Stealth Kills?

[liquidpinky 11]

I had to look this up and they have the concept spot on. Give it the next sequel and it'll be great. Currently judging via videos it looks a bit... buggy and awkward. Then again... all MP combat does at some point.

It was actually very fluent and intuitive to play, the vids do it no justice.

You never wanted to be stuck in a room with someone who specialised their character solely on the CQC fighting techniques and you could also mix and match a bit of gun specialisation with hand to hand so you weren't completely scuppered if someone took your gun off you.

As for bugs, MGS4 was a master-class in how to make a game, very occasional patch if some rare exploit came up online or only for adding content.

Although the games complexities are nowhere near as much as those as in Arma, the BIS devs do have their work cut out for them.

I firmly believe A3 needs some form of melee, even if all it does is stagger someone enough for you to get your sights on them and take them out that way.

Also more effective suppressors, possibly adding in (again) a system like in MG3 where the baffles deteriorate and eventually become useless after extended usage.

There has to be a balance over just using a more conventional suppressor or flash hiders etc.

[Feint 137]

Personally i am a fan of melee combat system and i am willing to help out on animations side whoever will be taking on the knives (or any kind of melee weapon for that matter) :))

I'll take you up on that offer. I just released a close combat module here:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?152403-PUSH-amp-KILL-Close-combat-module

But you don't need knives or other melee weapons. Self-defense animations and other martial arts animations would do just fine.

[John Kozak 14]

I am sorry for intruding, but there is at least one scenario when knives will be useful: taking down a guard (usually from behind). And that's one of things Russian "marines" (деÑант) train at. I've got a relative who actually served in it, so the information is not from COD. This is also described in many Russian military memoirs.

And, of course, people are trained to do it with near 100% certainty.

Hence, at least one thing some people point at as CoDish exists in real life and is part of real military training. How can that be not realistic?

[KrazyBee 8]

Y it is so hard for people to admit that cqc does work in real life.have u ever heard of Gurkhas??read some of the things that they did to japs and Germans in ww2.they used their weapon called khukuri to kill the enemy in cqc,stealth and full on action.and about me knowing this stuff,is cuz my both grandfathers served in the famed brigade of gurkhas in ww2 and falkland.so quit being a retard and stop saying "u never served in military"bs. Cuz u don't need to serve in a military to know about cqc genius.

[rye1 21]

Every armed force DO NOT have it to some degree in their training full stop.

You're talking out of your ass.

If you're an infantryman you see combat and training differently from an artilleryman and very differently from a war planner. Everyone has their different perception on both training and combat. Tracking as an example, it's not taught to everyone - the same goes with the medical training PJ's go through which basically puts some of them between a PA and a paramedic, that's more than most in the Military. Some units are even getting taught Phillipino Martial Arts and Stick Fighting techniques, kali, arnis and such. That's solely America. If we jump to other Militaries around the world you'll see it used and taught more commonly. The Chinese and the Russians especially. Role comes into play.

Your combatives program (presuming that you're American) is getting an overhaul as we speak by those with melee kills in current theaters of war, including by overseas advisers. See it depends also on the theater and future theaters as well as your role. Afghanistan and Iraq lacked the use of such and therefore basic training was modified, excluding what was previously taught (at least to most units and during basic). But if we look at Vietnam and Korea, the Green Berets even taught the use of blowpipes and crossbows in their training scheme to match their surroundings and possible events on top of the melee, sentry neutralization, knife and hand-to-hand skills; Michael D. Echanis was a big part of that and some of what he taught lives on today.

You may want to take a read of, "The Green Beret Combat Course: Training the Elite Fighter for War", written by Chief Warrant Officer James M. Webb, Blaise Loong and Sergeant John S. Joyce. Two of the names there being combat veterans and instructors for the Special Forces Combatives Course.

"Sentry neutralization is taught utilizing empty-hand, garrote, and knife techniques. Not only are the actual killing movements taught and practiced, but also the philosophy of close quarter termination, stealth, stalking, visual domination, spring power, timing, environmental control and spontaneous reactions (both of yourself and the sentry target) Realism in all situations in stressed to its heighest point. Two-man sentry neutralization techniques are presented for absolute control of an armed guard."

Another good read in that era is below, cited in the article "Dagger of the Green Beret" on Tactical-Life's website.

