Stealth Kills?

[dmarkwick 261]

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Yes I do, why do you get really angry because I have different views than you?

Oh. I had no idea.

Everyone listen to Primarch; he's the voice of the majority...

FPDR

I'm not angry about you having different views (hell I partially agree with the part about melee in ArmA), I'm angry because of your trolling (at which you seem to be succeeding).

Edited July 5, 2011 by Big Dawg KS

[Primarch 10]

Oh. I had no idea.

Everyone listen to Primarch; he's the voice of the majority...

FPDR

Please, keep your opinions to yourself if you can not stop de-railing the thread.

[ProfTournesol 956]

So, coding and animations? What else would there be? Getting them right is the problem. However if BIS wants to put their time into something niche like "stealth kill with a knife with special super moves", fine by me if the rest of the game is at the same level of quality.

The coding existed in OFP and was taken away since ArmA, animations aren't a big deal. A simple system would be enough for me. But everytime someone asks for something, guys pop up saying "there are better things to do". Great.

[Primarch 10]

The coding existed in OFP and was taken away since ArmA, animations aren't a big deal. A simple system would be enough for me. But everytime someone asks for something, guys pop up saying "there are better things to do". Great.

The animations are a big deal, as it is what you see in screen. You could always have something like "scroll down, select "kill silently" option" and the enemy drops but that would not be very nice now would it? Getting a feature right is the key. Quality over quantity.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Getting a feature right is the key. Quality over quantity.

I would agree with you if only your attitude wasn't complete BS.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Quality over quantity.

At least, something moddable better than nothing.

[Primarch 10]

At least, something moddable better than nothing.

You can always mod it in ArmA 2 if you could do the animations? You can not mod it into ArmA 3 anyway if you can't do the animations.

[ProfTournesol 956]

You can always mod it in ArmA 2 if you could do the animations? You can not mod it into ArmA 3 anyway if you can't do the animations.

Again, it isn't a matter of animations. They are "easy" to make, it's a matter of engine possibilities, of weapon simulation. Rather than heavy and ugly scripting.

[dmarkwick 261]

You can always mod it in ArmA 2 if you could do the animations? You can not mod it into ArmA 3 anyway if you can't do the animations.

That's true. My sniffer dog could "pacify" enemies but there was obviously no doggy attack animation, so the enemy just lies down. Not exactly exciting, but better than nothing :)

[cyop 10]

Rye,

Maybe I should have been more precise with my words.

As for this game, and regarding the modern Army, we will never have a knife for CQB, or for any stealth mission. While I am not a BIS lead developer, that would be my bet. As I stated, it would be OK (by me) to have a mission where the player could use a knife (bayonet), but I seriously doubt BIS would go to the trouble.

And where do you get your 'info'? It surely is not from personal experience. I mean, really...

(SNIPS, from CyOp, quoting Rye) Thing of the past, no and never. It has and will continue to happen; it has happened both in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And Tunnel rats; they literally went down there with just a flashlight, knife, and revolver (normally a .38 rather than a .45 because of the noise and muzzle flash of it). The knife was always a back-up for obvious reasons in such a close environment.

Gear we can't change but you would usually try it clean skin to minimise chance, if not then so be it; there has to be another factor fulfilling it before you tried e.g. a heavy and noisy vehicle next to the target. The person screaming wouldn't if a jugular was slashed, neck was broken in the process or any number of instantly debilitating procedures. But with a 'stab' as you put, thrusting it into somebody then of course there would be noise; so ask yourself why you would thrust in a non-compromised situation? You wouldn't.

For it to work in a compromised situation it must be a mixture of luck, in a very close space and done quickly. As I've mentioned before, if you jam at 5m, then what? If you transition and by that time the enemy is already on top of you? These may be real life considerations in all honesty but still a very true arguement;- it all comes down to what if's.

