A few real life combat questions

[cartier90 0]

When firing away at enemies I am quite mindful of having an empty or near empty mag and reload regularly - of course in real life a mag with 6 rounds is not particularly useful in the midst of a firefight and reloading too often could mean you have one full mag and 4 or 5 others with a varying load each.

Question 1 - in real life combat soldiers are supposed to count their rounds fired so as too not run out in a critical situation - is this done often or is there a natural 'feel' for when it's time to slap a fresh one in.

Question 2 ) - With the combat loads in OA being around 6 mags ...would this keep an average soldier going for a full days patrol or is it not particularly hard to load one of the

troop up with spare ammo as and when needed ?

Question 3 ) - In a Takistan like environ - ie Afghanistan, how long would a patrol go out for on a 'average day' assuming that such 'patrol' missions fill most days or are specific targets usually tasked ?

Thank you for any replies ...

Edited April 3, 2011 by cartier90

[meade95 0]

#1 - The answer is both

#2 - You always find / make room for more ammo

#3 - Conventional units will do long humps - Multi-day show of force humps / patrols in certain areas of Astan - SOF units are much more often specific target tasked.

[Sirex1 10]

1. First you keep your empty/near empty mags in a separate bag, usually dump them in your knee pocket. If you have some time you can yourself start to move rounds from near empty mags to one mag. Also after combat/firefights the squad leader usually does a ammo and wounded check and report in to higher chief so that the commanders are aware of your ammo situation.

2. 6 mag is somewhat low, it is not hard to stuff in 8 mags. Or as a soldier you can carry the paper ammo boxes and later on fill up your mags. I think with just 6 mags you need to be mindfull of your ammo useage.

3. Don't know.

[PuFu 4600]

1. you need to sort of count your rounds. You can also get a feel about the status of a mag by its weight.

2. The more the merrier. 6mags is low. the average soldier carries around 10-12 mags, even more at times (a soldier life depends on his weapons, food and water supplies). The heavy mags (support gunner's) are distributed amongst members of a squad if there is no designated guy for it, to keep the weight equal. Either way, the real issues is their weight.

3. It is pretty flexible. They range from 12-16h (day time) to a full week. Bear in mind that even when on short distances patrols, expected to last no more than 24h, the supplies need to last around 3 times more, in the case of unexpected.

Longer patrols are usually scheduled long time before, with more precise tasks involved, and there are support vehicles carrying backpacks and the bulk of supplies, rather than soldiers themselves.

[belator 10]

As far as it concerns german soldiers, you don't have to count. The G36 in all versions got a see through magazine. It was designed especially for this reasons.

Like sirex1 said, you carry your half empty mag's in a special bag. If you got time you refill your half empty mag's or you put them together.

No one got only 6 mag's. It's to low. It depends how much a soldir carrys on his position in the team and if you are by foot or in a vehicle patrole. The "STAN" called amount is not less than 10 mag's. I've got 12 on me, six double holder.

During a longer fire fight, you get rearmed. And if you realy have bad luck or it's a to hot zone, you are running out of ammo and have to fallback.

It depends on the unit. And I think on the nationality too. There is no standard.

[msy 22]

Let's wait for BIS releasing weight system for at least player himself.

[Beagle 684]

As far as it concerns german soldiers, you don't have to count. The G36 in all versions got a see through magazine. It was designed especially for this reasons.

Like sirex1 said, you carry your half empty mag's in a special bag. If you got time you refill your half empty mag's or you put them together.

No one got only 6 mag's. It's to low. It depends how much a soldir carrys on his position in the team and if you are by foot or in a vehicle patrole. The "STAN" called amount is not less than 10 mag's. I've got 12 on me, six double holder.

During a longer fire fight, you get rearmed. And if you realy have bad luck or it's a to hot zone, you are running out of ammo and have to fallback.

It depends on the unit. And I think on the nationality too. There is no standard.

90's STAN loadout for G3 was 5 mags, 100 rounds. So its not all the same at any time anywhere.

[KingN 251]

A nice trick tought in the army was to load up a tracer round as the second last round in your mags. In the midst of battle the tracer will tell you when to change the mag without needing to re-cock the rifle. Of course in a very bright day light it's fairly hard to see a tracer though.

[Guest]

When are we going to get guns with ammo readouts like in Halo?

:D

[Sniperwolf572 758]

When are we going to get guns with ammo readouts like in Halo?

