Call for a new forum rule

[nes4day 2]

After reading a fair few WIP & Release threads, I think that the culture on this forum is deteriorating. I think that discussion about release rights and copyright issues should be done with PMs, and not a public debate war.

So I'm calling for a new forum rule banning the discussion of copyright issues in a thread, but instead, using PMs and hopefully, proper manners and an open mind.

So I hope that the moderators will take this into consideration.

Also I would apologize if this is not the right section for this post:)

[max power 21]

While I agree that there's incivility on the forum sometimes, I'm not sure that putting a stop to discussion is really the way to go. Many instances of IP theft have been found and stopped- including someone who was stealing from VBS2 just last week! I think it is a good thing that people get to voice their opinions openly on such matters. I think it helps to reveal wrong doing faster and means more justice for content-makers.

Regarding the culture of the forum, it's there whether it is expressed in public posts or not. I mean this is a discussion forum, why would we want to stop discussion on important things like how people feel about lockable pbos, etc?

On the forum there's already rules regarding not discussing rule infractions (just report them), and apparently content makers 'own' their own threads and can request moderator intervention to clean up / guide discussion.

edit:

I think I saw the thread that may have inspired this and I see your point... but I still think it's important to have open discussions even if the topic inspires a lot of passion and strong statements.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Max Power

[vilas 477]

i also think that discussion should be open to public, why ?

because if you think you can manage anything with PM , you are wrong

some people say other thing on public and other on PM

example of few guys:

- on PM asks for permission on best thing you have , you refuse

- next hour on every forum , rating etc. your addons are bashed

players see "ooo addon rating is 1 point ? must be low quality" while in fact some kids "in revenge" for not giving permission did this

do you think you can manage ANYTHING with such kind of person ?

or another example:

guy writes once for permission , answer is NO

guy writes second time, answer is no

guy writes.... 6-th time

and releases saying he had permission :]

how about that ? or about guy who says "any member of team works becomes property of all in team" (so if you joined mod A, or someone joined your mod, he thinks he owns your IP and can give it further, really , i knew such guy, i know guy who told that "waiting 2 weeks is enough, than we can release it " )

if someone acts on public board, it means he has reasons, cause not all can be delt with PMs

if honor would be equal for everyone - you would not have written agreements on paper, word would be enough like in (ancient?) Japan, when some preferred to commit suicide than have dust on honor

PM works in 90% of normal people, but NEVER with rule-breakers

if you call for "new rule" than i would ask for another "new rule" - if someone breaks rules other places, should get resonsibility here too (imagine someone releasing your addon's content on other forum, he is here "innocent", but on other forum he say "crap" about you and releases "his" addon containing your work )

Edited February 10, 2011 by vilas

[mosh 0]

I agree with you vilas, you're an addon maker so you have a much better idea how things work than me.

What bothers me though is seeing people open new threads to share a fix (I do really think they have honest and good intentions most of the time). Why not post that fix in the original thread? Give the original author a chance to see it, keep it in the same place, and if the original author has been gone a long time, rejuvenate something they started...

Just thinking out loud... I hate seeing all the animosity lately and feel we are losing some aspiring new modders, who may not know the rules or etiquette 100%, and are just trying to get a feel for how things work around here.

But anyways, thanks for all you guys do... you're all very talented.

[NoRailgunner 0]

I think that discussion about release rights and copyright issues should be done with PMs, and not a public debate war.

Whats the difference and whats the gain of going into a "pm debate war"? The community doesn't suffer from such open discussions and some things might become clearer and less disingenuous.

So I'm calling for a new forum rule banning the discussion of copyright issues in a thread, but instead, using PMs and hopefully, proper manners and an open mind.

I would rather see people get at least 3-4 infraction warning levels for jumping on conclusion or derailing the thread even more with their bashing/witch-hunt. Keep it clean and correct - a fix is a fix and in this particular case it wasn't meant to steal the work and sell it for millions of bucks. If all community made addons/mods were released in a "final" shape (or close to it) those people wouldn't try to change/improve them.