"In Hans Halberstadt’s book War Stories of the Green Berets, The Viet Nam Experience Caviani gives a personal account of a couple of his own experiences with the Gerber MK-II. The first involved the extremely rare circumstance where a sentry was actually taken out with a thrown knife. As Jon tells it, he was well known for practicing knife throwing in camp but he really wasn’t expecting to need to put that skill to use in the field. The North Vietnamese Army (NVA) sentry was on the far side of a road (Ho Chi Min Trail) and no one wanted to try to cross the open ground to eliminate him. His team leader motioned for Jon to throw his knife and, at first, he shook his head “no.†The team leader again stressed he had to take the sentry out. Calculating the throw, and fully charged with adrenaline, he let fly at the enemy solider. To his relief, the knife buried itself to the hilt in the enemy’s back and the sentry dropped without a sound!

Even in elite units, that one cold steel kill would normally have been the rare exception to multiple tours of heavy combat, but not for Sergeant Major Caviani. His next chance to put the Gerber to work was actually during the same action that he won the Congressional Medal of Honor for. In June of 1971 the NVA over ran Radio Relay Site Hickory north of Khe Sanh and he had the misfortune of being one of its small group of defenders. He was in a bunker when two NVA entered, one unarmed and one with an AK-47. Thinking fast, he stabbed the dagger into the throat of the one with rifle, while his partner stitched the other up the front with 20 rounds from an M16.

A few seconds later the NVA logically threw a grenade in the bunker and Jon decided to play dead, which, given the extent of his shrapnel wounds, wasn’t hard to do. He hid under some cardboard in the bunker but an enemy soldier lifted it to see what was concealed there. Without the slightest hesitation, Caviani drove the Gerber into his sternum all the way into his spine. The only problem was he could not free the knife from the body.

He managed to escape the camp and evade the NVA for another 11 days before a local Viet Cong captured him. As mentioned earlier, he spent 23 months as a prisoner of the communists and received our country’s highest honor for his bravery in the camp. Returning to duty in the states, he became one of the first senior noncommissioned officer (NCO) serving with Operational Detachment Delta. Any knife is only as good as the man behind it and Jon Caviani proved over and over he was one of the best."

This is also described in many Russian military memoirs.

I've read some reports on specifically hand-to-hand in WW2 with the Russians. Some intense events and figures. If you've ever read "On the topic of Hand-to-Hand Combat" by Captain S. Feldman, it's a small article but it puts together a number of polled veterans with confirmed experience and categorizes it. The entrenching tool is basically apart of the subculture there, they're far more involved in melee than we are.

"According to the same poll, 822 reconnaissance troops used the following in combat with enemy units or troops: knife-dagger stabs (182 incidents), bayonet strikes (92 incidents), buttstock blows (86), an unarmed struggle of one man vs. several opponents (61 incidents), blows with the entrenching tool (48), blows with other improvised means (34), unarmed single combat (18 incidents), and other means (57). These numbers point to the special quality of reconnaissance action: the dagger-knife is the most popular here. We must clearly engage in special training for reconnaissance men."

And if you've ever read, "Knife Combat: Version of the Spetsnaz GRU" by Alexander Popov, he gives a good account on the why with no in-between.

"In a combat training of Spetsnaz soldiers a great attention is paid to their ability to engage in hand-to-hand combat and to use hand-held weapon aswell as various expedients. The main mission of a Spetsnaz fighter in a Close Combat [situation] is to destroy the enemy with any available means as quickly as possible despite their arms and superior number. The fighter himself should not be seriously affected, otherwise he could jeopardize the achievement of a fighting mission by his reconnaissance/sabotage team. That's why the combat training of a fighter from the Spetsnaz is aimed at gaining a flawless proficiency in many types of fire arms and cold steel and traditionally a combat knife is of special importance among them."

[bangtail 0]

I've been in plenty of situations throughout the OFP/Arma series where I was close enough for a 'knife strike' but was forced to resort to the silenced pistol/rifle.

It's definitely not unrealistic and is heavily documented throughout history.

Of course we don't want any Rambo/CoD BS but I do think that this could be implemented tastefully and in the spirit of the OFP/ArmA series.

JM2C

[Jex 1]

you complained before about lack of arguments ? And THIS is your argument ? Please......

There hasn't been a coherent argument in this thread to begin with and since i'm talking from EXPERIENCE - you know, that real life thing as opposed to all you armchair warriors that sit at home and watch movies and read unverified accounts from books of course you guys would know the difference and know what kind of training we all receive and then come out with statements of facts.

