Realtime immersive - Militar simulator cryengine

[*LK1* 10]

Threads merged, LegendK1ller gets infraction (as he failed to use search first)

also serious games (simulators) don't rely on visuals but dozens way more important facts behind

curious. noone said the contrare but you feel to specify something on most of us agree with.

however understimating the importance of the graphic for a wannabe simulative product is a fail. seriusly go find a cover behind a bush which is not fine reproduced and get a bullet from the enemy. then you guys will undertand why graphic is important.

or get spotted cuz your scope reflex gave your pos. then you will realize why graphic matters.

Just proved you know nothing about how these things work, please stop commenting. K thx bai.

.

is something which has to interact with the engine but is not directly related.

hope you can find the difference.

so since we were talking about the crytek engine and the guy said "ehi but we dont have squad command or RTE" and those things are not dependents from the engine..thats a fail simply. he moved the discussion from the engine to the software and all the functions it could have...which is another thing.

keep commeting plz cuz is funny enough :bounce3:

has already happened, i really suggest you to take a break, reorganize your ideas then press reply.

Edited October 23, 2011 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[PuFu 4600]

1. RV engine models are higher in terms of poly count than crysis ones. From a texture POV, things are the same. (i am sure you never actually used BI tools or crytek SDK - or any other SDK for that matter, so you're talking out of your ass atm).

2. VBS has a lot of developers and 3rd party guys making custom stuff for it, and the amount of detail, functionality and models are already there for the taking. RSI won't be able to compete here, not from the start anyways.

3. VBS is an ongoing development. New stuff is being added with each new iteration, there is no point to argue there. Stuff like volumetric weather and clouds is possible inside RV engine, and will see light in VBS rather sooner than later. Things such as real sky dome and its movement is not possible within cryengine afaik.

4. ballistics means only putting values in? really? You obviously know very little about this subject, you could just drop it... Things are directly related. If the engine is unable to simulate bullet drop and gravity, you have nothing to work with as a licensor.

5. Atm. there is no competition. There is, as previously said, a lot more to deal with besides the gfx (like in all other games, shaders in crysis are focused on contrast, blueish overlay etc) before there can be a real match for VBS or RV engine for the matter. Do they aim on the same market. I am sure they'll try. But from everything seen so far, there is NOTHING that would appeal to a military branch. Only gamers are the one interested in gfx more than anything else such as gameplay and functionality.

take a chill pill please.

Edited October 23, 2011 by PuFu

[roberthammer 582]

Army don't care about graphics and this is Crytek idea to gain some money on "Mil sim" area , where the VBS 2 is way better - see PuFu's post ^

[purepassion 22]

and let me just quickly throw this in :)

UsBvXTAdPR4

[Serclaes 0]

volumetric cloud, dynamic weather, dynamic water, corrent water, dynamic light...at all these point is far better of the RV engine. have you just saw the video?

And those points are pretty unnecessary for a simulator. Iirc VBS2 doesnt even have normal or specular mapping because it only serves one purpose: having to buy more expensive hardware.

If they want "dynamic" weather or such, they code an interface with which the instructor can change the weather. That's the kind of dynamic needed.

I think you're missing the purpose of this simulator. It's not to replace 100% of training and manoever. It's there to complement it. Make teaching the basics easier, lay tactical foundations which can be refined in the field. Training in a simulator is a hell of a lot less time consuming, less costly and less dangerous.

Oh and i want to see the engine capable of rendering a sunlight reflection on my glasses 500m away.

[*LK1* 10]

1. RV engine models are higher in terms of poly count than crysis ones. From a texture POV, things are the same. (i am sure you never actually used BI tools or crytek SDK - or any other SDK for that matter, so you're talking out of your ass atm).

you must be a realtime imm. beta tester. because unless us you must have putted your hands on the crytek SDK.

and no i higlhy doubt the poly count of the RV is higher.. because you have just to take a look on the video to undertand how big this bullshit is.

2. VBS has a lot of developers and 3rd party guys making custom stuff for it, and the amount of detail, functionality and models are already there for the taking. RSI won't be able to compete here, not from the start anyways.

genious. a product whos never borned at the moment is not able to compete with a product whos on the market for years. if they are going to compete you'll see it after couple of years.

