North Korea shells the South, South retaliates

[spooky lynx 73]

As I already stated the majority of their weapons are not bought anymore. They may still buy missiles and bombs, but the amount would not change unless war broke out.

O RLY? And what about F-15K contract for example?:)

You ask why we're building ABM bases in eastern europe. Maybe it has to do with Russia trading a communist dictatorship for a ultra-nationalist one. Maybe it's because Russia is invading countries that are in the process of gaining full membership into NATO. Maybe it's because of something that has nothing to do with what I just listed. In short I don't know nor do I care. I don't fully agree with the ABM bases, but at the same time I also know that ABMs provide a balance of power which in all honestly is a lot better than what you had to deal with during the cold war which was tactical nukes ready to strike in the event of a Russian launch.

Well, it's only our business which regimes to trade with. Look at Saudi Arabia and its political and social system - that is the same dictatorship with king ruling it. But... Is it treated anyway? No. Why? Answer is simple - it's friendly dictatorship regime.

BTW Russia didn't withdraw it was kicked out there's a difference. Learn your history.

Learn history too, without good will of M. Gorbachev (well, I have a lot to say about him but then I will be banned for using explicit words) no single soldier would withdraw from east-european countries, and no treaty about withdrawing Soviet army from former Warsaw Pact countries would be ever discussed.

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

.

I don't fully agree with the ABM bases, but at the same time I also know that ABMs provide a balance of power which in all honestly is a lot better than what you had to deal with during the cold war which was tactical nukes ready to strike in the event of a Russian launch.

The tac-nukes weren't the scariest bit it was the strategic ones that were the issue combined with the "you launch, we launch, everyone dies" thinking behind the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction.

The whole attitude of the North Koreans is scary to be honest, if they engaged in a war with the South and only South Korea they'd probably win but the only way they could possibly win against SK's allies is to use their nuclear weapons. Everyone knows this and NK know they know so there really isn't anything to be gained from being international wankers unless they really really do want to start a war.

[vilas 473]

Well, it's only our business which regimes to trade with. Look at Saudi Arabia and its political and social system - that is the same dictatorship with king ruling it. But... Is it treated anyway? No. Why? Answer is simple - it's friendly dictatorship regime.

don't you know that beheading women in SA is not the same as in Iran ?

don't you know that people dying from bullet from M16 used by right-wing colonel are not the same as people dying from AK bullet used by left-wing colonel in other continent ? freedom is only real freedom when it's brought on board of M113, not BMP :]

that was joke of course, but apart from US foreign issues, TV propaganda (Osetia last example)

if people say about poor life condition of people in NK

what are good condition (also apart from homeless on streets of big west cities)

if i have EOS 50D + 3 lens , all worthy 3000 USD , am i rich ?

people in Belarus, NK cause earn 100 dollars, will never buy EOS 50D

but hi, they have flat, they can live in own flat

i cannot buy flat, cause in my city it is 150 000 USD

so who have better condition ? man with DSLR + lens (living with parents) or people with own flat (but not able to ever buy EOS) ???

will you call their life worse, cause they earn 50USD , but can have a house/flat , or man who earns 500 USD but cannot buy house/flat ?

people often say about poor life condition counting on dollars (looking at electronic toys)

i have family in Belarus , they earn low money comparing to me, but they can buy more, cause have cheaper prices

my step-sister (granddaughter of my grandfather's brother) was in Poland few years, she back to Belarus , to so called evil regime and she is happy there, was not happy in PL , so how is with those poor conditions>? here she would never afford own flat, there in BLR she has

here streets are danger, there not

here she would wait cause ambulance has no money, there not , so ?

what is "wrong living conditions" when we compare countries

do men who is hungry on street need democracy or food and roof over head

100 USD earning vs 500 USD earning ?

cost of flat 30 vs. 200-300 monthly ?

what is worthy earning 2 or 3 times more here in PL than she has on Belarus , when cost of life is 4 times bigger ? do we count poor living conditions on flat/roof over head or on LCDs, DSLRs, cars ?

Edited December 2, 2010 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

The whole attitude of the North Koreans is scary to be honest, if they engaged in a war with the South and only South Korea they'd probably win but the only way they could possibly win against SK's allies is to use their nuclear weapons. Everyone knows this and NK know they know so there really isn't anything to be gained from being international wankers unless they really really do want to start a war.

I shoudn't say so. Victory can be reached either through 2-times technological superiority or through 4-times numerical superiority. So, maybe it's even not necessary to use WMD.