What you want is movie type kills which in reality do not exist, at least not in anyway that makes it meaningful (yes perhaps a few times in history this has happened but on the whole, given the thousands of operations that have been undertaken a "stealth kill" probably, if at all, makes up 0.000001% of them.

According to people such as yourselves, we're all Ninja warriors with the ability to sneak up on targets and just slit their throats so easily and quietly that you don't actually realise how insulting you are being.

---------- Post added at 11:13 ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 ----------

Your combatives program (presuming that you're American)

You presumed wrong.

You may want to take a read

Long list of books and authors all of which speak big and fancy words

Some sections of the armed forces train in hand to hand combat. That doesn't mean they employ them as a rule. It's so asinine I don't know where to begin. To think that there's missions that require people to go into enemy territory and start knifing people is hilarious - not to mention how easily you could blow your cover and that of the entire mission.

But I admit it is great in movies and good for selling a few more books.

[rye1 21]

Nobody said movie kills. You're just stating what's not been said. How smart and original of you.

To think that there's missions that require people to go into enemy territory and start knifing people is hilarious

Who said that? Again... Nobody. Again, no argument and only perception and opinion based off what I have never stated or even suggested. Good luck with that.

[Jex 1]

Nobody said movie kills. You're just stating what's not been said. How smart and original of you.

Who said that? Again... Nobody. Again, no argument and only perception and opinion based off what I have never stated or even suggested. Good luck with that.

Well fortunately it isn't going to be added in so I guess the point is moot.

[rye1 21]

Another great argument. Can you read me my future too?

[Arcani 1]

Jex, please, you obviously have left all sense at the door to this thread.

Close quarters combat is something that exists everywhere in the world:

Modern usage

Military systems

In 2002, the U.S. Army adopted the Modern Army Combatives (MAC) hand-to-hand combat training program with the publishing of US Army field manual (FM 3-25.150) and the establishment of the US Army Combatives School at Ft Benning, Georgia.

The US Air Force adopted MAC as its hand-to-hand combat system in early 2008.

In the U.S. Marine Corps, Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) replaced the Marine Corps LINE combat system in 2002. Each Marine keeps a record book that records their training, and a colored belt system (tan, gray, green, brown, and black in order of precedence) is used to denote experience and skill level, similar to many Asian martial arts.

While close combat doesn't occur in every battle (for example in fields or mountainous terrain with open ground) it can happen in more enclosed environments like cities (almost always will there be some kind of 'hand-to-hand', which can include weapons, jungles/forests (in the event of an ambush) or rocky ravines.

WE ARE NOT, saying that there will be people running across fields braving enemy fire just to run up and bayonet everyone because that wouldn't happen unless there is a massive charge from both sides, which, again, would be unlikely unless there was communication between both forces, for example an inner clan/unit PvP battle.

WE ARE saying that there should be a chance that you can sneak up on lone sentries and kill them so your forces can get up closer before the enemy spots you. However, the sentry CAN spot you, raise the alarm and ruin the element of surprise.

[Variable 322]

There are also incidents in history where infantry soldiers were extracted to safety on the skids of a cobra gunship, and some gunship pilots also trained on it. That doesn't mean that BIS needs to add skid seating slots on their Cobras, does it?

Rye, lets try to be more constructive. How about you outline here a high-level spec for a feature that adds knife attacks to Arma? One that will not be exploited like bunny hops are and will be complex enough to use all (or enough of) the variables you mentioned in this thread.

Comrades in Arms website

Try my SP/COOP mission: Bitter Memories

[Jex 1]

Another great argument. Can you read me my future too?

Your argument sucked to begin with, how could any argument coming from that be great? i've already argued the reality of stealth kills, if you don't like them that's not my fault you cannot deal with reality, and certainly not going to sway it with BIS (well I hope not) when the coding would time consuming and there's more important things to work on - as has already been said over and over in this thread by other people.

But sure give us another quote from a former spetsnaz soldier trying to sell his books.

---------- Post added at 16:58 ---------- Previous post was at 16:28 ----------

Jex, please, you obviously have left all sense at the door to this thread.

Close quarters combat is something that exists everywhere in the world:

WE ARE saying that there should be a chance that you can sneak up on lone sentries and kill them so your forces can get up closer before the enemy spots you. However, the sentry CAN spot you, raise the alarm and ruin the element of surprise.

OMG......

