Call for a new forum rule

[dm 9]

Glad to see we havent resorted to derogatory name calling in order to "make our point"... oh.. wait...

[Sennacherib 0]

where do you see an insult? I used a standard language

[dm 9]

I dunno, calling everyone who wants to protect their IP pretentious whiners might be seen as insulting, no?

Your entire post, and many of your posts in other similar threads, is written in a way that paints the "free source crowd" as gods among men, and those expressing an interest in protecting their IP as selfish greedy whiners. Its good spin, but as always with these threads its complete bs.

[rksl-rock 1259]

Of course, because I take moderator action based solely on false facts knowingly tarnishing my reputation and credibility for the entirety of my time as a moderator.

If none of what I said was true, I wouldn't have said it, and your thread would be reopened. Instead, it remains locked. Anyway, this thread isn't about your thread, so don't make it so. If you feel the need to discuss how the forum is moderated, I believe there's a rule that states it's not to be done publicly.

Since you brought it up. I'm with abs. When I read your comments in the RKSL thread I don't see any moderation. No clear instructions to me. Just some threats mixed in with a reply to another forum member. I just see a rather biased opinionated set of posts based on totally inaccurate views. I'm not alone either. There are enough people posting the same.

And when they posted about it, you changed your tack. You originally made a comment that was incredibly flawed and based solely on your own viewpoint. When other people disagreed and pointed that out you went on to say it was opinion then changed your mind to say it was "instruction" not "opinion". Surely you can see the confusion. It just looks like you made a mistake but wont back down now.

You also made some honestly incredible and laughable accusations:

• You accuse me of blackmailing BIS. Where have i ever said that? Please provide any sort of evidence. I would really like to knwo when or even how i did this.
  
• You accuse me buying my models? Do you actually know any of the actual facts of the situation?
  
• You accuse me of trying rally support for my cause. Where have I ever said,"Come join with me and we'll shake the foundations of establishment." All I have ever done is express my own opinion and answer questions directed at me. Exactly the same as everyone else around here.
  

If my posts in the PBO lock thread are a rallying call to "my cause" then I hope you handed out the same warnings to T_Rexian, Dwarden, DMArdwick and others. They were just as vocal as me about their own opinions

And If complaining about theft and the crappy attitudes of some people in this community is now illegal save some time, lock the entire board.

If you really want to know my attitude to the community do 3 things.

1. First actually talk to me - you've never once even sopken to me in any form.
   
2. Then go read my actual posts.
   
3. Finally talk to Marek about my attitude to the DLC tools and our discussions about the community. You have a very biased view of me and some others here. As DM suggests, it seems you are firmly in the open source camp. Not a good position for a supposedly impartial moderator in this community.
   

I'm told you are aching to ban me. But based on your posts here or in the RKSL thread and here I dont see that I've broken any published rules. Others don't see it either. It just appears to me that you don't like what i'm saying and want to stop me saying anything else because you disagree with me.

Gnat;1854145']And I going to paint a target on myself and say;

There are some well known addon makers here who now have several other (less than) hidden agenda's (whether they realise it or not !! )' date=' other than simply "releasing nice stuff for the community"... [/quote']

Gnat you've accused me other this before but never actually explained what these agendas are. Would you mind explaining now?

Edited February 12, 2011 by RKSL-Rock

[vilas 282]

and those expressing an interest in protecting their IP as selfish greedy whiners. Its good spin, but as always with these threads its complete bs.

of course selfish, don't you know ?

when i refused Z*** to give right to retag my addon, he or his team member said "i cannot agree cause than all glory will be for you"

hehe

i was updating my addon, he demanded to give it to him cause otherwise "all glory will be for you" and "this could be super Polish mod, but you spoiled everything"

so "selfish" is person who not allows to give his "glory" to other

by the way, i have no idea why some people must "have their tag before file" , maybe their life is ONLY game and internet that they get into anger and hate when "selfish takes all glory" ? we like modelling and some part of communit (minority) becoming very hatefull against us

why ?

instead of have fun

most players have no idea "what is behind scene" , but only from topics like this they can find , that "there is a second face of hobby" - this second face is hate, anger and spiting of some "wanna be famous , have glory" part

if someone would told me that "addonmakers get many hatefull messages" i would not believe someone

this "opening, selfish" etc. is also part of whole this attitude

normal people have no idea "why addonmakers get angry" and think we are overreacting

but if you would get mails like "give me or i will destroy you" you would realize why

first someone make "black PR" for example calling your addon crap, than he want release your stolen work as "this is good addon" (even if it is much worse and crappy)

[dmarkwick 259]

And If complaining about theft and the crappy attitudes of some people in this community is now illegal save some time, lock the entire board.