As for tunnel rats, I am sure there is nothing you could tell me that I did not know about or learn over 30 something years ago. - I, personally, do not know (of) a single person that went in a hole with a .38 revolver. '45, yes. '9mm, yes. So, you saying, "they", like it was (even, possibly) most of the tunnel rats, is completely false.

And, please, instead of just throwing statements out there you 'think' may have happened, cite some instances (from Afghanistan and Iraq), where soldiers are killing the enemy with a knife.

Regarding jamming in close quarters (you mentioned 5 meters), a soldier surely does not throw his rifle down and try to 'acquire' his bayonet (if he has one). I know I would not.

The thing that got me shaking my head the most was, when you mentioned about cutting the jugular so the target would not scream. The breaking the neck was a 'good one', too. And, please, also, tell us about the other, "number of instantly debilitating procedures", regarding a (stealth) kill. I really want to hear about those.

EDIT: Wow, damn, it has been more like (strike 30 above) 40. Unreal.

Edited July 5, 2011 by CyOp

[Primarch 10]

Rye,

Maybe I should have been more precise with my words.

As for this game, and regarding the modern Army, we will never have a knife for CQB, or for any stealth mission. While I am not a BIS lead developer, that would be my bet. As I stated, it would be OK (by me) to have a mission where the player could use a knife (bayonet), but I seriously doubt BIS would go to the trouble.

And where do you get your 'info'? It surely is not from personal experience. I mean, really...

As for tunnel rats, I am sure there is nothing you could tell me that I did not know about or learn over 30 something years ago. - I, personally, do not know (of) a single person that went in a hole with a .38 revolver. '45, yes. '9mm, yes. So, you saying, "they", like it was (even, possibly) most of the tunnel rats, is completely false.

And, please, instead of just throwing statements out there you 'think' may have happened, cite some instances (from Afghanistan and Iraq), where soldiers are killing the enemy with a knife.

Regarding jamming in close quarters (you mentioned 5 meters), a soldier surely does not throw his rifle down and try to 'acquire' his bayonet (if he has one). I know I would not.

The thing that got me shaking my head the most was, when you mentioned about cutting the jugular so the target would not scream. The breaking the neck was a 'good one', too. And, please, also, tell us about the other, "number of instantly debilitating procedures", regarding a (stealth) kill. I really want to hear about those.

Oh but he has played Call of Duty and Battlefield. You know that a modern soldier can punch his knife through a ceramic armor? And that a knife is much more useful in CQC than a fully loaded rifle or a pistol. That is the general consensus in this thread.

[cyop 10]

Well, anyway, I apologize. I should not have even brought up some things I did. This is a game thread. But through the years, these threads where someone starts bringing up 'real-life' just get to me. :( EDIT: Fortunately, it is very rare.

[Cdogwoof 11]

Can some one please explain to me how this is such a big deal lol

[BlackAlpha 10]

BlackAlpha:- You mention compromise, who would try to use a knife when compromised and has a working pistol or rifle? No one. A few factors must be in place to be successful without compromise, even with compromise to and from target you can still be successful, some factors come down to luck.

Gear we can't change but you would usually try it clean skin to minimise chance, if not then so be it; there has to be another factor fulfilling it before you tried e.g. a heavy and noisy vehicle next to the target. The person screaming wouldn't if a jugular was slashed, neck was broken in the process or any number of instantly debilitating procedures. But with a 'stab' as you put, thrusting it into somebody then of course there would be noise; so ask yourself why you would thrust in a non-compromised situation? You wouldn't.

Your whole basis goes on being compromised and if there were possibilities of being compromised from approach to kill to retreat then you'd find an alternative plan and go with a pistol or silenced rifle or avoid the person to begin with. No one says you have to use X and X in X situation but you just have to use your brain to realise it wouldn't work in some situations.

For it to work in a compromised situation it must be a mixture of luck, in a very close space and done quickly. As I've mentioned before, if you jam at 5m, then what? If you transition and by that time the enemy is already on top of you? These may be real life considerations in all honesty but still a very true arguement;- it all comes down to what if's.