OK let me try and spell it out for you. That kind of training is going to be useful where you are fighting close quarters, it is only meant to help a soldier in a situation where it gets to a situation that he cannot effectively use his rifle when a battle is already going on and you are doing FIBUA to begin with.

Then in the next sentence you try to make out that it is relevant to sneaking up on a lone sentry (what, is he in a field just standing there?) as if this training has something to do with sneaking as well. People do not sneak up on lone sentries in RL - if he's that alone you would go around him - the chance of being found out is way too high to risk it - like I said, some people have been watching too many movies.

If there were that many RL missions that had soldiers training to sneak up on them to slit their throats, again something that the movies portray as being easy, then the army would employ the use of crossbows or bow, or something else that could kill at range that was silent.

If you want movie style missions in arma then yes, you would want to have this ability. If you want real life then no, this is a waste of coding time, research time, testing time that could be spent on other things.

[EDcase 87]

ARMA is more simulation than any other FPS game but its purpose is ENTERTAINMENT.

If there is opportunity to sneak up on an enemy then there should be an option to take them out up close. Hopefully in the final game you should be able to hear someone walking behind you so it won't be easy. That would make it even more challenging and FUN.

[Arcani 1]

OK let me try and spell it out for you. That kind of training is going to be useful where you are fighting close quarters, it is only meant to help a soldier in a situation where it gets to a situation that he cannot effectively use his rifle when a battle is already going on and you are doing FIBUA to begin with.

Then in the next sentence you try to make out that it is relevant to sneaking up on a lone sentry (what, is he in a field just standing there?) as if this training has something to do with sneaking as well. People do not sneak up on lone sentries in RL - if he's that alone you would go around him - the chance of being found out is way too high to risk it - like I said, some people have been watching too many movies.

If there were that many RL missions that had soldiers training to sneak up on them to slit their throats, again something that the movies portray as being easy, then the army would employ the use of crossbows or bow, or something else that could kill at range that was silent.

If you want movie style missions in arma then yes, you would want to have this ability. If you want real life then no, this is a waste of coding time, research time, testing time that could be spent on other things.

Crossbow: ranged, what can you not do in a ranged position?

1- Aim effectively, even with modern day equipment, you still have to account for less velocity therefore higher bolt drop rate, wind deviation.

2- Though they make less sound than a silenced gun you still have a 'twang' when firing and 'thud' when the bolt impacts, a 'schlut' sound when the skin in broken and bodily fluids are rerouted to the wound and another louder 'thud' when they fall over.

3- Even though you're farther away you're still pretty close to be able to use a crossbow effectively, some 100-200m, and the enemy might hear your bow go off

4- Crossbows are bulky and generally ineffective in most (if not all) situations

Knife:

1- You CAN aim effectively, unless there is a struggle

2- A trained operative can easily cover a sentries mouth while slicing the throat and then lower the body to the ground

3- Yes you're close, and the enemy has a higher chance of detecting you

4- Knives are small and are already part of any soldiers equipment (mainly for survival and tool use but still sharp and big enough to cut a throat or break through ribs)

Also, who said that the sentry was standing in the middle of a field?

BASES have sentries, both stationary and patrolling, around them, usually some 40-200m away. These sentries are there at ALL TIMES, and though there might be some in towers or other defensive structures within the base itself, the outer sentries can spot things more easily, especially if the base is located in a forest or other place with a lot of cover.

These sentries are there to provide AN EARLY WARNING, and any attack forces coming in will always have to take these sentries out so they DON'T GIVE AN EARLY WARNING and therefore ruin the surprise of a surprise attack which is meant to (surprise, surprise) surprise the enemy so they aren't ready.

IF THESE SENTRIES ARE ELIMINATED, the surprise attack will work and the enemy position will be overrun. BUT these sentries must be killed SILENTLY and STEALTHILY so the camp can't tell that they're gone, how you ask?

Well, a silenced gun might to the trick, but what if you're a scout alone and there are two of them placed far apart? A silenced gun might alert the second one, or it might not.

On the other hand, if you can sneak up on the first sentry and kill him silently (covering his mouth and lowering his body to the ground) you can kill the second one without worrying about alerting anyone else, provided you do it silently of course.

What I'm trying to get at here is that I would like for there to be close combat and stealth kills, why? Because it might make a scenario like the one above more interesting (if you're playing co-op you can do the gun or try to challenge yourself and make a double stealth kill).