:D

Very soon?

xHlE7mOQOrU

[Guest]

That's pretty cool! It's still seems very early in it's life, but maybe in 10 or so years we will see guns with a properley integrated system for combat use?

[Inkompetent 0]

That's pretty cool! It's still seems very early in it's life, but maybe in 10 or so years we will see guns with a properley integrated system for combat use?

Could probably be done fairly easily if someone really wanted to, by for example only counting fast enough movements of the bolt when it recoils back. You can do that with quite tiny electronics, but I'm not sure how well it'd be possible to put in a weapon not designed for it from the ground up.

[Beagle 684]

Could probably be done fairly easily if someone really wanted to, by for example only counting fast enough movements of the bolt when it recoils back. You can do that with quite tiny electronics, but I'm not sure how well it'd be possible to put in a weapon not designed for it from the ground up.

I don't see this s somthign practicable for military ude...I rather see more transparant magazines used...a much cheaper, easier and more reliable way to check your ammo state.

[maturin 12]

90's STAN loadout for G3 was 5 mags, 100 rounds. So its not all the same at any time anywhere.

The G3 is 7.62x51mm, isn't it? So it weighs a ton. They can and do carry around half again as much 5.56.

[helling3r 10]

The Bundeswehr does not issue the G3 anymore for some years now (in fact, the G36 was introduced 1997). The G36 has standard 5.56x45 NATO ammunition.

[-GLT-Sarge 10]

Thats not true.

The Bundeswehr still uses the G3 on a regular basis because we are lacking of a DMR.

A modified Version of the G3 ZF, the G3 DMR has been delivered to ISAF in January this year (around 142 rifles if I remember right).

Brand new replacement H&K DMR762 rifles are going to be delivered to Infantry units at the end of the year in September to give the squads more punch over a distance against the insurgents.

The Infantry snipers also kept using the G3 ZF over the years because its a reliable and accurate weapon and not as big / heavy as a G22 which fires only slightly bigger rounds (same caliber).....the G82 is an AMR, makes no sense in some scenarios.

So having a 7.62 mm rifle in a squad in Afghanistan makes alot of sense, because you can't have sniper coverage all the time.

Weapons like the GMW40 need to be mounted on a FLW200 on a Dingo 2, AGF Serval (in case of the KSK special forces), ENOK, Mungo, Fennek, TPz Fuchs A7 / A8 or on the brand new GTK Boxer of the Jäger-infantry.

thats the only weapon (except for an MG3, also vehicle mounted) which can lay a serious shitstorm onto the insurgent forces over a distance.....and because vehicles can't go everywhere, a 7,62 DMR comes in handy everytime.

To the questions:

1. Fallschirmjäger (Airborne) infantry and KSK Special Forces (and I'm sure other military forces do that as well) put 5-6 tracer rounds in a row as "last shots" in their magazines to let them know they're running out of ammo soon.....counting isn't that what you want to do, disctracts way to much and is inaccurate.

A good help are the see-through mags of the G36 but you can't look at them all the time when the enemy only is some meters away and is shooting at you

2. it depends......Afghan insurgents keep shooting with small arm fire and RPGs until they either die or run out of ammo......so you're better of with plenty of ammo yourself. 6 magazines-->not enough.

If a patrol gets into a firefight you need plenty of bullets, not time to run to a vehicle and look through the boxes.

3. also this depends....supply transports need to get done as quickly as possible.....then there are regular patrols with Road Clearance Package and EOD support to spot and disarm / disable roadside bombs / IEDS......they for example take a while.

Infantry units like Fallschirmjäger (Airborne) stay out of the camp for weeks sometimes, during that time they either live in the field in and around their vehicles, in old warehouses and policestations under worst conditions....they literally saw holes in chairs, put a toilet seat on it and a bag under it and use that as a toilet....the bags get disposed in a hole and lit up with diesel.

so average patrols..... 1-3 days.

oh and just to give you guys an idea whats going on down there, here are the numbers of incidents since the time between 28.03.2011 and 03.04.2011:

ISAF reported nationwide 465 security incidents.

several firefights and combat situations, IED attacks, one suicide bombing in the province of Kabul as well as incidents of indirect fire (mortars and rockets)

all of that in just 5 days

accurate numbers and information about casualties are classified

Edited April 13, 2011 by [GLT]Sarge

[cartier90 0]

Thanks for your answers Sarge et al. What I suppose cannot be shown in-game is the massive fatigue that soldiers must feel after being out for days on end. It may not be trench warfare intensity but I would imagine nerves would be quite frayed after a close call or two.