4. ballistics means only putting values in? really? You obviously know very little about this subject, you could just drop it... Things are directly related. If the engine is unable to simulate bullet drop and gravity, you have nothing to work with as a licensor.

pathetic.the game will support ballistic has they said and the engine takes in consideration gravity ecc. so my point which was clear to anyone who intentionally dont want to understand it is: when you have a game with gravity on it you just take bullets/weapons( kinetic power ecc..) values and you add them on the game. do you know which physics engines on the last 5/ 6 years doesnt take in consideration gravity( fps games of course)? bf2 engine and cod. so i suppose and it's confirmed that crytek engine will take it consideration.

i would add a point

6) we are just talking about a product which is less than a beta but a work in progress against a finished a bit old, buggy but relaiable product.

clearly the fanboyz base armed and ready to fight with the worst and pathetic rethoric tricks.

Only gamers are the one interested in gfx more than anything else such as gameplay and functionality.

yes. like the us army. a bunch of nerd net-gamers.

do you have a more serious and credible reason to explain why they put their hands on this product instead of the debatable reason that they are just searching a new way to wast money(nosense).

probably because RV is a bit old and to much buggy? isnn't it?

you guys really dont know what you are talking about.

---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

and let me just quickly throw this in :)

nothing that can be done only with vbs2. i mean is just a nice video but has nothing to do with the topic.

Edited October 23, 2011 by Foxhound
Do not quote videos!

[purepassion 22]

you guys really dont know what you are talking about.

So why are you still "arguing" with "us" anyways ? :)

Edited October 23, 2011 by PurePassion

[eble 3]

you must be a realtime imm. beta tester. because unless us you must have putted your hands on the crytek SDK.

and no i higlhy doubt the poly count of the RV is higher.. because you have just to take a look on the video to undertand how big this bullshit is.

genious. a product whos never borned at the moment is not able to compete with a product whos on the market for years. if they are going to compete you'll see it after couple of years.

pathetic.the game will support ballistic has they said and the engine takes in consideration gravity ecc. so my point which was clear to anyone who intentionally dont want to understand it is: when you have a game with gravity on it you just take bullets/weapons( kinetic power ecc..) values and you add them on the game. do you know which physics engines on the last 5/ 6 years doesnt take in consideration gravity( fps games of course)? bf2 engine and cod. so i suppose and it's confirmed that crytek engine will take it consideration.

i would add a point

6) we are just talking about a product which is less than a beta but a work in progress against a finished a bit old, buggy but relaiable product.

clearly the fanboyz base armed and ready to fight with the worst and pathetic rethoric tricks.

yes. like the us army. a bunch of nerd net-gamers.

do you have a more serious and credible reason to explain why they put their hands on this product instead of the debatable reason that they are just searching a new way to wast money(nosense).

probably because RV is a bit old and to much buggy? isnn't it.

you guys really dont know what you are talking about.

---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

nothing that can be done only with vbs2. i mean is just a nice video but has nothing to do with the topic.

since when has VBS been buggy?

[roberthammer 582]

@***LeGeNDK1LLER***

lol sry dude ,but you are the one who dont know what are you talking about.

[dm 9]

you guys really dont know what you are talking about.

I don't think I can take the IRONY

[*LK1* 10]

And those points are pretty unnecessary for a simulator.

no. if we talk about corrent water, volumetric cloud and dynamic lights these things are a must have for a simulator. because they could interact with bulletts,other stuff and the way how the players play.

AIirc VBS2 doesnt even have normal or specular mapping because it only serves one purpose: having to buy more expensive hardware.

if we want to go deeper even the gravity for the bullet drop is not necessary, because you can simply works on the parameters of the bullets to make them simulating the gravity. but i was afraid to post this since some expert would start to reconsider his own ideas about mislims. i dont want to be the trigger for an interior change.

but the problem is that you have to code everything instead to let the engine deal with it. which could make the game more heavy.

So why are you still "arguing" with "us" anyways ? :)

is the last post seriusly. i just tryed i saw that's pretty much impossible with fanboyz and im going to do like other modders and players: i will never try again to debate with people who simply is not able to, i'll stay away from here. lack of neurons. that's the problem.