[Big Mac 19]

O RLY? And what about F-15K contract for example?

That is a joint US/SK project. Projects like that are not uncommon.. If you actually look at the SK TO&E you'll see there are very few actual American toys. Thats not to say that American doesn't advise and lend support but even that is limited since for example we won't give SK or Japan our fly-by-wire software so they've come up with their own software.

Well, it's only our business which regimes to trade with. Look at Saudi Arabia and its political and social system - that is the same dictatorship with king ruling it. But... Is it treated anyway? No. Why? Answer is simple - it's friendly dictatorship regime.

And what makes you think I support the America's relationship with the Saudis? You'll find that most Americans look at the Saudis as two-faced and not to be trusted and most would agree that the only thing keeping us in bed with the Saudi's is the American oil companies.

As I said before your country has done 10 times worse than mine so when you attack my country it's like the pot calling the kettle black.

[BigMorgan 11]

do men who is hungry on street need democracy or food and roof over head

Just want to point at that in the US the homeless don't even have democracy.

If you don't have an address you can't register to vote. Lose your home and you lose the franchise.

[vilas 473]

Just want to point at that in the US the homeless don't even have democracy.

If you don't have an address you can't register to vote. Lose your home and you lose the franchise.

super... the same with legal work probably

in my country - legal work = NIP (tax registration number) etc.

many people lost their homes after "comercialisation" of blocks from manufacturers living blocks (many factories had own place for workers)

someone said that in Poland it touched nearly 0.5% of society - horror, 200 000 people (police+army number), they also cannot vote, work... only die, due to "privatisation" of state-blocks near factory that was bought (also factor that all now is "made in China" < it is problem, cause over half of our light-industry bankrupted , almost all fabric, t-shirt production, even shoes and jackets and socks )

i really don't know what to think about so called NK-starvation when i think about our own (my too) west world

NK is probably only trying to get more money from US/UN help, nothing more, they are not suicidal to start any war with MiG15 and T55

Edited December 2, 2010 by vilas

[enforcer1975 0]

I hope one of the assholes giving them financial aid gets their heads out of their butts and rethinks why they should give money to a state that can build nuclear plants and bombs...not a developing country anymore in my eyes. Unfortunately politics doesn't work that way. China f.e. still gets development aid but has a greater industrial and financial power than any other state in the world.

[vilas 473]

China get financial aid ? gosh...

it probably works that way:

private big companies corrupted politicians (they pay them to start war to sell arms, they pay them to move industry and economical decisions, so also from our taxes - support big producers that moved to China and here in our countries made unemployment)

heads should be cut, also of bankers who made crisis

[Big Mac 19]

China get financial aid ? gosh...

it probably works that way:

private big companies corrupted politicians (they pay them to start war to sell arms, they pay them to move industry and economical decisions, so also from our taxes - support big producers that moved to China and here in our countries made unemployment)

heads should be cut, also of bankers who made crisis

That is one of the few things you and I agree on Vilas.

[vilas 473]

thats why people say/write about NWO, no longer democracy in meaning "will of people", cause there is "will of small very rich group, for which all pay taxes"

history of humanity begun from "king own people, they are slaves" to growing republic, communism where those owners get shot, to place where again some very very small group make decisions , that all we must pay for , cause they - like Obama said, get 500 000 000 dollars salary (it was as i remember about some banks causing crisis)

do they eat jewelery not food ? how to spend such hundreds milions they have (also owners of companies who took production to China, now from taxes US citizen build manufacture in China to be fired from job in own city ?

NK probably thinks "if we will make a lot of noise they will give us some dollars, of course we won't attack, they also need enemy to give public watching TV something more than internal economy issues"

i see from our TV so called "tematy zastępcze" (false smoke theme) , journalists say about something that NOT influences economy (state of country) to avoid saying about internal decisions of government"

thanx to saying "mr. K is stupid and make problems and mr. P said him to such cock" 24h/daily public argue of 2-3 politicians calling names each other, while crisis grows, taxes grows, hospitals do not have money but...

in Polish we say "w mętnej wodzie" - in dirty water you can catch better fish

maybe NK thinks this way and it is also good for west politicians

first bankers stole us, cheat us, than... bad mr. Kim Dzong Il on TV ?

half of our politicians are not constructive people, they can only accuse, call names, argue

without any "war risk" they would not exist, they would have to work hard in real job , not having milions for calling other puppet idiot in TV

[Colossus 2]

I don't know about you peeps, but this looks like a very unsuccessful counter-attack for ROK's artillery (or is it?).

