Suppression Effects

[-Coulum- 35]

After looking through other posts and some testing I have figured out that there are definitely suppression effects on both the ai and player. These effects are:

player and ai weapon shakes for about 5 seconds depending on the severity of the suppression. The weapon shake makes it difficult to reliably hit anything over 100 metres away.

Effects will only occur if the shot is within around 2 metres of player/ai.

Effects will only occur if the shot actually impacted with something. Shots that pass near the player have no effect.

Occasionally the player's screen will blur.

Ai rate of fire will decrease.

I think that these effects are not harsh enough and don't accurately depict suppression. While testing I was actually finding it harder to suppress an enemy than to kill him. This is far from realistic. This is how I think suppression should work.

Any shot that lands or passes within 7 metres of the player should cause:

weapon to shake for 4 seconds. It should be difficult to reliably hit anything over 20 metres away

Players screen will blur or/and darken for a second

If multiple shots pass by the effects will be cumulative. Ie. 3 shots will cause the gun to shake for 12 seconds, 6 shots will cause shake for 24 seconds.

any shot that lands or passes within 7 metres of the ai should cause:

weapon to shake for 4 seconds. It should be difficult for them to hit anything over 20 metres.

Slower rate of fire. Maybe half as slow as normal.

If suppression is severe enough (10 shots in 15 seconds maybe) the ai will be unable to move for awhile (maybe 10-15 seconds)

Ai will drop down if suppression is severe enough (3 shots in 5 seconds)

If a squad as a whole takes too much suppression it will not be able to move for a certain period of time.

I think that this would be more realistic and challenging.

What do you guys think of the current suppression effects and what I have suggested?

[maturin 12]

Suppression also makes your screen slightly brighter, which is just cool.

Rounds going closeby overhead would realistically be as scary as rounds hitting close by. And it would make firefights play out more like real life.

It would also be bloody infuriating. Imagine running across an open space, diving into cover, and still having to be all panicked despite being in safety. And enough weapon sway to make you inaccurate beyond 20m is just excessive and would look ridiculous. Your hands would be having a seizure.

Also, 7 meters is LONG way! You can barely hear a round pass by at that range, and it could be, functionally, on the other side of the world. Across a whole bunch of cover or an area you can't get to.

The system is well-tuned now in that it makes it hard to hit that one guy who has a bead on you. Any more and it becomes a debilitating default state in combat (not saying that would be unrealistic), but you would no longer be able to tell why you were scared at that particular moment. You're suggestion would be nice for simulating a raw recruit who is petrified because people are shooting at people nearby. The player should only worry about his own life.

To counter your suggestion, I think that a sonic snap that is closer than a meter away should cause not sustained weapon sway and breathlessness, but a twitch or a cringe. Your hands would simply jump. This would also count as suppression for the AI.

The most important thing is to have suppression affect AI MOVEMENT. There is a ticket for this on devheaven.

Edited April 25, 2011 by maturin

[-Coulum- 35]

Also, 7 meters is LONG way! You can barely hear a round pass by at that range, and it could be, functionally, on the other side of the world. Across a whole bunch of cover or an area you can't get to.

Yeah I guess 7 metres would be a bit excessive. maybe 3.5 would be better. but I think that the current radius of 1 or 2 metres isn't nearly enough. Like I said before. it is easier to hit somebody than it is to suppress them because of the the small suppression radius. and at 7 metres you may not be able to even hear the sonic crack but you would know that people are shooting at you and that is scary enough.

Imagine running across an open space, diving into cover, and still having to be all panicked despite being in safety.

I don't think that this would be all that bad as it would keep players heads down more as would happen in real life. but maybe you it could be made that if you drop your stance suppression will be decreased so people won't be as suppressed in situations like the one above.

To counter your suggestion, I think that a sonic snap that is closer than a meter away should cause not sustained weapon sway and breathlessness, but a twitch or a cringe. Your hands would simply jump. This would also count as suppression for the AI.

A sonic crack going off would definitely cause you to cringe and I think that is a good idea but I still don't think you would be able to hold your weapon perfectly straight for a while as well. I also think that a simple cringe wouldn't make players want to keep their heads down.

All in all, after a bit more thought I think that the current effects of suppression are fine. But I still think it is to hard to get them to occur. So I think that

Shots landing or passing by within 3.5 metres of the player cause the current suppressive effects.

on top of the current effects you should "cringe"

ai should not be able to move if they take enough fire

ai fire at half their normal rof

basically I think that suppression isn't seen enough and rarely plays a factor in a fire fight especially when against ai. I think the above should make it easy enough to use that it can actually be applied as a tactic ingame.

[mjolnir66 48]

Also, 7 meters is LONG way! You can barely hear a round pass by at that range, and it could be, functionally, on the other side of the world. Across a whole bunch of cover or an area you can't get to.

Just as an aside, you can hear supersonic rounds from a lot further than 7m away, to the point that a lot of people mistake the sound of the round travelling past as the gunshot.

But ontopic, we really need more effects on the ai, so its possible to actually suppress them. Something like a massive reduction in rate of fire and a lot more time spent in cover when suppressed, along with the weapon shake. Something to actually make movement when the enemy is around viable.