"Not getting in contact with..." is more a communication problem between people = author/creator and people who take a challenge to fix/tune/improve it. Both sides are involved - somehow. ;)

What if the creator is short (or out) on spare time/motivation but said that anyone can fix bugs and issues with his addon/mission etc? Maybe he don't like to see his hard work going down into the hidden undergroundish "BETA Vault" ?

[nes4day 2]

Good points all around, well, it was just food for thought really, now I see that my point was seriously flawed. :)

[soul_assassin 1750]

how about this for a rule:

- anyone who releases a unauthorized (from the original author, not moderator) addon - banned

- anyone who voices support for stealing/rereleasing without permission - banned

- anyone who suggests it is ok to take other's work and disassemble it without permission - banned

- anyone who ignores the license information provided by the addon - banned

its sad really if anyone talks about cracking BIS content or game its ban time. Everytime we talk about cracking of content made in countless hours of dedicated members for no more then "thanks for a great addon!", all of a sudden its a DISCUSSION.

This is why forum is deteriorating. Not because we talk about such things but because we tolerate it.

[mrcash2009 0]

- anyone who releases a unauthorized (from the original author, not moderator) addon - banned

Agree.

- anyone who voices support for stealing/rereleasing without permission - banned

Support in what way, a debate about the whole notion of it? Could that be deemed support? This opens many shaded of grey areas that could ban someone (think about it, a ban is permanent stop from input on anything in the entire forum on any subject) about a single subject they might not know full info about and express a view, maybe just touch on it once.

- anyone who suggests it is ok to take other's work and disassemble it without permission - banned

Again, open becuase it depends on the context how it was said and what its in reference too.

- anyone who ignores the license information provided by the addon - banned

As in your first point?

Id say much like this thread will go, a lock on threads that go this way :o Or at least moderators making it clearer, deleting posts in a thread all related to it with maybe warnings, and a lock to be re opened if its justified. PM's would work, but that's more modder to modder and creation team chat, there is also posting on a profile of a person which is kind of PM but still public if allowed.

My point is, hardline banning would open more issues than it would close.

Edited February 11, 2011 by mrcash2009

[dmarkwick 261]

how about this for a rule:

- anyone who releases a unauthorized (from the original author, not moderator) addon - banned

- anyone who voices support for stealing/rereleasing without permission - banned

- anyone who suggests it is ok to take other's work and disassemble it without permission - banned

- anyone who ignores the license information provided by the addon - banned

This already happens. Oh - aside from point 3 which I know that for whatever reasons you are unreasonably opposed to :) as has been discussed several times, de-PBOing and mooching about to see how something works is a well established learnng technique, that I believe ALL modders have a right to.

its sad really if anyone talks about cracking BIS content or game its ban time. Everytime we talk about cracking of content made in countless hours of dedicated members for no more then "thanks for a great addon!", all of a sudden its a DISCUSSION.

This is why forum is deteriorating. Not because we talk about such things but because we tolerate it.

I believe you grossly inflate the issue :) I cannot recall ever seeing any addon (that I have an interest in anyway) that excluded me from seeing how it was done. Seeing how it was done, using the info, and crediting the author, is how things proceed in the modding world that is ArmA2.

And by "cracking" - do you mean the simple act of de-PBOing? Again, an over reaction to a simple procedure. As you're a modeler however, I might take the line that you're talking mainly about the use of someone's model. Similar to an image or a texture, I would agree on the issue of whether to make use or not - it's the author's property. Coding methods and solutions - go for it. Simple copy-and-paste is not on, if you cannot make use of the idea rather than the actual code, then don't use it.

Anyway. Yet another thread about to be locked for OT bunfighting ;) :)

Edited February 11, 2011 by DMarkwick

[soul_assassin 1750]

I believe you grossly inflate the issue I cannot recall ever seeing any addon (that I have an interest in anyway) that excluded me from seeing how it was done. Seeing how it was done, using the info, and crediting the author, is how things proceed in the modding world that is ArmA2.