[-GLT-Sarge 10]

I haven't been in such situations either, but I've seen pictures and videos besides the storys I've been told...its very disturbing.

And some situations can result in trench warfare, a very good friend of mine who was with the Fallschirmjäger infantry (now he is, lets say, "better equiped and trained) told me about one combat situation he and his squad ran into.

They were sitting ducks after they've been ambushed by insurgent opposing forces and could relocate under smoke to a trench nearby for cover, there they kept shooting at the insurgents for hours, the insurgents were hiding behind some bushes and hedges and obviously were shooting too.

None of them could get out of cover to flank them, insurgents didn't move either, so my friend called in CAS on which a F-18 Hornet of the USAF responded.

But because the German Colonel Klein ordered the bombing of the two fuel trucks just a few weeks before, which resulted in heavy civilian casualties, the Hornet pilot decided just to make a SOF (show of force) strafing run dropping chaffs and flares instead of putting a bomb on the OF because he was afraid he could cause civil victims and refused to make a live bombing run.

So my guess is that the insurgents had a good laugh and kept on shooting.

For my friend's luck the German Bundeswehr had a self propelled howitzer PzH2000 in Kabul (meanwhile there are 6 in Afghanistan) so he called in artillery support.

So since nobody of his squad was killed (some were injured though) they got off lightly.

In the reports I get every two weeks via intranet I see the numbers of casualties of every nation involved in ISAF, most of them are American and British soldiers.

Even though I'm German and of course always am appalled when German soldiers fall, I show honest respect for all other Soldiers who didn't make it out of that shithole...sometimes I think we should just leave....corrupt ANA soldiers and policemen don't make it better , recently three Panzergrenadiere (armored infantry soldiers) were shot dead and six others were injured in OP North by one (!!) ANA soldier who was supposed to guard them. Two US soldiers were shot dead by an afghan policeman at a checkpoint.

Edited April 14, 2011 by [GLT]Sarge

[Sirex1 10]

The G3 is 7.62x51mm, isn't it? So it weighs a ton. They can and do carry around half again as much 5.56.

That is becouse with nato 7.62 (note nato 7.62m!=sovjet 7.62) you only need half as many rounds :p.

[BasileyOne 10]

That is becouse with nato 7.62 (note nato 7.62m!=sovjet 7.62) you only need half as many rounds :p.

thats strongly depends sub-type of ammo, ie, EXACT round deisgnation, for example, both M995 and 7Ð22/7Ð23/7Ð24 had altered wightcentering[w/o significand degradation of wound ballistics its improve bullet stability considerably] and augmented steel/tungsteen alloy -made core, which improve AP ratio FAR behind 7.62 conventional ammo.

p.s.

sovjet 7.62 had 7.62x51 too. which you can see/use used in SVD, for example.

and thats. and both sovjet 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 had rounds with [dramatically]improved AP ratio.

Edited April 17, 2011 by BasileyOne

[LeftSkidLow 1]

Seems like it would be super easy to just build a counting mechanism into the magazines that detects the height of the spring in the mag. Then make a simple plug into the top of the magazine that reads input from the mag when its loaded in. You could have like 3 dim LED's only visible to the shooter located near the front sight to indicate the ammo situation. Ie. green=full, orange=15, yellow = 10, red = 5, flashing red = 1 (reload). That way you never take your eyes off what you are shooting at, you could see the colors through your peripheral. Also having the data read from the mag would immediately tell you if you put a half empty mag in. I think it could all be done with very small/cheap electronics that hardly use any power. Someone has to have done this already.

Wouldn't work with NVG's though, I guess you could have IR LED's start to blink when you're low.

Edited April 15, 2011 by LeftSkidLow

[maturin 12]

That is becouse with nato 7.62 (note nato 7.62m!=sovjet 7.62) you only need half as many rounds :p.

Since (far) under 1% of rounds area actually going to hit someone, that couldn't be farther from the truth.

[Sirex1 10]

Unbelievable, nobody here has humor. It was a joke.

[maturin 12]

I know it wasn't a joke, it wasn't... funny.

[Sirex1 10]

I know it wasn't a joke, it wasn't... funny.

Well ofcourse you won't find it funny if you have no humor.