I quote this snippet to highlight that genralisations, distortions and simplifications are rife on both sides :)

I'm no thief, and my attitude is not crappy, it's merely different and aligns with the attitudes of many.

If I might point out, there seems to be a broadbrush division that seems to be defined by whether you make actual models, or do mainly scripting.

[rksl-rock 1259]

I quote this snippet to highlight that genralisations, distortions and simplifications are rife on both sides :)

Oh I don't think anyone disagrees on that. But some geralisations are more damaging than others.

It may be one of the few points we all could actually agree on.

I'm no thief, and my attitude is not crappy, it's merely different and aligns with the attitudes of many.

If I might point out, there seems to be a broadbrush division that seems to be defined by whether you make actual models, or do mainly scripting.

Who suggested you were?

There are different issues here which are all getting rolled into one bit distorted topic and that just plain wrong. People are "misreading" bits of previous posts, taking them out of context and representing them to suit their own views. Its just causing a lot of the confusion people seem to be suffering from.

Personally I see anyone that makes an addon regardless if it includes models or not as an addon maker. But as I said there is more than one issue here.

• "Peeking" into addons for learning
  
• Stealing from addons for Arma2 use
  
• Porting addons
  
• What constitutes "abandonware".
  
• Stealing and selling models
  
• The actual rights of addon makers - who owns what. I think its very simple but people repeat the same old myths so maybe it needs to be clearer.
  
• What an end user can acceptably do with a Freeware (not open source addon).
  
• Licensing - CC templates/frameworks to choose from.
  

And when it comes to the specific issue of models and theft I think its a bit harder for a scripter to appreciate a modeller's perspective. Not impossible but the leap seems to be quite hard for some to see why its such an issue.

Really I think this situation needs bottoming and a proper set of rules/guidelines worked out to suit the majority. Right now there is too much bias, threats and posturing going on.

Maruk started a thread on licensing building on the existing community rules has anything actually been agreed on that?

@ All, And how about we all stop the personal slights and insults. Frankly I'm tired of people telling me what my motives are. Lets step back grow up a bit and try and work out a proper framework for the rules we can all live with?

Or we can just keep going like this until we all really do hate each other.

Edited February 12, 2011 by RKSL-Rock

[PuFu 4296]

Where is the problem:

I truly believe a core problem is the grey area where content making is, from a legaly POV. If BIS would take their time to put these things in order, it would be easier for everyone to get a grip on it and put it in perspective.

Another real issue for me is when strong personal opinions about this subject being aired as BIS position on the matter, when in fact it isn’t. I am not gonna point fingers here, but I truly belive than when one has a position of authority, he/she should keep it objective in his/her posts, or just keep from posting personal opinions without actually saying it is his own view on the subject.

I agree with Celery that the missions are the core of the BIS games. Those are the ones that keep the game alive for years, a lor more than addons. Between all addons out there, I have the outmost respect for the islands, since, from my POV, the environment is the one giving the atmosphere of the game.

BUT, we all agree here that a game like A2 would be dead in weeks if community content wouldn’t exists. Then where is the problem when asking out of BIS to regulate the use, the creation and the ownership of those? I am pretty sure BIS members are aware that the longevility of their game lies in its community. No one is asking BI to protect addon makers IP, but rather detail and maintain the framework in which addon makers should function, which in all honesty is pretty blurry as it is

And what if a certain addon maker wants to release content in a form where it clearly specifies that any alteration from the original is prohibited? Is that to blame? Why? Because it doesn’t fit in “have it all open†some advocate? Because you cannot learn further from it? Have you truly tried contacting the creator and asking about it? I am sure he will be delighted to help out, even send you the original files for you to check it out. I haven’t come across someone who refused to answer my questions yet, or help out. Does your time spent sending a PM is worth more than the respect for another person spent time?

Remember that 95% of the ones asking you not to open their addons are doing it in order to protect their work from re-releasing, not from learning out of it.

Unfortunatly, things that should be common sense are not these days. A lot of those things could be easily managed in a friendly way, but seems it is not the case.

___

@the whiners

I don’t want recognition, I want respect for the work I’ve done, no matter what that is, and I don’t need turbosquid for it. If you or anyone else don’t agree with terms on using a product delivered to you freely, then you always have the other free alternative: don’t use it.

I have plenty of friends in BIS modding community, and I am pretty sure you aren’t one of those. Calling names is not gonna help you there either way.

Edited February 12, 2011 by PuFu

[wld427 1594]

In the end i think that we all agree that peeking in a PBO and seeing scripts and config work, using that stuff to figure out your own addons, and such have absolutely no harm on the addon making community. we all do it to BIS and each other as a way to educate ourselves. Without this ability to self educate it would be rather difficult to populate the sites such as armastack and comref.

