innovations.

ARMA definently needs atleast the Project Reality type of sniper scope, animated scope adjustment etc.

[BobcatBob 10]

There's only one camera in every FPS games. No real 2-eyes visions which is doubled together into one screen, and never forget that you can move closer the scope to become a classic style scope aiming.

What about when you play a game in 3D?

[dysta 10]

What about when you play a game in 3D?

That's Stereoscopy vision. Yes, it can simulate two-eyes vision by giving stereo displays to proper eyes, but it cannon simulate the FPS character's vision due to the rendering, if the game is only rendering by single camera only, even the display can chop it into stereo vision, it cannot completely giving the experience compare to 2 real human eyes looking at real world surrounding.

---------- Post added at 04:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 AM ----------

Hello, it's that Realation Games developer from http://www.youtube.com/user/RealationGames here! I found myself here from Youtube insight and I thought to join in the conversation to clarify possible speculations...

There is one major down side with the real scope system because it needs another camera for the scope, and that means a lot of more rendered pixels on top of the original stuff.

Because ...

I can't see why it wouldn't work if rendering to texture is possible, just lay another camera render with smaller FOV on the lens, piece of cake.

Optimizing the thing is problem, so I wouldn't blame them not having the real deal with the graphical quality of ARMA.

ARMA definently needs atleast the Project Reality type of sniper scope, animated scope adjustment etc.

Hello RealationGames! I've seen your YT video footages about your development of the sniper simulation game. I like your way to develop the scope a lot, but of course that's really a problem if giving multiple rendering into one screen, even the high-end display cards that's still cannot multi-rendering unlike the multi-processing CPUs.

Maybe there's be a technology that's the scope rendering by using global illumination and reflective light source? Like making the render camera to only collect light reflections instead of the whole 3D world. That's a neat method to simulate the method of human-eyes functionality, and doesn't require multi-rendering to specific object/texture, the light source will distort, reflect, refract, amplify and contract by using specific transparent object to change the direction of the optic.

But that's still too advance and extremely hard to be achieved in real-time rendering... *sigh*

[RealationGames 10]

That's Stereoscopy vision. Yes, it can simulate two-eyes vision by giving stereo displays to proper eyes, but it cannon simulate the FPS character's vision due to the rendering, if the game is only rendering by single camera only, even the display can chop it into stereo vision, it cannot completely giving the experience compare to 2 real human eyes looking at real world surrounding.

---------- Post added at 04:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 AM ----------

Hello RealationGames! I've seen your YT video footages about your development of the sniper simulation game. I like your way to develop the scope a lot, but of course that's really a problem if giving multiple rendering into one screen, even the high-end display cards that's still cannot multi-rendering unlike the multi-processing CPUs.

Maybe there's be a technology that's the scope rendering by using global illumination and reflective light source? Like making the render camera to only collect light reflections instead of the whole 3D world. That's a neat method to simulate the method of human-eyes functionality, and doesn't require multi-rendering to specific object/texture, the light source will distort, reflect, refract, amplify and contract by using specific transparent object to change the direction of the optic.

But that's still too advance and extremely hard to be achieved in real-time rendering... *sigh*

I'm not sure if I got it right, but afaik that would be only possible in ray tracing(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_tracing_%28graphics%29), which has been only experimental in real time engines.

There is "zooming shader", but it really just zooms in to the already rendered pixels, which is practically like strecthing the image larger in paint.

It is not about "multi-rendering"(which actually means just multi-GPU cofigurations, like SLI or Crossfire), but just because there is 260 000 pixels more needed to render for 512x512 scope. Pretty much like increasing resolution. Multiple cameras has been used for many many years in games, including in mirrors, CCTV camera screens etc. it's not really a problem.

I got drop from 250 to 140(oh crap my game is slow) when scoped, which is really massive indeed. But it's really without any single optimizations made, like reducing object LOD for the main camera.

There would be no way to make such scope without quite heavy performance loss.

[SaBrE_UK 0]

First of all, I know it's unlikely and maybe years off but I can dream! The following list shows [some] real life pros and cons for the three main rifle sight types:

Ironsight pros and cons:

+ Reliable

+ Adjustable

- Focussing on front sight can mean shooter loses track of enemy

- Front and rear sights can easily misalign, especially after movement, suppression, nearby explosion etc.

- Takes time and effort to realign front and rear sights

- Have to shoot with one eye closed, thereby losing situational awareness

- Can be slow to take aim

Reflector sights pros and cons:

+ User can aim with both eyes open increasing situational awareness

+ Fast to take aim as reticle shows where bullet will impact (or near enough) meaning no alignment of front and rear sights is necessary

+ Can focus on target instead of front sight, meaning greater awareness of target

+ Allows for more precise shooting that ironsights

- Perhaps not as reliable as ironsights

- Not ideal for different ranges

- Reticle brightness needs tweaking from daylight to night

Magnified scope pros and cons:

+ Magnification allows for most precise shooting and detailed view

+ Adjustable

- Not ideal for close quarters

- One eye shut so situational awareness is low

- Can take time to take aim depending on magnification

Any more pros and cons you can think of feel free to correct me.