Edited October 23, 2011 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[maddogx 13]

if we want to go deeper even the gravity for the bullet drop is not necessary, because you can simply works on the parameters of the bullets to make them simulating the gravity. but i was afraid to post this since some expert would start to reconsider his own ideas about mislims. i dont want to be the trigger for an interior change.

Wow. Just wow. I think the bolded part gives an interesting insight into your hugely over-inflated ego, which explains why every single thread you create or post in goes down the shitter pretty fast.

Don't you think it's weird how whenever you start a discussion it's always you vs. everyone else? And somehow, according to you, it's everyone else that doesn't know what they're talking about, while you are apparently an authority on every single subject that crosses your mind. It's almost funny.

[dm 9]

and no i higlhy doubt the poly count of the RV is higher.. because you have just to take a look on the video to undertand how big this bullshit is.

This little gem falls into the same category as:

since was used as a "MBT" during the advance of the french foreign legion in desert storm i'm highly doubting that is not able to shoot while is moving...

i mean is so easy to understand you are talking a big bullshit :j:...french foreign legion wouldn't use this vehicle like a front line tank during desert storm if was not able to shoot while is moving.

"I saw some anecdotal 'evidence' so clearly it must be the case!"

Protip: You can NOT judge polycount based on an ingame video, since it will also have all the special maps and shaders active to make things look nicer. Like I said, get a clue what you're talking about before you pretend to be an expert.

nothing that can be done only with vbs2. i mean is just a nice video but has nothing to do with the topic.

Its funny how when some feature is part of the cry engine, its instantly a VBS killer, but when its proven to be working in VBS already its just not important or relevant? Neat.

[PuFu 4600]

you must be a realtime imm. beta tester. because unless us you must have putted your hands on the crytek SDK.

and no i higlhy doubt the poly count of the RV is higher.. because you have just to take a look on the video to undertand how big this bullshit is.

1. those videos are nothing new. Maybe there are to you, but i guess everything is new to you by the way you post. For the amount of knowledge you have on the subject, you are a very persistent ignorant little bugger, i'll give you that.

2. the SDK has been available for some time, it's not my fault you are, yet again, ignorant: http://www.crydev.net/dm_eds/download_detail.php?id=4

genious. a product whos never borned at the moment is not able to compete with a product whos on the market for years. if they are going to compete you'll see it after couple of years.

You are the one who made the comparison in the first place, not me. Sort of fish memory you got...

pathetic.the game will support ballistic has they said and the engine takes in consideration gravity ecc. so my point which was clear to anyone who intentionally dont want to understand it is: when you have a game with gravity on it you just take bullets/weapons( kinetic power ecc..) values and you add them on the game. do you know which physics engines on the last 5/ 6 years doesnt take in consideration gravity( fps games of course)? bf2 engine and cod. so i suppose and it's confirmed that crytek engine will take it consideration.

It is obvious you never played with any physics engine yourself, and you base all you assumptions on some YT vids. Because if you were, you'd know that 99% of the physics engines are not 1:1 representation of the real life. That said, if you put in a bullet weighing the exact amount of its real counter part, the results would be different.

6) we are just talking about a product which is less than a beta but a work in progress against a finished a bit old, buggy but relaiable product.

Buggy but reliable? really? Do YOU own VBS2 personal edition? Have you actually played with it YOUrself? Or is your "review" based, yet again, on YT videos?

clearly the fanboyz base armed and ready to fight with the worst and pathetic rethoric tricks.

Everyone is stating facts. You are the only one who are childish enough beliving every single word without proof, and that is because you know very little (and this little that you know is fundamentally flawed) about the subject at hand.

EDIT:

regarding poly counts (based on the assets available for the SDK 3);

SCAR - 2100 poly

UH60 - 13000 poly

by no means at the level of detail of A2 models. Next time, get your facts straight laddie

Edited October 23, 2011 by PuFu

[Macadam Cow 1]

i will never try again to debate with people who simply is not able to, i'll stay away from here. lack of neurons. that's the problem.

Great news !

You're so much smarter than us, you must be the arithmetic man; you add trouble, subtract pleasure, divide attention, and multiply ignorance...

IIRC the purpose of VBS isn't to be a "grunt" simulator. It's meant to be used by officers, to test plans, tactics,...

From what we've seen so far RI seems to be aimed at soldiers. So in the end they might be used together wihtout one replacing the other.