It's the fact we haven't seen it in Arma:- both knives and such a close quarter environment of operating whereby these considerations must be met. I could see an improvement in Arma whereby it may meet these considerations.

My whole argument was about the luck that you are talking about. I argue that it's too much about luck and chance, it's very risky.

Maybe "stab" wasn't the right word. I simply meant 'attack', in any way possible. When you attack in melee, it's too risky, for the reasons I described in my huge post.

You say that there are certain moves that will almost instantly "neutralize" a person. But I believe that there is no sure fire way to instantly kill a person. If you do happen to kill someone in a split second, then you got pretty lucky. The quick and clean stealth kills from the movies, where one guy sneaks up on another guy and does some magic move to instantly kill him, such instances are not the norm in real life. In melee combat, many things can go wrong, as I've said in my huge post. So you cut his neck, but there's no guarantee that he will go down instantly. Same thing with breaking his neck. There's no guarantee you can do it quick enough before he reacts in some way. Like you said, "what if", "what if", "what if", there are many of them, too many, too risky.

I don't see why you would prefer melee combat when you've got a silenced weapon. Or when stealth is critical for mission success (when compromise is unacceptible). Or when it's not necessary to engage the enemies (when it's better to avoid them, low and slow). This whole argument is about STEALTH, remember?

I highly agree with your last statement. If ArmA would focus a lot more on CQB and an AI that can actually handle such environments, then I'd welcome melee weapons with open arms. But I'm still not saying that they would be used a lot. At least not in a military setting where everyone carries assault rifles.

And to anyone wondering what the point of all this argueing is. I think that if you implement knives in a realistic fashion, they will virtually never be used, so there's little reason to implement them. If you implement the knives in such a fashion that they can be used a lot, then it would not be realistic. People would be going about instant killing by using magic silent takedowns or by simply slashing forward COD style.

The only justification I see for implementing knives into ArmA3 is that it would form a good base for creating zombie missions. ;) So on second though, maybe BIS should implement knives and some basic melee AI elements, because then we'd most likely see more/better zombie missions... Wait, an even better idea, ArmA: Total War! Hell yeah! :p

[NoRailgunner 0]

"Stealth" = overused word in marketing and kids think that its ubercool to have and use it without any disadvantage or at least it should be nonsignificant. Something like a magic button/click to win the situation/mission with ease + very comfy.

Watch those films/games:

- where the hero is walking suddenly without making any noise on any ground

- where the bad guys look and concentrating in the other direction

- where the knife/bayonet is going through protection vests

- where the knife/"stealth attack combo" is used to intensify drama and coolness of the hero

:D

I'm for the totally unstealthy shovel/spade including two working features:

+ to dig

+ to cut/break

...and it would be nice if Spetsnaz could get the backflip hatchet attack - because it looks so cool!! :p

[rye1 21]

Oh but he has played Call of Duty and Battlefield. You know that a modern soldier can punch his knife through a ceramic armor? And that a knife is much more useful in CQC than a fully loaded rifle or a pistol. That is the general consensus in this thread.

Who mentioned this? No one.

---------- Post added at 06:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 AM ----------

As for tunnel rats, I am sure there is nothing you could tell me that I did not know about or learn over 30 something years ago. - I, personally, do not know (of) a single person that went in a hole with a .38 revolver. '45, yes. '9mm, yes. So, you saying, "they", like it was (even, possibly) most of the tunnel rats, is completely false.

You should check out House to House by David Bellavia. This guy also killed an insurgent with his knife.

You might also want to try Long Rifle by Joe LeBleu, he carried 5 knives on him at any one moment. He was a sniper but was taught heavily by his grandfather who was USSF about why knives are so important.