My attempt to simulate the above is thus, as an animated gif first showing ironsights, secondly a reflector sight and finally a scope view:

(Click for bigger)

Iron sights have a blurred rear sight and background, with front sight in focus. In game it could be that the background isn't blurred as this could be too annoying and artificial. Reflector sights are transparent as you can use both eyes. I find that the edges of the sight are easier to distinguish Background is also not out of focus. With scopes the background is out of focus, but the scope view is very clear. When eye is moved away from viewing position, view should be obscured.

Even more accurately for the reflector sight is the following image:

(click for bigger)

Shown is both the simulated right eye's view as well as left eye's view. Where the two views overlap, the background is obscured as per real life. However, this could be disorientating for the player as the two images overlap and bob around.

...I can hope...

Edited July 28, 2011 by SaBrE_UK

[Smurf 12]

What Sabre_UK

+

This. But not with times.

An idea, based in the Resistance and Liberation system:

• General\normal stance = holding the rifle at hip\low\whatever. Fast moving. Big floating zone.
  
• RMB click = bring weapon to shoulder, not aiming throught ironsights, both eyes open. Somekind of 2D HUD to simulate holographic\aimdot ability to aim with both eyes open. In scopes\ACOG = "small" view area using RTT. Not so fast moving. Small floating zone.
  
• RMB Hold = Full screen sights, like what we have today. More stady, slow moving. No floating zone.
  

All with 3rd person proper animations.

Something like

or

.

EDIT:

.

=

All my hopes!

Sorry for crosspost, but the subject is the same.

[dmarkwick 261]

Shown is both the simulated right eye's view as well as left eye's view. Where the two views overlap, the background is obscured as per real life. However, this could be disorientating for the player as the two images overlap and bob around.

My first reaction was to dismiss these images, but, you're right :)

However, I don't think the gaming world is ready for simulated doubling up of nearby objects. too many people would simply not understand it.

[twisted 128]

Ironsight pros and cons:

+ Reliable

+ Adjustable

- Focussing on front sight can mean shooter loses track of enemy

- Front and rear sights can easily misalign, especially after movement, suppression, nearby explosion etc.

- Takes time and effort to realign front and rear sights

- Have to shoot with one eye closed, thereby losing situational awareness

- Can be slow to take aim

Reflector sights pros and cons:

+ User can aim with both eyes open increasing situational awareness

+ Fast to take aim as reticle shows where bullet will impact (or near enough) meaning no alignment of front and rear sights is necessary

+ Can focus on target instead of front sight, meaning greater awareness of target

+ Allows for more precise shooting that ironsights

- Perhaps not as reliable as ironsights

- Not ideal for different ranges

- Reticle brightness needs tweaking from daylight to night

Magnified scope pros and cons:

+ Magnification allows for most precise shooting and detailed view

+ Adjustable

- Not ideal for close quarters

- One eye shut so situational awareness is low

- Can take time to take aim depending on magnification

well thought through and would be awesome. i also hope for these type of changes. that doubling up of images is too far imo but your first examples are a good step in what could be.

Edited July 29, 2011 by twisted

[SaBrE_UK 0]

that doubling up of images is too far imo but your first examples are a good step in what could be.

However, I don't think the gaming world is ready for simulated doubling up of nearby objects. too many people would simply not understand it.

Yes I'd agree it's questionable, but if done better than me and more unobtrusively it could work imo. However, it certainly isn't worth the time it would take to create as of yet. Maybe VBS6 will have it?

I think the other features I discussed are reproducible and beneficial, including transparency on reflector sights and perhaps the quick 'mouse squiggle' to realign ironsights (what do you think?).

Not sure how to simulate the focus on the front ironsight and not on target without really annoying the player. Any ideas? Maybe the background is still out of focus, but not immediately in front of the sights, so you can still focus on front sight and enemy, just not periphery.

[dmarkwick 261]

Yes I'd agree it's questionable, but if done better than me and more unobtrusively it could work imo. However, it certainly isn't worth the time it would take to create as of yet. Maybe VBS6 will have it?

If you get yourself some anaglyph red/cyan 3D glasses you can use the free IZ3D drivers and you will play in *actual* 3D, with the effect on the scope just as you illustrated. You need to fiddle the settings to get a good divergence but for a day's worth of entertainment (it quickly gets tiring) it's worth it.

I think the other features I discussed are reproducible and beneficial, including transparency on reflector sights and perhaps the quick 'mouse squiggle' to realign ironsights (what do you think?).