[*LK1* 10]

This little gem falls into the same category as

"I saw come anecdotal 'evidence' so clearly it must be the case!

and it was. because that tank was able of course to shoot and move at the same time or it wouldmt beig used in the front line of desert storm :rolleyes:

plz as the chemical weapons suggest you. refrein yourself from posting :rolleyes:

Protip: You can NOT judge polycount based on an ingame video, since it will also have all the special maps and shaders active to make things look nicer. Like I said, get a clue what you're talking about before you pretend to be an expert.

you must be a paesant seriusly. sure you can. the level of the difference of poli count of 2 images can be easily established just by watching the 2 images. of course, and you are smart enough tp understand it( are you? no im not ironic), you cant establish a precise number. but you can clearly see where the poly count is higher. seriusly where you live? under a coconut tree?

Its funny how when some feature is part of the cry engine, its instantly a VBS killer, but when its proven to be working in VBS already its just not important or relevant? Neat.

i never saw is an insta killer, that's 1 of the rethoric tricks i was speaking about a couple of post before. is ridicolous how you are tring to change the cards on the table. basically because even a children can see you while you are doing it. that video is simply showing how you can use stationary position with a fake minigun mounted on it to simulate the usage of a mini gun. well this is nothing so special than another simulator couldnt do.

you can keep touching yourself for that and even wet your paints but is nothing special :j:

1. those videos are nothing new. Maybe there are to you, but i guess everything is new to you by the way you post. For the amount of knowledge you have on the subject, you are a very persistent ignorant little bugger, i'll give you that.

are you going to say something usefull and at the same time in topic 1 of these days or you will keep exposing nosense theories but with the behaviour and attitude of an old professor teaching gameology? cuz is fun..:bounce3:

bubu the problem is not how old these videos are. because i/we dont care a fukk about how old they are. and they are not old as you are suggesting. 1 more time we saw the national guard for free brigade jumping to immotivated conclusions without any proof against a potential bis killer product.

you dont know mostly anything of this product, as you clearly proved by saying false things but you already said theres no way it can compete with vbs2. funny and how you know that? your marvelleous assumptions came from?

dont get offended when someones call you funboyz when you act like a funboyz. defend your toy there's no problem. but plz dont pretend to be taken seriusly while you speak.

2. the SDK has been available for some time, it's not my fault you are, yet again, ignorant: http://www.crydev.net/dm_eds/download_detail.php?id=4

and? you came up to some conclusion by proving something which is even far away to be considerated an alpha version? do you have proved any feature about the game, do you ever know how i will loooks like, any future update, changelog ecc? no of course not you just dont know a damn of the product, but with your debatable logic you reach the conclusion that is going to be a fail or at least it will never be goof as vbs2? how do you know that? you cant know that, you are just funboizing.

do i have to quote you as usually i have to do with DM to sending him back on his cave or you remember your stataments about RTI?

2. the SDK has been available for some time, it's not my fault you are, yet again, ignorant: http://www.crydev.net/dm_eds/download_detail.php?id=4

You are the one who made the comparison in the first place, not me. Sort of fish memory you got...

no. i said the the engine and the software, due to his engine, has a lot of potential. since i consider a realistic graphic very important for a simulative game. plus the engine itself indipendently by the graphis as a lot of potential.

the only 1 who made comparision is you:

1. RV engine models are higher in terms of poly count than crysis ones. From a texture POV, things are the same. (i am sure you never actually used BI tools or crytek SDK - or any other SDK for that matter, so you're talking out of your ass atm).

2. VBS has a lot of developers and 3rd party guys making custom stuff for it, and the amount of detail, functionality and models are already there for the taking. RSI won't be able to compete here, not from the start anyways.

3. VBS is an ongoing development. New stuff is being added with each new iteration, there is no point to argue there. Stuff like volumetric weather and clouds is possible inside RV engine, and will see light in VBS rather sooner than later. Things such as real sky dome and its movement is not possible within cryengine afaik.

4. ballistics means only putting values in? really? You obviously know very little about this subject, you could just drop it... Things are directly related. If the engine is unable to simulate bullet drop and gravity, you have nothing to work with as a licensor.