You might want to take a look at the book The Tunnels of Chu Chi. It describes the tunnels of the Iron Triangle in Vietnam in great detail, and the methods used to clear the tunnels. They did prefer .38's, they are great back-up pistol:- even some modern day close quarter battle operators and units use a .38 as back-up, back-up. Police units do not use knives as weapons but have them in their kit for certain roles, Military units will use them as a back-up to the secondary, pistol, if needed.

There are 1,000 books out there on the subject. Some over the top, full of unrealistic happenings and training methods - and some not.

---------- Post added at 06:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 AM ----------

My whole argument was about the luck that you are talking about. I argue that it's too much about luck and chance, it's very risky.

Maybe "stab" wasn't the right word. I simply meant 'attack', in any way possible. When you attack in melee, it's too risky, for the reasons I described in my huge post.

You say that there are certain moves that will almost instantly "neutralize" a person. But I believe that there is no sure fire way to instantly kill a person. If you do happen to kill someone in a split second, then you got pretty lucky. The quick and clean stealth kills from the movies, where one guy sneaks up on another guy and does some magic move to instantly kill him, such instances are not the norm in real life. In melee combat, many things can go wrong, as I've said in my huge post. So you cut his neck, but there's no guarantee that he will go down instantly. Same thing with breaking his neck. There's no guarantee you can do it quick enough before he reacts in some way. Like you said, "what if", "what if", "what if", there are many of them, too many, too risky.

I don't see why you would prefer melee combat when you've got a silenced weapon. Or when stealth is critical for mission success (when compromise is unacceptible). Or when it's not necessary to engage the enemies (when it's better to avoid them, low and slow). This whole argument is about STEALTH, remember?

I highly agree with your last statement. If ArmA would focus a lot more on CQB and an AI that can actually handle such environments, then I'd welcome melee weapons with open arms. But I'm still not saying that they would be used a lot. At least not in a military setting where everyone carries assault rifles.

And to anyone wondering what the point of all this argueing is. I think that if you implement knives in a realistic fashion, they will virtually never be used, so there's little reason to implement them. If you implement the knives in such a fashion that they can be used a lot, then it would not be realistic. People would be going about instant killing by using magic silent takedowns or by simply slashing forward COD style.

The only justification I see for implementing knives into ArmA3 is that it would form a good base for creating zombie missions. ;) So on second though, maybe BIS should implement knives and some basic melee AI elements, because then we'd most likely see more/better zombie missions... Wait, an even better idea, ArmA: Total War! Hell yeah! :p

The only justification I could see was if it was made with detail and worked with AI. It probably won't and this is just a discussion thread on a certain topic anyway. Everything's down to luck and chance, but when you train with it you feel more confident and slowly learn that it can be used, there are so many misconceptions because of stupid games and movies.

Yes, it's rare to use and yes there are many many times you won't when you could have and it might not work. It's a good back-up, back-up and should be no substitute unless in the X factor situation, e.g. jammed, twice, pistol and rifle. Need to reload. Cannot unholster.

You must understand you must be either 1) in the shit 2) desperate 3) in really close operations like boat boarding and house-to-house clearing or raiding. The whole basis on how to make it work, and how to implement stealth kill, I dunno, I'm not a developer.

[cyop 10]

Rye,

So, you have no personal experience? OK. No biggie.

And I think it is Cu Chi (at least from my memory). As far as I know, books about Cu Chi came out way after I knew about that operation. And, that is a major point. 'It' was an 'operation'. That was not just a squad (or two) coming across a hole, and then someone volunteering to go down, and being handed a pistol and a (hopefully with new batteries) flashlight. - From my understanding, because I was not at Cu Chi, but, after a long while, there was an active search for tunnel complexes. The operation came about because of continuous activity, such as abushes, and then weapons and ammo, even tins, etc., which were 'magically' disappearing from the bodies of fallen US soldiers. Of course, also, the area had been bombed and napalmed almost into oblivion. Someone in command finally got it through their head that there was way more to Cu Chi than what 'met the eye'.

I really do not want to read books about the subject. And for myself, I really do not want to get into this (that) any further. - I have said more than I wanted to (should have), anyway.

