North Korea shells the South, South retaliates

[Maio 293]

I don't believe those goals were reached by tyranny and murder.

I belive they were reached by communal spirit and human endeavour.

A great unity of spirit and national hope.

The basic desire of all mankind to better themselves.

I believe that they were achieved, not becuase of tyranny, murder and crimes against normal civil population, but in spite of them.

I think it is a great shame that you are unable to see any deeper into the lives of these people than the negatives or that you believe their lives are all ruled by such things. They are a very proud people and they have great reason to be.

Baff , those people are starved by there own gov , brainwashed and constantly under pressure by the secret police .

They don't even allow sick people or elderly people in Pyongyang ...

How can you believe what you wrote .

I really do hope you are trolling ...

[Big Mac 19]

I really do hope you are trolling ...

The worldn't be the same if Baff quit trolling. They see me trollin..they hatin...

[ProfTournesol 956]

Do what?

Behaving like Chamberlain, the guy who was leading your country and who thought that Adolf was a gentleman.

I'm pretty sure you'll find all the German Nazi's have gone from your country now.

Thanks to Churchill, the guy who came after the previous guy and who thought the Adolf wasn't a nice guy, after all.

[Baff1 0]

If I told you that North Korea sank the island with SCUDs because they're evil bastards and you didn't believe me, you'd be close-mindedly discarding my alternate angle because my truth didn't reflect your own bias. Comfort zone, perspective etc.

It's not no man's land, it's a maritime border recognized by everyone except for North Korea, wanting to claim some good fishing waters as an afterthought.

Upon further reading of your posts I am lead to believe that you simply want to believe all the best about North Korea, biasedly dismissing western "propaganda" aimed to smear NK's name. It seems that the one who is biased is you.

It's a disputed border.

It's been disputed for the last 55 years.

If you said the NK sunk an Island with SCUDs because they are all evil bastards, of course I would not believe you.

Islands can't be sunk, and it is more likely that the NK are motivated by self defence, or greed or political opportunism than it is "evil".

When you talk about them in such terms your bias is very easy to dismiss out of hand.

This really isn't a battle between good and evil. No Angels and no devils slugging it out here.

[Big Mac 19]

Thanks to Churchill, the guy who came after the previous guy and who thought the Adolf wasn't a nice guy, after all.

*cough* Don't forget FDR *cough* Man I got a cough from hell here.

[Baff1 0]

Behaving like Chamberlain, the guy who was leading your country and who thought that Adolf was a gentleman.

Thanks to Churchill, the guy who came after the previous guy and who thought the Adolf wasn't a nice guy, after all.

I'm behaving like I was taught to behave by someone who fought the Germans in France.

Not Churchill and not Chamberlain.

A whole load of French people went along with the holocaust of the Jews. They were quite willing to believe in evil. They didn't need to examine the facts too closely either. They just went along with the concensus without ever giving it too much thought.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Baff1

[Tonci87 163]

Baff, i would really dare you to live one Month in NK. Only one Month! Go join their great unity of spirit and national hope. But don´t be suprised if they dont want you to leave the country after that. You really think the People in NK are happy? Why do you think their government doesn´t allow them to go out of the country? Because they surelly wouldn´t come back. Best example: The NK soccer Team at the last World finals! Half the Team ran away!

[Big Mac 19]

Islands can't be sunk, and it is more likely that the NK are motivated by self defence, or greed or political opportunism than it is "evil".

Didn't NK blow up a SK civilian airliner because the NKs didn't get to go to the olympics, but the SKs did? I guess that qualifys as self defense...like 9/11 was totally AQ defending itself...

[celery 8]

It's a disputed border.

It's been disputed for the last 55 years.

The North has disputed the maritime border only since 1973, that's 37 years ago. Only in 1999 did they actually reveal their own version of the border, that's 11 years ago. Nobody takes their one-sided claim seriously.

This really isn't a battle between good and evil. No Angels and no devils slugging it out here.

You have been the only one here talking about good and evil and dismissing their existence. Ironically, it seems that you are the one most inclined to categorize North Korea as good and South as the bad offender.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I'm behaving like I was taught to behave by someone who fought the Germans in France.

Not Churchill and not Chamberlain.

A whole load of French people went along with the holocaust of the Jews. They were quite willing to believe in evil. They didn't need to examine the facts too closely either.

Wow thanks God the guys "who taught you" wasn't admiring how the German Nazis were "a great unity of spirit and national hope"

I won't comment the other sentence as i'm a grown up.

[ShadowY 0]

You have been the only one here talking about good and evil and dismissing their existence. Ironically, it seems that you are the one most inclined to categorize North Korea as good and South as the bad offender.

nah he is not the only one....the rest simply don't reply in a thread with a weird and wrong topic name.