And by "cracking" - do you mean the simple act of de-PBOing? Again, an over reaction to a simple procedure. As you're a modeler however, I might take the line that you're talking mainly about the use of someone's model. Similar to an image or a texture, I would agree on the issue of whether to make use or not - it's the author's property. Coding methods and solutions - go for it. Simple copy-and-paste is not on, if you cannot make use of the idea rather than the actual code, then don't use it.

Anyway. Yet another thread about to be locked for OT bunfighting

if in the readme, the authors expressly states that the addon should not be opened EVEN for education purposes then you should respect that decision. If he says that you can for education purposes only that can be seen as an implied permission for anyone to open it up and dig around. That is exactly the way I have my addon releases licensed. The point is that it is up to the author to decide, not up to the community.

[dmarkwick 261]

if in the readme, the authors expressly states that the addon should not be opened EVEN for education purposes then you should respect that decision. If he says that you can for education purposes only that can be seen as an implied permission for anyone to open it up and dig around. That is exactly the way I have my addon releases licensed. The point is that it is up to the author to decide, not up to the community.

Well, to be fair this is what I meant by over inflating the issue. I have never seen such a restriction. The only time I ever heard anything like it was with addons/missions that, for that exact reason, were never made public.

Making an issue on behalf of other people who may or may not exist, is a rather poor reason to make a flurry of bannable offences if I may say so :) particularly when those rules are already enforced.

[soul_assassin 1750]

its not that hard to understand. You download the addon, you are the user. The author is the owner. Open the readme and see what your rights are.

[dmarkwick 261]

its not that hard to understand. You download the addon, you are the user. The author is the owner. Open the readme and see what your rights are.

Well, try not to imagine me as someone who doesn't read a readme :)

Anyway, we obviously still have somewhat different views on the severity of the "problem", shall we simply shake hands and agree that more than one viewpoint exists? :)

[celery 8]

If an author doesn't want his creations looked at, he should refrain from releasing his creations, preferably without making a show of it. Of course I think it's very poor etiquette to use content created by other users without permission and/or due credit and such perpetrators should be shunned and their releases not supported. But there is such a thing as going overboard with IP claims and conditions in a non-commercial modding community.

[Evil_Echo 11]

I'm tired of self-appointed "police" harrassing people. They have managed to bully quite a few people out of the community. And where are the actual moderators?

New rules are useless if the current rules are not enforced. The author has sole rights to his work and that's it. If there is a problem, contact the author and then HE/SHE deals with it. BIS's job should be to back up the rights of that author - something they have done a miserable job at ( speaking from personal experience ).

As long as these conditions exist, any new rules are futile. There are a handful of out-of-control people on the forums ruining things - deal with them first and then see if any new rules are needed.

[Zipper5 74]

I hope you realize the irony in saying what BIS' job should be, and then saying that they are doing a bad job at doing so, when it's still not actually their job. It's like saying I'm doing a horrible job as a plumber when I am unemployed.

As for the moderators, we're here, and we're watching. When we feel the need to take action, we take it, and have taken it in the past.

[Tankbuster 1744]

This is why forum is deteriorating. Not because we talk about such things but because we tolerate it.

It's that simple, people. Read and understand.

[W0lle 1050]

While I agree that sometimes the discussion about IP and stolen (or alegedly stolen) content gets out of hand - as the one just yesterday which caused 2 people to leave - I don't think such a discussion should be moved to PMs where they are hidden from the public.

If someone really has stolen content and trying to 'sell' it as his own work, the people should be named in the public so everyone is aware of them.

But instead starting the same old discussion again and again, it would be better if people report such threads and we take care of it. The person who filed the report then could add a post like "Thread reported" to the thread so the rest knows about it and refrains from making pointless posts.

We don't need a new rule for that, which btw is pointless anyhow because those who steal content left and right surely gives a rat about forum rules. ;)

What is needed is more common sense. If you get mugged or seen someone getting mugged, you also don't run through the streets screaming 'The $&!§% just hit me' but you call the police, no?