5. Atm. there is no competition. There is, as previously said, a lot more to deal with besides the gfx (like in all other games, shaders in crysis are focused on contrast, blueish overlay etc) before there can be a real match for VBS or RV engine for the matter. Do they aim on the same market. I am sure they'll try. But from everything seen so far, there is NOTHING that would appeal to a military branch. Only gamers are the one interested in gfx more than anything else such as gameplay and functionality.

so as you can see from your weird poly count theories to the personal theories about this future competition you are the only ignorant with solid conclusion bases on nothing. because 1 of the "games" we are talking is far from being an alpha or a beta is just a working in progress.

2. the SDK has been available for some time, it's not my fault you are, yet again, ignorant: http://www.crydev.net/dm_eds/download_detail.php?id=4

It is obvious you never played with any physics engine yourself, and you base all you assumptions on some YT vids. Because if you were, you'd know that 99% of the physics engines are not 1:1 representation of the real life. That said, if you put in a bullet weighing the exact amount of its real counter part, the results would be different.

you keepchearliding aren't you? let me know tell you something:

you never played with a physics engine as 99% of us and you never had a psysics card on your pc. the maximum you have done is playing a game with an psysics engine whos just trying to simulate psysics with a decent result.

or you are 1 of the tons of people which they dont even know the difference froma psysics card, a video card, the real psysics and a psysics engine?

2. the SDK has been available for some time, it's not my fault you are, yet again, ignorant: http://www.crydev.net/dm_eds/download_detail.php?id=4

Buggy but reliable? really? Do YOU own VBS2 personal edition? Have you actually played with it YOUrself? Or is your "review" based, yet again, on YT videos?

very buggy, talking to 1 of the few whos owning a copy of vbs2. unless like many other, as you for example, i usually speak of things i know.

2. the SDK has been available for some time, it's not my fault you are, yet again, ignorant: http://www.crydev.net/dm_eds/download_detail.php?id=4

Everyone is stating facts. You are the only one who are childish enough beliving every single word without proof, and that is because you know very little (and this little that you know is fundamentally flawed) about the subject at hand.

true you guys are exposing your bizarre personal facts and keep using poor rethoric tricks. im not believing anything since i didnt take as real any conclusion i read on RTI forum. as i didint with a1 confirmated features and bis claims. the main difference is tha i dont believe till i see what RTI is working on but i dont believe BIS neither. simply because im not a funboy.

the problem with internet is just that. to much people want to comunicate to few brains want do it properly. and to many funboys of course. hope you get paid at least. and ehi, never jump inside a game-depelover forum to say "there's a product on the horizon who looks good".

mangificising a crap product like RV..omg.

but what we can pretend from you, you are 1 of the real genious known of this forum. 1 of the few cutting his venis because PR is not going to release a free product able to being modified :j:

Great news !

You're so much smarter than us, you must be the arithmetic man; you add trouble, subtract pleasure, divide attention, and multiply ignorance...

IIRC the purpose of VBS isn't to be a "grunt" simulator. It's meant to be used by officers, to test plans, tactics,...

From what we've seen so far RI seems to be aimed at soldiers. So in the end they might be used together wihtout one replacing the other.

here we have another genious, and how you know that? for what we have seen RTI and vbs2 neither are aimed to high rank officers. they are just good to training squads in specific situations. not to organize large trainings.

you guys are epic, equals to your ignorance, unreachable like your faith on BIS "always in beta" products.

Edited October 23, 2011 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[purepassion 22]

"Solved a multiple page discussion with a simple question"

Best regards ;)

EDIT: hmmm he posted again

Edited October 23, 2011 by PurePassion

[*LK1* 10]

there's no question on your post however :( lol...:rolleyes:

you guys are 1 of the reasons why these games as not evolved so much as they should from ofp. the same bugs and problems over and over. cuz the funboyz are keep defending everything anytime.

Edited October 23, 2011 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[Macadam Cow 1]

simply because im not a funboy.

Oh yes you are :)

Seeing how you're insulting everyone you're going to be banned soon or late, so I'll post one last quote suiting you like a glove :

Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go.

You don't want to debate anything you just want us to agree with you...

Have a nice day, funboy

Edited October 23, 2011 by Macadam Cow

[*LK1* 10]

im impressed. nothing to do with the post but impressed. i hope 1 day you funboyz will deal with different opinions. and stop bullshitting. a fact is a fact. comparing the crap RV with the crytek is just a poor funboyz action.