Inhere all western allies warcriminals of the last 70 years are gloryfied and when they are a bit to left they get burned :D

you people are to simple and needing a reallity check yourself :rolleyes:

Edited November 26, 2010 by ShadowY

[KEVINMGXP 20]

I have a comment :coop: play Arma II :dancehead: the country that captures the most flags can have the iseland

[maturin 12]

I don't belive in comic strips of good guys vs bad guys.

Just fairytales, apparently.

North Korea makes Stalinist Russia (a place with actual accomplishments benefiting more than 1% of the population) look like utopia.

Oh, they survived that famine. It didn't kill them all. Impressive.

Let's go be amazed by China's synchronized events instead. No one starved for want of the food aid that went to the military to support their games.

That said, announcing new wargames now sounds like a really fucking stupid idea.

[celery 8]

North Korea makes Stalinist Russia (a place with actual accomplishments benefiting more than 1% of the population) look like utopia.

I think it's descriptive that around 50s to 70s, Chinese people were defecting to the Soviet Union, and North Koreans tried (and still try) to defect to China.

[Baff1 0]

Baff, i would really dare you to live one Month in NK. Only one Month! Go join their great unity of spirit and national hope. But don´t be suprised if they dont want you to leave the country after that. You really think the People in NK are happy? Why do you think their government doesn´t allow them to go out of the country? Because they surelly wouldn´t come back. Best example: The NK soccer Team at the last World finals! Half the Team ran away!

While I don't want to live in the Nk for a whole month, (I wouldn't mind visiting for mass games 1 time before I die...) I have seen no sign that the NK people are all unhappy any more than I see any sign of Masai Peasant farmers being unhappy.

They all look distinctly happy. One big advert for "money can't buy happiness".

There was a rather good film about the NK football team that almost won the world cup. "The Game of Their Lives".

It's by the same guy who made "A State of Mind".

As I understand it only trusted citizens are allowed out of the country.

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------

Just fairytales, apparently.

North Korea makes Stalinist Russia (a place with actual accomplishments benefiting more than 1% of the population) look like utopia.

Oh, they survived that famine. It didn't kill them all. Impressive.

Let's go be amazed by China's synchronized events instead. No one starved for want of the food aid that went to the military to support their games.

That said, announcing new wargames now sounds like a really fucking stupid idea.

I'm sorry no one in China ever starved for food?

Of course they did, and in Russia.

And Ethiopia and any number of other places over the years.

You know what?

In WW2 everyone in my country came close to starving to support our military.

Not having any food doesn't make a person evil in my eyes.

Chinese synchronized events are not as big as Koreas'. NK's are the biggest the world has ever seen.

It's really a marvel.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Baff1

[maturin 12]

I think it's descriptive that around 50s to 70s, Chinese people were defecting to the Soviet Union.

It's not a good analogue. Chinese socialism was almost always more humane than Soviet socialism. Imagine, collectivization that rural people actually supported and didn't involve massive famines and massacres.

North Korea is sort of like Maoist China in the basket case year that was the Great Leap Forward, only drawn out over half a century.

[Baff1 0]

Wow thanks God the guys "who taught you" wasn't admiring how the German Nazis were "a great unity of spirit and national hope"

[/Quote]

Actually, they were.

They might not have liked them, but they still admired and respected them for their achievements. Not to mention courage, innovation and battle prowess.

.

---------- Post added at 06:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 PM ----------

It's not a good analogue. Chinese socialism was almost always more humane than Soviet socialism. Imagine, collectivization that rural people actually supported and didn't involve massive famines and massacres.

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

Mao Killed about 40 million matey.

Tianamen Square was rather a famous chinese massacre in my lifetime.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Baff1

[-Snafu- 77]

Baff1, for 4 years we have had to put with your posts. They are odd, poorly structured, light on facts and evidence and often make little sense.

Do what that well known poster of the WW2 soldier holding the canteen is asking. You will be doing humanity a favour.

EDIT

OK, I was an arsehole earlier. My apologies.

There was too much opinion and not enough facts. A war would not be in the interest of SK. Although a conventional conflict might not last long and it would be a victory for the US and SK it would costs millions in lives and millions in damage.

I don't understand how one can say there is no moral side to this. Some conflicts don't have moral sides, some do. This is one of them. The NK leadership is willing to sacrifice some of its population in order to maintain its power. The dictatorship, camps and starvation gives a clear moral side to this. While SK does not have a squeaky clean past it is now a functioning and stable representative democracy.

There were other dubious claims with the WW2 areas presented in this thread but I leave it since it's OT.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Snafu

[KEVINMGXP 20]

Ok serious post for once :D

NK are just showing mussels as they see fit, fist off all it will devestating to both sides as well on destruction as economicly, not only for them but also for a lot of our country's ...

as for Baff1

no info gows in NK lesser info comes out :rolleyes: tell me how can you tell here to us, in any way! that those people are happy!? how is it possible that you can say, to look trough there eyes!!! you do'nt even have the slightest id what they think or even how they think!! And how is it that SK is the bad guy or even NK? or evil or what ever trach talk you put here already??? Now sorry buddy but so far nothing said out your mounth makes any sence for me!