[Tankbuster 1744]

Depends on how good the police are.

[Zipper5 74]

I think the caliber of the police is a null issue when you need help, unless you're living in Africa or something.

[Evil_Echo 11]

Perhaps perceptions are not the same as reality. But the appearance of standing by while someone bullies a person off the boards with false accusations, hyperbole, OT flames do not make the moderators look good. Nor does the behavior of some people acting as self-appointed moderators.

As per "not my job". Moderators, whether they work for BIS or not, are the representatives of BIS - they make or break the reputation of this forum.

If BIS will not support it's 3rd party devs, then where is the incentive for them to help you? The mods are the keystone to ArmA. If it weren't for ACE, Vilas, Mando, Loki, Gnat, RKSL, Myke, and many others this sim would be dead and forgotten. And right now, in my opinion, the talent pool is decaying. BI forums and how it influences morale does matter in this.

I do respect the moderators. But there are problems and those need prompt correction.

[rksl-rock 1300]

I think the caliber of the police is a null issue when you need help, unless you're living in Africa or something.

Depends if the police turn a blind eye if they like the mugger. Or occasionally let the mugger off with a warning doesn't it.

Or if the police just ignore the incident all together.

[soul_assassin 1750]

Depends if the police turn a blind eye if they like the mugger. Or occasionally let the mugger off with a warning doesn't it.

Or if the police just ignore the incident all together.

yep, it raises the age old question: "Who watches the watchmen"?

Edit: don't get me wrong, Ive been here since 2002 and thoroughly respect to the men who give their free time to make sure these forums are orderly. I'm just saying that it is beyond me how certain IP issues are even a topic of discussion? Why are the BI Forum staff not enforcing a ban or infractions on people who insist that peoples stuff can be taken, mended and changed without the authors permission? I dont see how there is a grey area here... you tell me I cant open ur pbo. I don't open it. I tell you that you are free to learn from it, then you can open it. I tell you that you can maybe modify it, just ask first...then that what you do... How on earth can there be middle ground?

Furthermore consider this: this discussion reaches the tipping point. People leave (like in the example of the couple in the past few days). People stop releasing publicly. Who would you rather went? The people who break open stuff edit a few things and rerelease? Or people who made the original addon? If its the latter, then by default the first group of people will just have nothing else to steal. bye bye addons...

Edited February 11, 2011 by Soul_Assassin

[dmarkwick 261]

It's a fine balance between "who watches the watchmen" and McCarthyism :)

[vilas 477]

Depends if the police turn a blind eye if they like the mugger. Or occasionally let the mugger off with a warning doesn't it.

Or if the police just ignore the incident all together.

or in some cases policeman as thief - such things also happen

i know one forum where thieves are admins/moders and second forum when talking about their action causes ban and one forum when it is fully tolerated and when you write about it - posts are deleted

i say about situation in my country forums

but

Anyway, we obviously still have somewhat different views on the severity of the "problem", shall we simply shake hands and agree that more than one viewpoint exists?

problem with viewpoint is that for some people your rights are matter of discuss

and in some cultures (mostly east like my) addon becomes "our property" not "property of author" , moreover , in some communities "if you can do addons, than it is your fu** duty to work hard for our fun you f***"

can you imagine such attitude, well , i know community members who treat addonmaker as "their slave and want his mobile number to shout at him to do something" , really, no joke

so discussion is hard when on one hand you have:

- author who spent many days, weeks on doing somethin

on the other hand :

- some shouting boys who believe that they are masters of guy above and they have rights to give him orders and it is his duty to obey them on knees

for them "addon released = their addon"

because of such attitude some really good modelers do not release anymore

do you believe that those two sides are equal ??

cause i don't ,

problem with addons with broken copyrights is because of two elements:

- one - another boy want to be famous, no matter of cost "to have his tag before any file"

- second - some communities "demand addon at any cost"

in situation where someone steal from you, you become their enemy cause "because of you we don't have new toy, you spoiled all you bastard"

so ?