Source: Bemil.chosun.com (KOR)

Question though. How accurate is today's or the ROK's counter-battery radar in pin-pointing OPFOR battery?

Edited December 3, 2010 by colossus

[spooky lynx 73]

That is a joint US/SK project. Projects like that are not uncommon.. If you actually look at the SK TO&E you'll see there are very few actual American toys. Thats not to say that American doesn't advise and lend support but even that is limited since for example we won't give SK or Japan our fly-by-wire software so they've come up with their own software.

I've looked at SK TO&E and what did I see? Nearly all aircrafts, both fixed wing and rotary are of US origin (some are modified by Korea but not significantly). The same goes to air defence systems and a significant part of armored units (even K1 tank looks like nothing that M1 Abrams adopted for Koreans as much as possible).

As I said before your country has done 10 times worse than mine so when you attack my country it's like the pot calling the kettle black.

I can prove that you are totally wrong in this but that should be another topic. You may start it or go private if you want to talk about this.

[Big Mac 19]

I've looked at SK TO&E and what did I see? Nearly all aircrafts, both fixed wing and rotary are of US origin (some are modified by Korea but not significantly). The same goes to air defence systems and a significant part of armored units (even K1 tank looks like nothing that M1 Abrams adopted for Koreans as much as possible).

Look more closely.

I can prove that you are totally wrong in this but that should be another topic. You may start it or go private if you want to talk about this.

And I can prove otherwise with sources that are widely accepted, so lets drop it.

[vilas 473]

in your countries you not see so called smoke-screen themes in TV to not say about internal (for example crisis) issues ?

cause in my country i see a lot of smoke-screen TV situations (and when i see at NK problem i treat it similar) like i told above "cause politicians have to hide something, so need to make big mess in tv to make people live problem of this mess, not see what's around in economy"

[Baff1 0]

I don't know about you peeps, but this looks like a very unsuccessful counter-attack for ROK's artillery (or is it?).

Question though. How accurate is today's or the ROK's counter-battery radar in pin-pointing OPFOR battery?

The South Koreans are not well famed for their military skills.

[Big Mac 19]

The South Koreans are not well famed for their military skills.

Research is key

The official U.S. military record on South Korean participation in the Vietnam war reads, "In summary, it appears that Korean operations in Vietnam were highly professional, well planned, and thoroughly executed; limited in size and scope, especially in view of assets made available; generally unilateral and within the Korean tactical area of responsibility; subject to domestic political considerations; and highly successful in terms of kill ratio."

Edited December 5, 2010 by Big Mac

[maturin 12]

I don't know about you peeps, but this looks like a very unsuccessful counter-attack for ROK's artillery (or is it?).

Well they're just Grads, right?

[Baff1 0]

Research is key

Being old enough to remember is the key.

[spooky lynx 73]

I don't know about you peeps, but this looks like a very unsuccessful counter-attack for ROK's artillery (or is it?).

Question though. How accurate is today's or the ROK's counter-battery radar in pin-pointing OPFOR battery?

Korean terrain itself makes difficult to spot enemy armor or artillery. Especially if it is mobile and crewed by well-trained personnel.

[Baff1 0]

Given that it has been there for 50+ years, it is likely to be well dug in too.

Drive it outside, fire it, drive it back in. That sort of thing.

Artillery did very little to the well dug in troops in their trench systems in WW1. Modern Israeli systems faired no better against Hezbollah.

The key to defeating North Korea is the same as it was last time. Manouvre. Just as in WW2, the Germans went round the French fortifications, in Korea the U.N. marine landings did too.

That's why they still train for it every year and that's why the NK are still scared of them. Thye can flatten Seoul, we can flatten Pyongyang. It's a stalemate.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Baff1

[-Snafu- 77]

Being old enough to remember is the key.

No, actually doing some reading is important, otherwise you will find yourself making sweeping statements that have little to no basis in reality.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Snafu

[Baff1 0]

It is better to read it at the time when there is a deluge of sources available than wait 30 years for the internet to be invented and then rely on selectively searched Google links to re-inforce your own prejudices, IMO.

To be honest with you the point of reading is completely removed if the only things you allow yourself to read are confirmations of what you already believe to be true. It defeats the object.

Better to talk to eyewitnesses in person.