NK is already in despute for the last 56 years and so is SK the US are there allies but even if they werent that would not change anything they would still have a conflict, this is global my friend any war any where will inflict on any country economical problems arround them and beyound them ....

i'm pretty sure NK and SK and even obama is shitting there pants atm! no one wants to go in a war with NK or anyone else ... Irak is not ended yet Pakistan campaign is still in the hots do you think that anyone can offort it to go in war with NK while the whole world is in financial desaster??? before SK/US gows in war with NK they will deplete every opertunety to talk talk talk and talk again because we CAN't offort it and with we i mean the WORLD ...

If this escalates in any way we all suffer in the end bear that in mind, what i ment to say is there is no right side or a wrong side just hope that this does not go any further then it already is, Im paying enough taxes already so stop the uther bullshit to blast them with nukes or what ever bombs in our existance. It Costs Money to build them and to put them to the end user and there is no tax money enough to cover it ...

Edited November 26, 2010 by KBourne

[Big Mac 19]

Baff1, for 4 years we have had to put with your posts. They are odd, poorly structured, light on facts and evidence and often make little sense.

Do what that well known poster of the WW2 soldier holding the canteen is asking. You will be doing humanity a favour.

This one?

If so, then I agree.

[Zipper5 74]

Now now, folks, please try to keep things... Decent.

[h - 169]

nNczU5Lsvp4

[Deadfast 43]

Baff, you are delusional if you really think the citizens of North Korea would choose to come back given the chance to spend a month abroad.

[maturin 12]

Mao Killed about 40 million matey.

40 million (middling high estimate) starved. They weren't killed by the Party. The famine wasn't intentional, it wasn't foreseen, and most importantly by the time the situation became clear, it was too late because of false production reports at every level of government.

Stalin physically seized grain stores, and used hunger as a tool of reprisal.

And I thought we were ignoring pesky little famines in order to wax poetic about the beauty of collective spirit and harmonious personality cult societies?

You could also cite the cultural revolution for incidences of massive violence, but like the Great Leap Forward, those killings were only indirectly related to the Party. It was spontaneous violence resulting from exhortations by Mao as the society and government fell apart.

Tianamen Square was rather a famous chinese massacre in my lifetime.

Justly famous, but a tiny body count, relatively speaking.

And given the context of massacre, it was something that any mildly authoritarian regime would have done. And it was during the reform period, meaning that it didn't have much to do with socialism, which was what I was talking about. The USSR would have slaughtered everyone the instant they set foot on the streets, but the Chinese held nationally televised debates with the student leaders, and allowed the protests to continue for months. It was only after negotiation broke down that hardliners gained the upper hand and declared martial law.

And really, you would have to be completely brainless to see that the Nazis weren't peddling unity but unity through exclusion. It was the most primitive, mystical tribalism the world has ever seen, filtered through pseudo-science and other eminently civilized bullshit.

Edited November 26, 2010 by maturin

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

CHINA TELLS AMERICA: Turn Around The USS George Washington

China has warned against military activity near its coastline ahead of U.S.-Korea naval exercises, according to Reuters.

China's Foreign Ministry said in an online posting that naval exercises risks starting a war: "We oppose any military act by any party conducted in China's exclusive economic zone without approval."

...

China wants peace. The only problem with Pax China is that it includes little protection for South Korea against the next surprise attack from Pyongyang

Baff1 is delusional but he has a point... World sat on it's collective ass as Hitler annexed Sudetenland with a simple stroke of British, French, German pens on a piece of paper. It was 'peace in our time' for the British and 'peace and/or security by any means' for the French. Germans rolled over the rest of Czechoslovakia as it's, now former allies stood idly by - Munich betrayal.

Ten years ago, I'd side with the vast majority of sheeple and 'hate' NK just as they do for the inhumanity of the regime, violation of the most basic human rights, genocide of their own people, even.

But on the other hand, I've seen the World and know what it is capable of. World being the Western nations & co -- Iraq was 'liberated' of it's oil, Afganistan is being 'liberated' for the prospect of securing a future oil and gas pipeline, along with other natural resources. Yet, somehow nobody gave a shit about the people of North Korea, or China for over 30 years. Do ask yourselves, "why?"

Now, a carrier (CSG?) is heading to the peninsula. That's a major card in US playbook, just like Pearl Harbour, Gulf of Tonkin incident were.

Point being, the US, UN, or West for that matter, have shown not to be morally superior in any respect with regards to other Nations or common sense, thus nullifying any authority it might have had in the past in the eyes of domestic citizens and the World as a whole.

League of Nations, part deux.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Iroquois Pliskin