Maybe something like Project Reality where the screen goes black for the players as well.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Maybe something like Project Reality where the screen goes black for the players as well.

Yeah, lets not do that.

[Beagle 684]

Maybe something like Project Reality where the screen goes black for the players as well.

Where exactly is "reality" in that project. Seems more like a alternate reality. The only times my "screen went black" when I was in the military was during cadence drill. Real stress has the opposite effect...you hear better, vigillance goes up to 150% and you see even sharper...the rest is gamey hollywood effects. Edited April 28, 2011 by Beagle

[ACPL Jon 68]

Occasionally the player's screen will blur.

what? Never happened to me. It's just a bit brighter if the shot was really close + the "fatigue"\stress effect (yes, shaky hands too)

For all of You PR-lovers, head over to aholic and type "Wizz" in the search bar. It's the less-drastic, less-bullshit version of that PR thing telling You "hey, you're under fire". Kinda similiar to VBS 2 stuff.

Have fun and +1 for no PR bs!

[liquidpinky 11]

Where exactly is "reality" in that project. Seems more like a alternate reality. The only times my "screen went black" when I was in the military was during cadence drill. Real stress has the opposite effect...you hear better, vigillance goes up to 150% and you see even sharper...the rest is gamey hollywood effects.

I would agree, we are supposed to be playing as well trained soldiers in this and instead they shake like a 12 year old kid under stress. Suppression only really works against a trained soldier as you know it would be stupid to stick your head up and get it blown off for your stupidity.

Been in a few life threatening situations, not in a military capacity mind, and I tend to find myself being more cold and calculating during then. Plenty of time to shake, swear and laugh about it afterwards. Panicking and shaking only get you dead.

Really annoys the shit out of me in this game.

If you are lying there sniping and the enemy rounds start coming in, you don't need to simulate the stress with shakes as you are aware of the fact you will be dead shortly if you don't sort the situation out.

The AI don't really need it either if you make them intelligent enough to keep their heads down and not die needlessly.

[james mckenzie-smith 1]

Yeah I guess 7 metres would be a bit excessive. maybe 3.5 would be better. but I think that the current radius of 1 or 2 metres isn't nearly enough.

Possibly not, but one metre actually seems consistent with studies done on the matter both during the Second World War, and more recently.

http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/Real_Role_of_Small_Arms_RDS_Summer_09.pdf

Interesting thread, though, and food for thought for us all.

[trips 10]

Ai will drop down if suppression is severe enough (3 shots in 5 seconds)

For me this is the biggest gap. You can sap the AI's effectiveness but no amount of bullets will make them take that into account and stay in hard cover. They always just get up and run, usually getting shot in the process.

I think if this was 'fixed' it would really change the game for the better in terms of realistic player tactics. Flanking would be a necessity, not just an occasional bonus.

[fimpen 1]

I would agree, we are supposed to be playing as well trained soldiers in this and instead they shake like a 12 year old kid under stress. Suppression only really works against a trained soldier as you know it would be stupid to stick your head up and get it blown off for your stupidity.

The shaking hands usually comes from the adrenaline being pumped out into your system, as opposed to the stress of being fired upon.

I like the suppression system in ArmA 2, it isn't a show stopper and it gets the job done well. The only thing that needs to be changed (i.e. worked on) is suppression vs. AI.

[spangg 0]

If you are lying there sniping and the enemy rounds start coming in, you don't need to simulate the stress with shakes as you are aware of the fact you will be dead shortly if you don't sort the situation out.

I think it isn't the same stress in front of the monitor than in RL. I think the fact that you are forced to get back behind cover by diminishing your ability to aim is a good thing. Don't forget that to simulate RL in a game is not necessary works out best the most direct way.

[dreday 1]

I think it isn't the same stress in front of the monitor than in RL. I think the fact that you are forced to get back behind cover by diminishing your ability to aim is a good thing. Don't forget that to simulate RL in a game is not necessary works out best the most direct way.

Exactly! I think that most ArmA players would be able to lay and aim perfectly still if they have only 25% of dying from the return fire. I doubt that there are too many people that would be willing (or able) to do the same in the real life...

Peace,

DreDay

[HyperU2 11]

You shake after the action not during, mostly from adrenaline overload. IRL it's easier to steady your weapon against your surroundings than in ARMA, it's not that realistically implemented. I'm sure the AI doesn't deal with it.

[dreday 1]

You shake after the action not during, mostly from adrenaline overload. IRL it's easier to steady your weapon against your surroundings than in ARMA, it's not that realistically implemented. I'm sure the AI doesn't deal with it.

Luckily I have no first hand experience with this, but I would think that plenty of soldiers "shake" before, during, and after the action. It's not just the adrenaline that's at play; it's also the plethora of other neurotransmitters.

Peace,

DreDay

[Militant1006 11]

the suppression thing would be cool, but still, it would have to be just a hard for the AI as the player, otherwise no point doing it.