Blurring & transparency is good, but I'd assume my ingame avatar to be able to handle the ironsight alignment automatically, as he's a supposed trained soldier.

Not sure how to simulate the focus on the front ironsight and not on target without really annoying the player. Any ideas? Maybe the background is still out of focus, but not immediately in front of the sights, so you can still focus on front sight and enemy, just not periphery.

IMO the focus should be on the target not the front sight. So some DoF on the ironsights might be appropriate. But to be honest I'm fine without DoF in games, it's difficult to implement properly as you cannot know what the player will decide to look at.

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Blurring & transparency is good, but I'd assume my ingame avatar to be able to handle the ironsight alignment automatically, as he's a supposed trained soldier.

I would subscribe to this as long as the alignment isn't always perfect like it is in Arma. Having the weapon subtly out of alignment in most situations, leading to a small lack of precision would be good, and staying still for a few seconds, resting your weapon or going prone should allow the 'perfect' alignment Arma has currently. I just think it'd be better having front sight sway than the whole weapon sway whilst alignment is still perfect. Maybe holding breath/focus mode brings the sights into better alignment?

IMO the focus should be on the target not the front sight. So some DoF on the ironsights might be appropriate. But to be honest I'm fine without DoF in games, it's difficult to implement properly as you cannot know what the player will decide to look at.

Apparently (I have not used a rifle myself) people have to focus on the front sight to align, then afterwards on the target. This is slower than a reflector sight, of course. Maybe a short time (less that a second) where the background is out of focus could simulate this and make reflector sights more advantageous in-game.

With these ideas realistic variance between ironsights would affect the gameplay, too, with rifle sights being more accurate than pistol sights due to the distance between the front and back sights. Also, for instance, an out-of-focus self-illuminated front sight would be easier to keep aligned than a black front sight in a dark setting.

[Beagle 684]

Regarding iron sights, Most western Rifles with iron sights don't use the open type but diopter sights. With open sights you keep the sight in focus and have the target blurry...yes it is that way, you also do this with pistols for maximum precision....Diopter sights allow you to have the sight and the target in focus, but diopters do not work in low light conditions thats why the 100m mark is usually a open sight (M16, G3, FN-FAL etc.)

In fact the old OFP 2D sight textures where often more real looking.

3D does not make the game look more realistic an any case, because it is still 2D on a tiny screen.

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Interesting. Thanks Beagle.

[BobcatBob 10]

Regarding iron sights, Most western Rifles with iron sights don't use the open type but diopter sights. With open sights you keep the sight in focus and have the target blurry...yes it is that way, you also do this with pistols for maximum precision....Diopter sights allow you to have the sight and the target in focus, but diopters do not work in low light conditions thats why the 100m mark is usually a open sight (M16, G3, FN-FAL etc.)

In fact the old OFP 2D sight textures where often more real looking.

3D does not make the game look more realistic an any case, because it is still 2D on a tiny screen.

The game-world itself is still modeled in 3d so I don't see why not (if you have a 3d monititor, maybe one that is curved wouldn't it look fine with 3d enabled? TBH I've seen several movies that have conivincing 3d that actually adds to the experiance that are not displayed on a huge OR curved screen like in iMAX)

[RSharpe 0]

I'd really like to see two-eye shooting for ACOGs, like they're meant to be used in real life, instead of the current system where it's circular view and black background.

I'm not sure it's possible but could the Biden Aiming Concept be modeled in 2D? It can probably be done a stereoscopic system using Nvidia 3D.

[dmarkwick 261]

I'd really like to see two-eye shooting for ACOGs, like they're meant to be used in real life, instead of the current system where it's circular view and black background.

I'm not sure it's possible but could the Biden Aiming Concept be modeled in 2D? It can probably be done a stereoscopic system using Nvidia 3D.

For the price of some red/cyan glasses, you can try it out for yourself:

IZ3D provide a free 3D driver that works great in ArmA2. I've tried it and it works pretty well, although I don't use it now. Only really good for a few days of entertainment, it's tiring playing in 3D.

You can set up the drivers so that you get exactly the seperation you want, in ArmA's case I found it useful to slightly exaggerate the inter-ocular distance to enhance the 3D effect, and also to offset only the left eye, so that the right eye is still lined up for the ironsights/holosights.

[BobcatBob 10]

For the price of some red/cyan glasses, you can try it out for yourself:

IZ3D provide a free 3D driver that works great in ArmA2. I've tried it and it works pretty well, although I don't use it now. Only really good for a few days of entertainment, it's tiring playing in 3D.

You can set up the drivers so that you get exactly the seperation you want, in ArmA's case I found it useful to slightly exaggerate the inter-ocular distance to enhance the 3D effect, and also to offset only the left eye, so that the right eye is still lined up for the ironsights/holosights.

When you say tiring do mean it gives or a headache or actually makes you feel drowsy?