There also needs to be standardization of moderation here. I too will agree that a specific forum moderator has been spreading his own personal form of moderation. It is clearly aimed at his own objectives and opinions. Moderators MUST remain impartial for this thing to work. Fortunatley for us the vast majority of moderators follow that principal. Unfortunately there are no repercussions for the one that doesn't.

As far as angry PMs go..... holy crap.... you should see my inbox somedays. Seems the old boys from SARMAT really don't like the RACS for some reason. I get lots of PMs on a regular basis. The vast majority are good or another new guy asking how to get started. The others you would not believe. I got death threats over a silly ported F-18 cause i didnt make marine skins.... seriously.... death threats..... i know its good to be passionate about stuff you like but that defiantely crosses the line.

[celery 7]

There also needs to be standardization of moderation here. I too will agree that a specific forum moderator has been spreading his own personal form of moderation. It is clearly aimed at his own objectives and opinions. Moderators MUST remain impartial for this thing to work. Fortunatley for us the vast majority of moderators follow that principal. Unfortunately there are no repercussions for the one that doesn't.

Since you obviously mean Zipper5, mind telling the rest of us how exactly he has wrongly moderated something? Do you feel that he has punished someone who shouldn't have been or the other way around? Or are you simply intimidated by his active participation in discussions?

[NoRailgunner 0]

One thing is if there is a need to change forum rules (this thread) and the other thing is about a crystal clear framework for the majority of addon + mission makers.

So why not open a new thread with ideas, suggestions and examples of a possible framework for all creatives? And all those people who even start bitchin or fighting will be banned at least for a week.

Sometimes simple things are hidden behind "lets make it complicate!"

[Evil_Echo 11]

To summarise the conversation.

1. We don't like uncivil behavior on the forums. Which includes, but is not limited to, flames, false accusations, and bullying.
   
2. We'd like the rules of engagement to be more clearly defined by BIS.
   
3. We'd like the moderators to take a firmer stance on uncivil behavior, but they must do so in a consistant way that strictly adheres to the rules of engagement as defined by BIS.
   

Anything else?

[Sennacherib 0]

I don’t want recognition, I want respect for the work I’ve done, no matter what that is, and I don’t need turbosquid for it. If you or anyone else don’t agree with terms on using a product delivered to you freely, then you always have the other free alternative: don’t use it.

I have plenty of friends in BIS modding community, and I am pretty sure you aren’t one of those. Calling names is not gonna help you there either way.

the Respect is something which can be earned only with acts, not through objects.

the modding is also the simple pleasure of sharing something, and without anything in counterpart; just a line in a readme is enough.

Sorry but in french (i'm french), whiners=pleurnicheurs is not an insult. this word represents an attitude.

if "whiners" is an insult in english, sorry for that. my english is far to be perfect.

[cbfasi 4]

I do not believe there is need for a special forum rules regarding this.

There are many risks in this community now, especially as there are many relatively new addon makers who have not the experiance to understand what is right or wrong about dealing with others addons.

It is all of us in this community that can help others with this lack of experiance.

We as a community need to be aware of the risk of mis-interpretation and this is rather clear especially in the topic matter that has drawn alot of comment recently.

There has been some reactions based on limited knowledge or based on comments made by those who support the illegal activities of the few.

We as a community need to sort this out WITHOUT displacing those of the community that can help us do better and more.

We do however need discourage those who support illegal activities in the realm of copyright.

Let us move forward..

Copying... well get permission, I have been asked and even at times made comments in the topic of the requester so others do know that permission has granted.

[wld427 1594]

Since you obviously mean Zipper5, mind telling the rest of us how exactly he has wrongly moderated something? Do you feel that he has punished someone who shouldn't have been or the other way around? Or are you simply intimidated by his active participation in discussions?

I have had some personal issues with Zipper5 in the past that him and i privately addressed on PMs. In accordance to the rules of this very forum i will not drag that information out here.

I hold nothing against Zipper5 personally i just feel that in the past he has adhered to a personal agenda instead of being completely impartial. I think its the responsibility of all the moderators to remain completely impartial in thier moderating. That is the impression that i get and many many others that i talk to on a regualar basis.

[dm 9]

Since you obviously mean Zipper5, mind telling the rest of us how exactly he has wrongly moderated something? Do you feel that he has punished someone who shouldn't have been or the other way around? Or are you simply intimidated by his active participation in discussions?

The moderators should always be impartial. It doesnt matter what they believe in personally, but when they have that tag under their name, they become the face of the company (on the forums at least). The members of the forums will often read their posts as the company policy.

What kind of mixed message does it send when on one hand you have the CEO of the freaking company starting a thread explaining how the addon makers rights are real and enforcable. And on the other hand you have the moderators saying "if you release something on the internet its tough titties, you have no way to protect it" and in some cases granting permission they dont not have the power to grant on orphaned works (which Rock questions here and earlier in the thread)?