A good idea would be to limit the amount of time you can hold your breath for when you are suppressed or even tired from running, but then holding your breath doesn't bring any significant accuracy advantages compared to not holding breath, and it is done quite strangely anyway, it doesn't depend on what you were doing, it has a set time regardless, which is usually incredibly long, where it steadies your weapon, and when you have just run 1km, you can still "hold your breath" but it can't bring accuracy to a full value, which is stupid, and unrealistic.

[Inkompetent 0]

I'm sure the AI doesn't deal with it.

Actually the AI does have to deal with it. AI can be effectively suppressed by hitting within (I think) 0.5m of them. However note the "hitting". Bullets passing them within the distance doesn't affect them. Only actual bullet impacts.

Thus sometimes if you meet AI and are without immediate cover it can be better to shoot standing, putting 5-10 shots at them without the need to hit, just to mess up their aim enough to allow you to get into cover.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Inkompetent

[metalcraze 290]

You shake after the action not during, mostly from adrenaline overload. IRL it's easier to steady your weapon against your surroundings than in ARMA, it's not that realistically implemented. I'm sure the AI doesn't deal with it.

AI deals with everything

Suppression also slows it down when it's running and forces it to go prone. It looks clunky though as there's a second or two long lag before AI changes stance, instead walking or standing in one place when suppressed (remember when AI in your squad reports "under fire" and then goes prone or kneels as the bullet passes it by? That's that)

Suppression saved my virtual life against AI many many times. When I understand that I can't avoid a direct firefight with AI and have no time to carefully aim I try to put as many bullets his way, making AI ineffective, as possible - before I get suppressed myself - it makes AI busy enough for me to make a killing shot

[maturin 12]

It would be a good idea for nearby sonic cracks to make your aim jump slightly, messing up a careful shot without giving you constant, lasting handshake.

[maddogx 13]

It would be a good idea for nearby sonic cracks to make your aim jump slightly, messing up a careful shot without giving you constant, lasting handshake.

Interesting idea. I like it. :)

[wiggum2 31]

Actually the AI does have to deal with it. AI can be effectively suppressed by hitting within (I think) 0.5m of them. However note the "hitting". Bullets passing them within the distance doesn't affect them. Only actual bullet impacts.

Thats interesting !

So in order to "suppress" the AI you need to have a bullet hit the ground around them in a ~0,5m radius ?

And thats what some call "suppression" ?

Think about it, most players run for cover after hearing sonic cracks. Theen they stay in cover and try to figure out where the shots were coming from.

So while the AI can easily suppress the player with a few shots into his direction, the player is forced to hit the ground close to the AI...:rolleyes:

Thats something that needs to change in ArmA3 !

The AI should be able to "hear" the bullets the same way as the player does and react to that.

...and i always wondered why the AI dont cares if you fire at them from some distance and miss although you would expect them to hit the ground and/or run for cover.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Wiggum

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Bullet impact is easy to solve and cause reactions by.

How would you do bullet flybys, using algorithms? Keep network traffic in mind.

I want this too, and I've tried coming up with solutions, but it's very hard. Central idea revolves around a cylinder of around 25m diameter (caliber/energy dependent?) that is created on shot. Client finds all targets within this cylinder (trajectory ignored to keep it simple), and sends this information to the server. Wait for bullet impact or time > lifetime. Perform suppression effects on units that were inside this cylinder, effect attenuates with distance from centerline (again, trajectory ignored), but less so if bullet impacted nearby.

And yet, I feel that if everyone transmits this data, it would overload the net traffic.

[Inkompetent 0]

Yeah, as Gustaffa says this does most certainly have to with server performance. They *could* make checks to see which AI the bullet passes close to, but it'd require a lot of CPU time and pretty high priority to not 'miss' detections. And when there are dozens and hundreds of bullets in the air at the same time it'd get even more out of hand.

Actual bullet impacts makes it A LOT less computing-heavy.

Ideally they manage to somehow make a solution that better simulates the AI recognizing being shot at, but for now we'll just have to adapt to how it is.

[wiggum2 31]

Even if its not possible to get a suppression effect working, at least the AI should take notice of the shot.

You can do similar stuff with the fired eventhandler (if player fires inside trigger area, set behaviour to "COMBAT").

[maturin 12]

Bullet impact is easy to solve and cause reactions by.

How would you do bullet flybys, using algorithms? Keep network traffic in mind.

I want this too, and I've tried coming up with solutions, but it's very hard. Central idea revolves around a cylinder of around 25m diameter (caliber/energy dependent?) that is created on shot. Client finds all targets within this cylinder (trajectory ignored to keep it simple), and sends this information to the server. Wait for bullet impact or time > lifetime. Perform suppression effects on units that were inside this cylinder, effect attenuates with distance from centerline (again, trajectory ignored), but less so if bullet impacted nearby.

And yet, I feel that if everyone transmits this data, it would overload the net traffic.

But CG, the AI hears sonic cracks when I shoot at them. If I fire a weapon, they won't hear it from 300m. If I send the round past their ear, they will acquire me as a target.

Is this a Zeus feature or something? Because it seems like there must be some way BIS could figure it out.