Even better to have seen something for yourself.

Otherwise you end up making trolling comments that bely your age, bias and inexperience.

P.S., if you want basis in reality, just check the scores for this year.

North Korea... 1 warship with a full crew, 2-4 marines and a mashed up military base.

South Korea...nothing.

And why stop there. If you wish to read about about things before you dare give us your opinion... Why not explore all their track record in living history. Beaten by the Japs. Beaten by the Yanks. Beaten by the North Koreans. Beaten by the Vietnamese...

South Koreans have a useless army. You don't see the North Koreans having to wait for the Chinese army to show up before they feel strong enough to start posturing.

When one of the worlds richest most developed nations cannot defend itself against one of the worlds poorest... it is not because their army is so amazing.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Baff1

[-Snafu- 77]

I like to read a variety of sources instead of making stuff up like Cliff from Cheers. I also read reputable internet articles too and most of these are from Academic Journals since you can't get easily hard copies of them. Reputable internet sources are also good since other people can check them out easily.

The South Koreans are not well famed for their military skills.

The South Koreans acquitted themselves well in the Korean War. The initial advances less to do with their fighting ability and more to do with the fact that they simply weren't prepared. The South Koreans gained an excellent reputation during the Vietnam War (65-73). Furthermore, South Korean troops were deployed to Iraq. The South Korean military has actual recent operational experience unlike North Korea.

More on the ROK in Vietnam. They were well respected for their tenacity.

From 1965 the Republic of Korea deployed tens of thousands of ground troops to Vietnam. The Korean force level in Vietnam reached a high of 50,000 men in 1968, and the Koreans remained in Vietnam until the final US withdrawal in 1973. The Korean troops were respected for their tenacity, and US servicemen nicknamed them 'the RoKs'. As Army medical technician James Calbreath remembers, the Korean troops were believed to be ready to take on any military task, and to do so with enthusiasm:

...during Tet [1968] the VC had gotten into town, like they did into all towns, and had taken over the radio station and the TV station. And so they were broadcasting from the TV station and the ARVNs went in and they tried to get them out but they couldn't get them out. The US troops I don't think really ever tried to get them out. So they called in the Koreans, and the Koreans just drove a tank up in front of the building and just started firing and just literally blew the building to smithereens, went in, drug out the dead VC and hung them from a telephone pole. These were the people who were protecting us, "It sounds good to me." The Koreans were tough and crazy.

From: Voices from Vietnam Eye-witness accounts of the war, 1954-1975 by Richard Burks Verrone and Laura M. Calkins (2005). p. 107.

Even though South Vietnam was defeated it is irrelevant because victory in that war hinged upon the US. The ROK did not deploy enough troops to have a decisive effect. Quite clearly, they performed well.

P.S., if you want basis in reality, just check the scores for this year.

North Korea... 1 warship with a full crew, 2-4 marines and a mashed up military base.

South Korea...nothing.

These two small incidents do not provide enough information to analyse the performance of South Korea in a conventional war against the North.

And why stop there. If you wish to read about about things before you dare give us your opinion... Why not explore all their track record in living history. Beaten by the Japs. Beaten by the Yanks. Beaten by the North Koreans. Beaten by the Vietnamese...

South Koreans have a useless army. You don't see the North Koreans having to wait for the Chinese army to show up before they feel strong enough to start posturing.

When one of the worlds richest most developed nations cannot defend itself against one of the worlds poorest... it is not because their army is so amazing.

Another highly dubious sweeping statement.

As far as I am aware the ROK still exists so I am not sure how they were defeated by the DPRK. Also, you do realise your list goes beyond partition so you're lumping North and South Koreans as one and then separating them post-partition? So, what are you saying, all Korean are all bad fighters and all ways will be because of history? Honestly, your point makes little sense.

What matters:

a) Training

b) Doctrine

b) Equipment

c) Planning

d) Morale

e) Competent leadership

f) Logistics

etc.

Not historical track record. It may factor in some way (morale) but it is hardly decisive. Furthermore, you can't use events from the past, where warfare and Korea was completely different, and state that the modern ROK military is 'useless'.

The North Korean posturing has little to do with belief in some sort of military superiority over the ROK. It's posturing for primarily for political reasons.The DPRK obviously does not share your assessment of the South Korean military, otherwise, they would have tried to invade again. You also ignore the position of modern China on the DPRK.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Snafu

[Binkowski 25]

better be careful, wikileaks might intervene.