Hopefully you understood me this time and read it completely (neither of which I got the impression you could or did do before).

-Arcani

[Arcani 1]

arma is more simulation than any other fps game but its purpose is entertainment.

If there is opportunity to sneak up on an enemy then there should be an option to take them out up close. Hopefully in the final game you should be able to hear someone walking behind you so it won't be easy. That would make it even more challenging and fun.

thank you

[ProfTournesol 956]

ARMA is more simulation than any other FPS game but its purpose is ENTERTAINMENT.

If there is opportunity to sneak up on an enemy then there should be an option to take them out up close. Hopefully in the final game you should be able to hear someone walking behind you so it won't be easy. That would make it even more challenging and FUN.

Fully supported.

[John Kozak 14]

There hasn't been a coherent argument in this thread to begin with and since i'm talking from EXPERIENCE - you know, that real life thing as opposed to all you armchair warriors that sit at home and watch movies and read unverified accounts from books of course you guys would know the difference and know what kind of training we all receive and then come out with statements of facts.

What you want is movie type kills which in reality do not exist, at least not in anyway that makes it meaningful (yes perhaps a few times in history this has happened but on the whole, given the thousands of operations that have been undertaken a "stealth kill" probably, if at all, makes up 0.000001% of them.

According to people such as yourselves, we're all Ninja warriors with the ability to sneak up on targets and just slit their throats so easily and quietly that you don't actually realise how insulting you are being.

---------- Post added at 11:13 ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 ----------

You presumed wrong.

Some sections of the armed forces train in hand to hand combat. That doesn't mean they employ them as a rule. It's so asinine I don't know where to begin. To think that there's missions that require people to go into enemy territory and start knifing people is hilarious - not to mention how easily you could blow your cover and that of the entire mission.

But I admit it is great in movies and good for selling a few more books.

Calling someone an armchair warrior is a good argument, no doubt.

May I ask you, how long is your military career in special operations unit, and how many kills are on your record?

[KrazyBee 8]

Yo guys don't u know jex is a CAG who did many badass operation all over the world.so how could u disagree wat he is stating.

[rye1 21]

i've already argued the reality

...What? By saying, 'Hi guys, never happens, trust me I know.'

People do not sneak up on lone sentries in RL

Yeah. Silent kills never happen. Sneaking up on sentries never happen.

Forget WW1/2/Oman/Vietnam/Korea. That's out of the equation. Silent kills never happen.

Everything is direct action, shoot everybody. And don't quote when it does happen, it never happens.

When you make absolute statements that aren't true or backed up, don't preach them. Your experience doesn't counter-act others who have done it, even if you keep miming the said books or events aren't credible. Credible information has been provided, you've provided nothing.

Rye, lets try to be more constructive. How about you outline here a high-level spec for a feature that adds knife attacks to Arma? One that will not be exploited like bunny hops are and will be complex enough to use all (or enough of) the variables you mentioned in this thread. [/url]

There's been plenty of suggestions in this thread, and some modders putting it to work, I suggest you look that up - that would be more constructive. I agree, it shouldn't be exploited like bunny hops. I agree on counter-acting a lot of the negative thoughts, including one-hit wonders but that's easier said than done and that from a development point of view would - to me - be something worked on later in the project. The start of a project you'd just want to get the ability to do it in game, then begin to work around the mechanics.

Yo guys don't u know jex is a CAG who did many badass operation all over the world.so how could u disagree wat he is stating.

Well, I guess he's Brit saying FIBUA. But hey... I hear CAG like their knives.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Rye

[KrazyBee 8]

Lol if he is Brits then he must be sas or some secret warrior shit that noone knows..

[cross888 10]

...What? By saying, 'Hi guys, never happens, trust me I know.'

Yeah. Silent kills never happen. Sneaking up on sentries never happen.

Forget WW1/2/Oman/Vietnam/Korea. That's out of the equation. Silent kills never happen.

Everything is direct action, shoot everybody. And don't quote when it does happen, it never happens.

When you make absolute statements that aren't true or backed up, don't preach them. Your experience doesn't counter-act others who have done it, even if you keep miming the said books or events aren't credible. Credible information has been provided, you've provided nothing.

There's been plenty of suggestions in this thread, and some modders putting it to work, I suggest you look that up - that would be more constructive. I agree, it shouldn't be exploited like bunny hops. I agree on counter-acting a lot of the negative thoughts, including one-hit wonders but that's easier said than done and that from a development point of view would - to me - be something worked on later in the project. The start of a project you'd just want to get the ability to do it in game, then begin to work around the mechanics.