OT: I don't think anyone should hold their breath while waiting for knives or bayonets to be implemented in the Arma series.

EDIT: Tell you what, I will look into some of what you suggested. (I am not sure why.) Maybe tomorrow night. Or, the next night, or... :). Sooner or later. Seriously.

Edited July 6, 2011 by CyOp

[rye1 21]

Thanks for the reply. I don't know but you'd try to base kit around the operation and I wouldn't understand why you wouldn't take such a useful utility weapon; maybe they had bigger problems.

You should check out those books, really good reads, they are life stories not about knives, bayonets, breaking necks and so forth :D. David Bellavia went through the hell of Fallujah in some heavy fighting, to the point of using his hard armour plate against an insurgents head! Joe LeBleu was a US Sniper and scored the longest kill at the time in Iraq (1,100m) and fielded the M110 (top secret at the time) for the US Army and also reviewed it for some of his mates who were USSF.

[Slayer_SK 10]

i am totally looking for a melee solution. especially because of zombie and medieval stuff...

i believe it would add a lot of useful and funny game mechanics and possibilities. i mean we even have plastic handcuffs, earplugs and bodybags! hell, why no melee system then?

the only question for me is:

is it really possible to properly implement melee combat into the engine of arma 2? will it fit technically?

i am not a coder but i have thought about this topic a lot and also did my research...

from game design perspective i am sure its possible.

it would be interesting to hear what a coder has to say about that.

maybe one of the developers could give us a hint if such a project is possible. if its just simply hard work or a fight against wind mills because of the engine?

i would really appreciate any help in that question...

Edited July 7, 2011 by Slayer_SK

[Dennistp 11]

For a stealth kill, why not compound bow like the spanish elite troops :P could be really fun lol

[Slayer_SK 10]

i guess what most people also do wrong when imagining stealthy killing is that they have to approach their target at a risky way and kill it while being then in a bad position.

sorry but who acts like that is probably an unexperienced person in qestions of stealth.

stealth means taking the opportunity to cover something. either its your movement (sneaking, climbing, crawling) or your actions (sabotage, killing).

a warrior who knows and respects that will wait at you. behind a corner. once you go past him he grabs and kills you. i bet this is not a problem for a highly trained soldier or a guy with experience in that.

this warrior is also not going to let the body drop, neither is he attacking with lack of information, teammates, situational awareness or the proper skill to use that tactic.

means this tactic is used when it fits. we all know that it doesnt fit all time and everytime.

another case (non stealth):

i am the pointman in the breaching team and enter the building, hug left wall and move towards corner:

i keep closing in to the enemy (what i am supposed to do) and use all my weapons which are required:

too far for melee - sidearm: pistol

if he is too close that i can pull my pistol or i am already using my pistol and following happens:

jam, empty mag = malfunction ---> melee

there is no time in pulling a pistol in that case and also point it at somebody. i want tu HURT that person to disrupt it. pull and just immediately stab or attack.

a knife is not a onehitkiller same like a pistol or a rifle. it has to be an well aimed attack to kill instantly so this argument is also not working against the blade because we can say the same about silencers.

so when you are capable of training your aim with rifles, you also can with blades. and theres no thing like a iron sight, yeah. but at that distance you seriously dont need it...

if you would need a kind of reference you pointing at, you could use your knifetip. once you get used to the animations and movement to hit properly... just a question of training. same like firing weapons.

i guess many guys would shit their pants if they also would have to learn melee combat in a game to be a pwner. they cant unrealistically shoot everbody from every situation anymore because there is a nice counter for cqb: melee.

another poin:

in both sides are the same ifs. if, if if... you dont use it properly you lose. thats it. its just a difference of ammo and range thats all.

also while being hit by a blade several times a second you probably wont be able to use your rifle properly or pull your gun when a fully packed armoured warrior storms the room, pulls his knife and starts attacking you at a distance where firearms are becoming useless.