Thats where the problem lies. How can the CEO be pushing one agenda and the moderators pushing their own completely different agenda? And honestly, the typical answer of "if you dont like it, leave" is just as harmful to the community as not being able to look inside each others pbo's.

[dmarkwick 259]

Who suggested you were?

Well that's part of the general problem of why these threads deteriorate. No-one will mention a name or point a meaningful finger, while terms like thief and crappy are then used to describe general behavior. If I were to continue the terrible PC correctness line I would reply with "where did I say you suggested" or something similar, and it would be a meaningless addition. It's fairly obvious to me that you believe my attitude to be crappy, you may choose to deny it but you have all but explicitly said those exact words throughout various threads, in fact you seem to implicitly believe you are right and that others are wrong rather than even acknowledge any point. Plus we all know what goes on, and insinuations can be taken by anyone as personal where that insinuation is generalised and without direction.

Anyways, I hope I haven't actually offended you with my interpretations, as you say it's easy to become embroiled in a situation that promotes actual dislike, and I wouldn't wish for that. We still have more in common than not I believe.

[celery 7]

I have had some personal issues with Zipper5 in the past that him and i privately addressed on PMs. In accordance to the rules of this very forum i will not drag that information out here.

I hold nothing against Zipper5 personally i just feel that in the past he has adhered to a personal agenda instead of being completely impartial. I think its the responsibility of all the moderators to remain completely impartial in thier moderating. That is the impression that i get and many many others that i talk to on a regualar basis.

His partiality seems very much like your own illusion unless you can explain how his moderating has been influenced by a perceived agenda.

The moderators should always be impartial. It doesnt matter what they believe in personally, but when they have that tag under their name, they become the face of the company (on the forums at least). The members of the forums will often read their posts as the company policy.

What kind of mixed message does it send when on one hand you have the CEO of the freaking company starting a thread explaining how the addon makers rights are real and enforcable. And on the other hand you have the moderators saying "if you release something on the internet its tough titties, you have no way to protect it" and in some cases granting permission they dont not have the power to grant on orphaned works (which Rock questions here and earlier in the thread)?

Thats where the problem lies. How can the CEO be pushing one agenda and the moderators pushing their own completely different agenda? And honestly, the typical answer of "if you dont like it, leave" is just as harmful to the community as not being able to look inside each others pbo's.

Now you're talking about opinion impartiality. I have always assumed that moderators are human beings and community members with their own opinions and ideas that they are allowed to voice, in addition to keeping the forums civil.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Celery

[soul_assassin 1429]

Well that's part of the general problem of why these threads deteriorate. No-one will mention a name or point a meaningful finger, while terms like thief and crappy are then used to describe general behavior. If I were to continue the terrible PC correctness line I would reply with "where did I say you suggested" or something similar, and it would be a meaningless addition. It's fairly obvious to me that you believe my attitude to be crappy, you may choose to deny it but you have all but explicitly said those exact words throughout various threads, in fact you seem to implicitly believe you are right and that others are wrong rather than even acknowledge any point. Plus we all know what goes on, and insinuations can be taken by anyone as personal where that insinuation is generalised and without direction.

Anyways, I hope I haven't actually offended you with my interpretations, as you say it's easy to become embroiled in a situation that promotes actual dislike, and I wouldn't wish for that. We still have more in common than not I believe.

but noone has to point a finger at anyone to realize that the problem is there. Thieving occurs here, on this forum and in general in the whole community. We know the problem is there.

So there are two camps:

1. Your proposal: accept it and do nothing.

The problem with your solution: this actually drives genuine developers away since they get fed up with their stuff being stolen, redistributed unaccredited. People go underground, no innovation occurs at all, no interesting pbo to hack are available to the public anymore. Stagnation of 150th re-release of the still buggy F14. Addonmakers stop sharing information on the forums.

2. Our proposal: lets do something about it, make rules, apply algorithms that give the CHOICE (!!!) to lock pbo's.

The problem with this solution: this drives away thieving scum that won't have anything to steal anymore. Information IS STILL there if only you type a PM to the author. Authors feel safer, more willing to share innovation. Granted that some won't, but hey its Their (!!) choice.

[Placebo 12]

If you believe your IP has been compromised I cannot see any reason why we should set a rule "forcing" you to hide the issue away, as I have told numerous people they should feel free to make a polite, civil post along the lines of "I believe content in this addon/mod is mine and is being used without permission, I have reported this thread to the moderators" (and obviously use the report post function to report it), we will then investigate, I don't see any reason to change that policy nor see any grounds for changing this policy or adding/amending rules on this issue. The whole permission for using content system is pretty well laid out these days.