Well, I guess he's Brit saying FIBUA. But hey... I hear CAG like their knives.

I know that TF42 (UKSF) did some sentry killing in afghan I KNOW :')

But as i pointed out the guys that were killed on sentry were asleep.

A lot of people here seem to think you kill people by cutting blood vessels, you don't you, kill them by destroying the brains connection to the spine. (then its almost silent) That is the closest thing to a "Stealth kill" you wil lever get. IT isn't easy and unless you have complete surprise its very hard.

if you've ever seen somebody have there throat cut you'd know that its a noisy messy affair there's nothing stealthy about it. Basic human biology.

For all you fellas who have no operational experience as a combat arms soldier just go on liveleak and watch some syrian videos i'm sure that will be a great insite.

HOWEVER, I would like to see it in the game a sentry killing aspect and a nasty gritty close quaters fighting IE bayonets.

PS this entire thread make me sound like a homicidal maniac......

Edited April 5, 2013 by Cross888

[rye1 21]

I know that TF42 (UKSF) did some sentry killing in afghan I KNOW :')

But as i pointed out the guys that were killed on sentry were asleep.

Have you got any more information on this? I mean I've heard of the Brits face-to-face fighting in cave systems with knives against AQ/TB, bayonet charging Taliban in the open but not sentry killing. That's interesting. The Omani Army Night Picket were asleep when the 'Adoo' slit their throats in Oman too in the Battle of Mirbat. Don't sleep on the job, eh.

If you've ever seen somebody have there throat cut you'd know that its a noisy messy affair there's nothing stealthy about it. Basic human biology... A lot of people here seem to think you kill people by cutting blood vessels, you don't you, kill them by destroying the brains connection to the spine. (then its almost silent) That is the closest thing to a "Stealth kill" you wil lever get. IT isn't easy and unless you have complete surprise its very hard.

Yeah that's been talked about. There's methods to prevent or lessen the sound profile such as tilting the head forward but there isn't much you can do. It's all circumstance at that point.

There's lots of methods and I can agree with that. You hear it all.

Blade through in-between the collarbone and scapula, push all the way through into the aortic arch/upper heart and rock it back and forth. Blade through the side of the neck into the main veins and literally punch the blade through, rip the airway out the front of the neck. But I agree what I have heard is that vascular and airway targets are weaker targets compared with neurological vital areas such as the back of the neck into the spinal cord.

I've even heard muscular targets during the turning point where 'stealth' isn't working, a failed event, tends to be the better compromise before it turns into a hand fight or as it turns into a hand fight. Take the hands, the eyes, work on the muscles in use. Now who's the homicidal maniac?

[mr_centipede 31]

You guys creep me out... sure hope FBI didn't see any of this

[bad benson 1733]

i don't get this discussion. sure some things are possible in reality. i don't see what that has to do with gameplay. let's be honest. there's no way this can be implemented realistically. the focus should be on a reasonable way to implement this into the GAME instead of trying to justify putting it in at all with authentic sources.

apart from the facts about real world application these are the points that are actually relevant in my opinion when it comes to discussing it as a game feature.

one shot kill or not? - what this does, looking at other games, is making "stealth kills" very frequent due to how easy it is. this could be balanced by adding a lot of fatigue to the take down. maybe even what has been mentioned: having to aim for a very small point that would allow insta death.

will there be a counter? - how will it be implemented? do you really want quick time events? does that feel realistic to you?

is it even possible to make something like that convincing without a whole hand to hand combat system? - i personally don't think so and i don't see the benefit of putting resources into something like that. i mean if we actually take into account what some actual military people said here the most common application is on a sleeping target. so do we need sleeping enemies now too just so we can have the satisfaction of realistically killing someone with one push of a button?

i think a good way for arma would be to have a combat knife but not having the typical FPS one shot kill. it would be cool to be able to have a knife with a realistic hit detection so you have to really engage into the attack and aim and not just knife people to death by running pass them like in any other game. this feature could either be very good and fun or just very bad. i mean look at the AI. i don't know about you, but all i will do is run through urban areas killing whole squads with my knife.

i still think this can be easily scripted for any mission if people really want it. if this is about presentation then sure yea...some animations would be nice. but the whole realism angle is kinda weird to me. especially in this particular topic.