i also cant imagine that i would stand in front of a guy and stab him to wait till he shoots back... i will attack. jam and block, disarm him or jabkick to stun / throw back, jump on and stab, stab, slash, kick, stab, throw, etc... within seconds or miliseconds...

i wouldnt stand and wait till he points that gun at me. i would surpress him with melee. if its a buttstock, boot, knife, shovel, axe, stone, chair, sand, knee, fist, choke, whatever...

the capability to continuously attack the enemy with no reloading at point blank range where firearms become almost useless or better said useless or even LOST.

or have you tried to aim and fire in such a struggle?

another fact about the myth knife:

-its easy to use and cheap. its standart.

-everybody has at least one.

-solid old design never expires.

-all armies use it in combat, but not all soldiers!

-it takes a lot of skill to master but if mastered its seriously a terrifying weapon!

the next point i want to bring in is, that most of the people neither here have an idea of what melee combat means or firefighting.

its nice to make suggestions but to sell them as 100% truth is kind of silly.

to not forget:

melee combat also has MANY different aspects and weapons, parameters etc which have to be counted in.

it would be something complex and big if well done. i bet it would take almost same amount of work, with animations probably even more to be done well.

it means it would be probably a whole new aspect of fighting and also the engine.

i am right now preparing myself to start a project and working and finding a solution or system to make melee combat more enjoyable in games. to implement it into an engine and get some nice content around the gameplay...

still not sure about the scenario, but something like worlwar z (headshotonly slow zombie sim) or medieval warfare (also sim. siege, maybe even economy) is in my mind. especially a medieval game in warfaremode should be an awesome shit!

to be honest i would like to see more things fixed in arma and its engine. i still would strongly appreciate and love to see proper melee. it should be seriously considered of implementing such a feature to enlarge the capabilities of VBS.

if i would start making it in arma, i would try to bring it in like ace or acre. probably callin it "A.M.C.E". Advanced Melee Combat Environment. :D

compatible with other mods, especially ace. smooth and well done work. to make it short: implementing it right that it doesnt look like another construction side but like an awesome feature which works well.

my question is only, if VBS is useful for implementing this. especially the lack of physics can be somehow difficult at some point.

the new A 3 should be far better but i its not available and i dont like the alternatives UDK or Cryengine 3 that much like the awesome variety and scale of VBS.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Slayer_SK

[Baff1 0]

Personally I miss the melee side for two reasons.

1st Atmospherics.

You know you are in one hell of a battle when you had to melee someone in firefight.

2nd.

Realism.

Melee is used in combat. There are combats that I would like to depict involving bayonet charging or even stealth knife kills from behind. I don't believe this to be an unrealistic mechanic.

If you were worried about realism, just make the animation last longer than COD or something.

I'm not really looking for a swashbuckling game mechanic however. dodge hack, sidestep, duck parry thrust hack...just a basic animation will do me. Assasinate from behind or straight thrust with bayonet.

For simplicities sake, I might assign a bayonet thrust to the fire button so that when I cleft click but my gun is is on empty, it bayonet thrusts.

For stealth kill it could share a key with vault perhaps or ven just left click if the knife is pre-equiped.

As an aisde there was a comment in this thread about knifes punching through body armour. Modern bayonets are designed to do this. It was a prerequisite I believe for the USMC's latest combat knife to be able to.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Baff1

[David Schofield 10]

I'd be ok with stealth if it took about a minute to preform a kill with a knife. That seems realistic to me. (minute long animation and all you can do is watch, or slowly drag them as they choke. Gives enemies a chance to spot you.)

[Slayer_SK 10]

minute is too long. by FAR.

fight a guy one minute long... its not that easy.

if the kill is not immediately its not a good kill anymore. you messed somethig up...

you would also have no chance to stay one minute at the same spot.

i would estimate 0,5-5 seconds max for such a "from behind" kill. nothing more because its gonna be a barfight with knifes and riflebutts...