---------- Post added at 05:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:37 PM ----------

Seeing how you're insulting everyone you're going to be banned soon or late, so I'll post one last quote suiting you like a glove :

Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go.

You don't want to debate anything you just want us to agree with you...

Have a nice day, funboy

:(:(:(..lol.

you are a very persistent ignorant little bugger, i'll give you that.

2. the SDK has been available for some time, it's not my fault you are, yet again, ignorant:

you clearly are moving over the offence came from the guys who thinks in your same way. and you keep focus on the other. that's faciious and childish.

[NoRailgunner 0]

If you want some facts and values of the Military Simulation and Virtual Training Market you can purchase it - just for US$ 2,350.00! It said that in 2011 this market is worth $8.75bn and its growing. Guess how many companies (alone or in cooperation) want a slice of this cake? ;)

[froggyluv 2136]

comparing the crap RV...

Pretty disrespectful to come to a game's forum and call their engine crap don't ya think :rolleyes:

You seem to want to have it both ways -lavishing huge praise on RI yet shooting down all critique due to it's Alpha state -you can't have it both ways.

RI does have some visual effects that look downright impressive but they still have a long way to go to prove they can match the open-worldness, scale and versatility of RV. Nobody's come close and refuse to even try -for a reason.

[dm 9]

and it was. because that tank was able of course to shoot and move at the same time or it wouldmt beig used in the front line of desert storm :rolleyes:

Yet when I post information from respectable websites (afterall, in your own words, if it comes from a respectable website we have be believe it, right?

we shoed you links from credible newspapers, wikipedia, other chemical website but you didnt change your opinion.

Credible source, conveniently ignored by you

Key info being:

AMX 10 RC

Specifications

ARMORED VEHICLES AMX-10 RC Recon

Main Armament (caliber, model) 105-mm 48-cal Gun

Ammunition type APFSDS, HEAT, HE

Range, effective (m) 2000+

Stabilized No

But because the French used them in the Gulf War they clearly must be better than that? Right? You think they must be amazing because no one would ever use old equipment in a war. No, they'd have to upgrade everything to be cutting-edge. Because of what you think, one of the most credible defence information websites must be wrong...)

You conveniently choose to ignore it? One standard for you, one standard for everyone else it seems... So until you can prove that you can actually read what people write, we are going to continue to disagree with you and your "knowledge"

i usually speak of things i know.

Riiiiight...

here we have another genious, and how you know that? for what we have seen RTI and vbs2 neither are aimed to high rank officers. they are just good to training squads in specific situations. not to organize large trainings.

you guys are epic, equals to your ignorance, unreachable like your faith on BIS "always in beta" products.

Olololololol. Yeah, so VBS2 being used by NATO to perform large scale training scenarios with the use of constructive simulations is "a bullshits". Or collaborative training between the RAF and the USAF are totally fake, or pre-deployment training by the USMC, USArmy, ADF, British Army etc etc etc. You really have NO idea what you are talking about, so please stop with the ignorance.

stop bullshitting. a fact is a fact. comparing the crap RV with the crytek is just a poor funboyz action.

Ok, please state clearly what your FACTS about RTI's product are. Because as far as I'm aware, the only information thats available is PR videos on youtube. Hardly a source of legitimate FACTS.

---------- Post added at 18:32 ---------- Previous post was at 18:23 ----------

you must be a realtime imm. beta tester. because unless us you must have putted your hands on the crytek SDK.

Called out on your crap:

the SDK has been available for some time, it's not my fault you are, yet again, ignorant: http://www.crydev.net/dm_eds/download_detail.php?id=4

Yet all you can do is call the person who actually posted factual information "childish".

the SDK has been available for some time, it's not my fault you are, yet again, ignorant: http://www.crydev.net/dm_eds/download_detail.php?id=4

you clearly are moving over the offence came from the guys who thinks in your same way. and you keep focus on the other. that's faciious and childish.

But we're the "funboyz"? Looks like you'd be more at home on the crytek forums doing what you claim we are (kissing cryteks ass)

Edited October 23, 2011 by DM

[franze 196]

Let's bring a little decorum back in this thread, please.

[PuFu 4600]

Let's bring a little decorum back in this thread, please.

much obliged :cool: