Over 90,000 US Military Records Leaked

[Crunchie 10]

Have been reading and watching the news today regarding the leak of logs to certain news agencies and onto Wikileaks itself. Makes for horrific and thought-provoking reading showing that contrary to what me might like to think and what the military and governments like us to believe war is still not an exact science and precision fighting/bombing is still a myth. I am appalled by the stories of blue on blue and blue on white catastrophes. Almost feel I should put Arma aside for a while.

Just shows those bugs/idiosyncracies withing the game really DO make it more realistic. Unfortunately...

Edited July 26, 2010 by Crunchie

[slatts 1978]

first off wrong section

however

i am surprised at how every is re-acting to what is in these files

i mean...cmon its clear the war is a stalemate

Blue on blue and blue on civs has happened

so why is every one so shocked to find this out?

[JdB 151]

Blue on blue and blue on civs has happened

so why is every one so shocked to find this out?

As it has been ever since one caveman clubbed his neighbor to death with a stone.

War has been absent from Western-European soil for more than a generation, so people have no idea of what a war is, and expect it to be like Desert Storm, short and sweet. Make people look at images from the Kuwait City - Basra highway after 100 hours of bombardment, and everyone would know that there is no such thing as a modern war.

Edited July 26, 2010 by JdB

[pre-Vet 10]

I don't understand why all the media freak out about everything that comes from wikileaks, most of the time its old news or not even news at all.

and the other thing I dont understand is that its all okay now to publish secret papers endangering hundreds of lives. (exposing SOP's)

like its cool to hate the goverment or something....

[Thunderbird 0]

I don't understand why all the media freak out about everything that comes from wikileaks, most of the time its old news or not even news at all.

and the other thing I dont understand is that its all okay now to publish secret papers endangering hundreds of lives. (exposing SOP's)

like its cool to hate the goverment or something....

Not that old. They concern a conflict which is still not finished.

Furthermore, there is nothing about "hating the government" or whatever else in these regards. But we all know that all this world's governments aren't the best example of transparence. They show us what they want, when they want and by filtering everything. It doesn't matter how "Transparent" they claim themselves to be. The information they provide you is only intended to reach a certain objective. In other words, you will know what they would want you to know.

I'm not saying they want to misinform you but the puzzled part of information you will get will somehow make you get a specific opinion. This opinion will unfortunately not be equal to the real situation in question. Therefore, you will get an "erroneous" opinion.

Wikileaks is a platform that somewhat goes against this principle. Thanks to this website, I can't hide the fact I learned a lot of things that I was almost sure about. This website allowed me to confirm some of my suspicions about those who lead us.

Obviously, I'm not trying to make our governements look bad in a certain light. But I'm pointing out an issue which should be fixed and which will, sadly, never be fixed.

Regards,

TB

Edited July 26, 2010 by Thunderbird

[LJF 0]

Not that old. They concern a conflict which is still not finished.

Furthermore, there is nothing about "hating the government" or whatever else in these regards. But we all know that all this world's governments aren't the best example of transparence. They show us what they want, when they want and by filtering everything. It doesn't matter how "Transparent" they claim themselves to be. The information they provide you is only intended to reach a certain objective. In other words, you will know what they would want you to know.

I'm not saying they want to misinform you but the puzzled part of information you will get will somehow make you get a specific opinion. This opinion will unfortunately not be equal to the real situation in question. Therefore, you will get an "erroneous" opinion.

Wikileaks is a platform that somewhat goes against this principle. Thanks to this website, I can't hide the fact I learned a lot of things that I was almost sure about. This website allowed me to confirm some of my suspicions about those who lead us.

Obviously, I'm not trying to make our governements look bad in a certain light. But I'm pointing out an issue which should be fixed and which will, sadly, never be fixed.

Regards,

TB

Very true.

* * * * *

However, regardless of whether or not they only released the "safe" stuff, the information could be potentially dangerous to troops on the ground - it could easily be used by the Taliban to find the most effective method of attacking and minimizing their own losses.

[Baff1 0]

"Courageous Restraint", oh dear, that sounds like a stupid tactic made up by some politicians...

What exactly is that tactic?

It's the ROE the brits have been using for many years.

In Iraq it meant that the soldiers were not authorised to return fire without a direct order to do so.

The officers job was to identify the targets.

The same in Northern Ireland.

On the propaganda side you will hear numerous stories of how the Taliban etc kill women and children and blah blah blah.

And this makes them an easy enemy to hate. Makes us feel all warm and justified inside about our war with them.

The only problem is we kill far more women and children than they do. Which makes them all justified and righteous about killing us.

Which makes 20 year old university students all righteous and justified about making homemade bombs and leaving them on trains in London.

So either our soldiers are heroes, willing to put themselves in harms way to protect us and the people of the countries they are policing.....

Or they are just mindless stormtroopers placing the importance of their own lives above others.

We have a volunteer army. They don't have to do what they do, I for one and extremely proud of the way they operate.

It's perhaps difficult to accept that losing one soldier today, by not freely returning fire, saves the lives of other soldiers (and civilians back home) tomorrow. But there you are.

I sympathise with the concept of force protection. I sympathise with the concept that one British life is of more importance than one Afghan life, but ultimately they have a job to do.

It is utterly pointless for them to kill one Taliban if every time they do so they create 3 more.

Without "courageous restraint" there is simply no point of them being deployed at all. Their presence would be counterprodcutive to the war effort and they would be increasing the danger British citizens are being placed in at home.

Ultimately despite their "heroic" effort I feel this is something they are doing anyway. But I expect them to at least try to win if they are going to be there at all.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Baff1

[Takko 10]

I sympathise with the concept that one British life is of more importance than one Afghan life

After that I stopped reading.

[Baff1 0]

I value my people more than I value yours.

I think anyone who doesn't is immoral.

[Thunderbird 0]

These informations will in fact, serve certain "bad intentioned people". I would not directly aim at the Taliban first. Not because the taliban are just a bunch of countrymen and farmers, living in lost tribal regions and are briefly equipped (In fact, this is not only a stereotypical view but it is also very untrue). But in my judgement, these informations, even if a large part of them is technically and potentially usuable. They would require some time before being completely exploited. And even, if they are exploited intelligently, they would truthfully not serve that much in a direct way on the ground during firefights.

Some Pak/Afghan Mujahideens and Talibans use hidden forums and social groups to share their content and informations. And if they would want to know how to get ride of a Bradely. All they have to do is to bring and sit their "english speaking people" in front of a comp connected to the net and get a look at some public amateurish military websites. They would know everything they would want on the vehicle. Including its weak points and equipments. Therefore, with no real need to be that smart, they would know that the vehicle has a thermal view system (FLIR) and they would not mess with it. So, they will just set up an IED, wait for it to come up and then take it out.

If you get a look at some videos, you will notice that when an Apache appears in the sky. They all know that it's time to hide'n disappear. Seems to not to be the case for a Chinook, a Kiowa or a Blackhawk.

(Maybe the Apache looks more threatening, heh).

All in all, Of course, divulging such confidential information could be harmful, but it does, in fact, only harm the main actors of the issues in question.

Regards,

TB

Edited July 27, 2010 by Thunderbird

[Big Mac 19]

I value my people more than I value yours.

I think anyone who doesn't is immoral.

So just because they're not British that makes them less human? Sounds a bit racist..

[pre-Vet 10]

all really nice about transparancy and the goverment being honerst but people have to accept the fact they cant know everything they want anytime.

and I understand people have problems with this conflict but this is not the way to fight it, far from it in fact! this only crushes morale and gives the enemy the upperhand in intell gathering. remember its not only low-tech afghan taliban who is fighting against the coalition, people from all over the world come to fight for the islam or the drug money sometimes NV capable and veterans of many other wars.

we are fighting a war, cant imagine people acting like this when the war in korea was fought... problably would be trailed for treason.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Hehe... From one of the reports...

031542ZAUG09, OCC-P KDZ REPORTED 2X FUEL TRUCKS WERE STOLEN BY UNK NUMBER OF INS.

Guess what mission I'm thinking about now? :)

[Baff1 0]

So just because they're not British that makes them less human? Sounds a bit racist..

It makes them less important humans to me.

And yes it is racist. Although I don't believe it to be especially more racist than anyone else. My wife is not British. Her life is worth more to me than most Brits'.

Quite simply the lives of my family members are more important to me than the lives of all others. I place a higher value on them. I would sacrifice any and all other human lives for them.

After that I value my friends and after that my countrymen and then my nations allies etc. All of these lives are more important to me than the lives of complete strangers, than the lives of people who are not co-operating with me towards my personal life goals.

I do not place the worth of all human life as equal. I do not truely believe it moral to do so.

Anyone who is unable to place his own family first strikes me as as inhuman as a human can get.

Is all human life equal?

Would you kill two people to save the life of one of your children? I believe if you think the answer is no, you lack humanity.

It's called tribalism. It's a completely normal human behavioural charisteristic. I'm British. I bat for my own team.

---------- Post added at 02:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:32 AM ----------

All in all, Of course, divulging such confidential information could be harmful, but it does, in fact, only harm the main actors of the issues in question.

Regards,

TB

Here I disagree.

I think the release of information on the killing of innocents etc is harmful in another way than directly against the soldiers deployed.

This information motivates homegrown terrorism/5th columnism in the nations allied or responsable. This is the kind of thing that incites young minds to justify violence.

Now out in Afghanistan, all the young minds already know about this stuff and those that don't, don't, (I imagine), get their news from western sources anyway.

But back in Blighty over in the U.S. in France, Germany and Canada etc... there will be some young angry muslim fellows saying "see, I told you how evil they are". For whom this will be yet more ammunition to provoke their righteous indignation. Further to this it will allow them to equate and justify the killings of innocent civilians with the killings of more innocent civilians.

I think this sort of stuff has the ability to harm a whole lot more than the actual actors involved in the events.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Baff1

[Big Mac 19]

It makes them less important humans to me.

And yes it is racist. Although I don't believe it to be especially more racist than anyone else. My wife is not British. Her life is worth more to me than most Brits'.

Quite simply the lives of my family members are more important to me than the lives of all others. I place a higher value on them. I would sacrifice any and all other human lives for them.

After that I value my friends and after that my countrymen and then my nations allies etc. All of these lives are more important to me than the lives of complete strangers, than the lives of people who are not co-operating with me towards my personal life goals.

I do not place the worth of all human life as equal. I do not truely believe it moral to do so.

Anyone who is unable to place his own family first strikes me as as inhuman as a human can get.

Is all human life equal?

Would you kill two people to save the life of one of your children? I believe if you think the answer is no, you lack humanity.

It's called tribalism. It's a completely normal human behavioural charisteristic. I'm British. I bat for my own team.

Most people consider all everybody equally human and equally deserving of basic human rights, just because someone would kill to protect their children does not mean that each human life is equal and to suggest otherwise is perverse and idiotic. It sounds to me like you're trying to excuse and justify your racist beliefs and failing epically. So Prydain pretty much had it right in his assessment of you.

---------- Post added at 10:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 PM ----------

But back in Blighty over in the U.S. in France, Germany and Canada etc... there will be some young angry muslim fellows saying "see, I told you how evil they are". For whom this will be yet more ammunition to provoke their righteous indignation. Further to this it will allow them to equate and justify the killings of innocent civilians with the killings of more innocent civilians.

They seem to get all their justifcation from their Imams and from certain texts in the Qu'ron. I don't see how this could make it much worse than it already is.. Edited July 27, 2010 by Big Mac

[Guest]

There are no correct sides to the war. But the Taliban are very, very clever in the way that they engage us, and it's their own fault that civilians are getting killed. They then use their own media to hype up how we are killing innocent people, to generate hate towards us.

The matter of fact is, they are the ones who dress like civilians, they are the ones who hide in civilian towns, they are the ones who plant IED's on their own people.

So, we end up going in there, scared, not knowing who to shoot, not having a clue who is the enemy until they pick a gun up, hated by many locals because of the way they are misled, and we end up killing just as many civilians, without even knowing it.

The war, like every single war that ever existed, is political. And politics is the only thing that will win a war. And that's why the whole thing is a total stalemate.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Guest

[Baff1 0]

Most people consider all everybody equally human and equally deserving of basic human rights, just because someone would kill to protect their children does not mean that each human life is equal and to suggest otherwise is perverse and idiotic. It sounds to me like you're trying to excuse and justify your racist beliefs and failing epically. So Prydain pretty much had it right in his assessment of you.

---------- Post added at 10:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 PM ----------

They seem to get all their justifcation from their Imams and from certain texts in the Qu'ron. I don't see how this could make it much worse than it already is..

If you say that each human life is equal then why would you kill more than one to save your children. Unless you didn't truely believe this of course.

Most people would agree that it is politically correct to consider all men to be equal, but almost no one would actually practise this. It is a conceit nothing more.

How many starving africans could have lived if you just ate half as much as you do every day and sent the rest to them? If you think all life is equal, why do you daily place your own life so far above the lives of others?

If all human life is equal then do we judge who is more right and wrong in war by the numbers they have killed? This is quite simply a stupid way to measure things.

I suggest you start talking to the families of American servicemen and see if they think Afghan lives are worth more than the lives of their husbands fathers and sons.

Most people do not think this.

I suggest you talk to the actual soldiers themselves and see how amused they are about not being allowed to fire back. Do they think their lives and the lives of their compatriots are only of equal importance to the Afghans lives. Of course they bloody don't. LMAO how could they and still kill people for a living?

Some self righteous dicks might. If it's a slagging match your after however, this thread will just be locked.

We have plenty of British Imams. Our islamic terrorists didn't come from Afghanistan. They were born and raised here. Just as I have foreign family and split national loyalties, so do they. When we bomb Afghans their relatives here are justifiably angry.

They always had Imams and Qu'rans before... they read these books and listened to these preachers peacefully their whole lives...and yet they only attacked us after we invaded Afghanistan and (more specifically) Iraq. And make no mistake they left videos explaining to us exactly what motivated them.

This is of course, to be expected and we knew full well that would be the result when we joined this war.

It's also part of the reason why countries with a larger porportion of Islamics in their population such as France, did not get involved in the invasion of Iraq.

This is called a fifth column. When an element in your population is sympathetic to you enemies and can be expected to rise up against you in the event of war.

To put it in an American perspective for you... if America declared war on Mexico some of the people living in America would side with Mexico. At the risk of fueling your anti-racist indignation...some hispanic people. Lol! Different races do exist you know.

This is quite normal in wars. It's the same reason Japanese people living in America and their families were interned in WW2.

We've got quite a few of our muslims under house arrest ourselves.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Baff1

[Big Mac 19]

If you say that each human life is equal then why would you kill more than one to save your children. Unless you didn't truely believe this of course.

Most people would agree that it is politically correct to consider all men to be equal, but almost no one would actually practise this. It is a conceit nothing more.

If all human life is equal then do we judge who is more right and wrong in war by the numbers they have killed? This is quite simply a stupid way to measure things.

I suggest you start talking to the families of American servicemen and see if they think Afghan lives are worth more than the lives of their husbands fathers and sons.

Most people do not think this.

I suggest you talk to the actual soldiers themselves and see how amused they are about not being allowed to fire back. Do they think their lives and the lives of their compatriots are only of equal importance to the Afghans lives. Of course they bloody don't.

Some self righteous dicks might. If it's a slagging match your after however, this thread will just be locked.

Just because I personally believe everyone to be equally human doesn't mean I wouldn't think twice to protect my child. It means that unlike you I don't consider the fact that I'm white and hail from a western country to mean that I'm somehow superior to them. You can still consider everyone equal and protect yourself and those close to you. If by slagging match you mean calling you out on your racist beliefs then you brought that on yourself. Also don't lecture me on the cost of military families in this war. If I need to talk to the someone who has family serving over there I only need to talk to myself. I have a brother serving there right now and he is in agreement with me. As I said before, perverse and idiotic. Edited July 27, 2010 by Big Mac

[Baff1 0]

I don't consider myself to be superior to them at all. I consider myself to be allied with my own side.

Clearly you consider yourself to be superior to me.

I'll lecture you about the cost to military familes.

You clearly need it about as much as I need a lecture on racism.

Since you think this is about racism and feeling superior, lets discuss your brother. How many Afghans is his life worth?

If he is in fight to death versus an Afghan would you prefer that he was to be one the one who survived?

Or are their lives and rights both of equal value you?

These are just sick dilemmas that no one likes to address. Thats why we all prefer to discuss things in terms of all life is equal. But it isn't.

Now please try and read and understand my words as I intend them. I said equal. Not inferior and superior. Of equal personal importance.

I don't donate all my money to save my fellow hungry man. A starving man in Africa isn't morally inferior to me, he doesn't have any less "right" to live. But he isn't equally important to me. I don't care about him because I am too busy caring about those that I love and for that matter too busy being selfish.

And I love my nations soldiers more than I love the Afghan people. Sorry but that's how it is. I even love your brother more than I love them. Even you.

And I love all the Germans and the French and the Canadians more than I love them. All the Russians the Turkish and the Japanese etc etc etc. And it is racist to some degree I accept. But not to any degree that I feel ashamed about.

Nor do I feel that it displays a level or racism worthy of personal abuse. Clearly you feel differently.

If you value your brothers life before the lives of any Afghan, does that make you a racist? If I do also, does that make me a racist?

All life isn't equal. That is only a political ideal.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Baff1

[Big Mac 19]

I don't consider myself to be superior to them at all. I consider myself to be allied with my own side.

Clearly you consider yourself to be superior to me.

I consider myself superior to anyone with a narrow mind, you're not the only one.

Since you think this is about racism and feeling superior, lets discuss your brother. How many Afghans is his life worth.

If an airstrike had to be called on a school to save him would you do it?

Not if it meant killing a school of children. I love my brother yes, but neither he nor I would want to have someone or worse yet have to kill a school full of children to save our lives. I bet you would kill a school full of children to save one british soldier wouldn't you? If that is so then everything that one british soldier has fought for is meaningless.

These are just sick dilemmas that no one likes to address. Thats why we all prefer to discuss things in terms of all life is equal. But it isn't.

Now please try and read and understand my words as I intend them. I said equal .Not inferior and superior. Equal.

The way you phrase your words implies that you think you're better than them..

And I love all the Germans and the French and the Canadians more than I love them. All the Russians the Turkish and the Japanese etc etc etc. And it is racist to some degree I accept. But not to any degree that I feel ashamed about.

Any degree of racism is something to be ashamed of.. Edited July 27, 2010 by Big Mac

[Baff1 0]

I think the feelings of superiority your attributing to my comments are your own.

My problems with killing a school full of children to save a British soldier aside from the obvious moral ones are more rooted in the strategics. And this is why I approve of the tactics of courageous restraint.

I understand why schools do get bombed. By Brits by Yanks and by Israelis' etc. And I have a lot of sympathy for those people who are involved in those kinds of incidents.

As someone who broadly supports my nations wars I understand that I am placing my friends in circumstances where they must deal with moral dilemmas I am not willing to or find abhorrant. Neither do I feel I am best placed here in my comfortable home to make those kinds of calls.

That it is in the very nature of the circumstances we place them in that these events will take place.

As I see it, I either have the balls to face up to this or I shouldn't be supporting the wars I support.

I take pride in the willingness and professionality of my nations soldiers to place themselves in harms way.

The only shame I feel is in not valuing their individual lives above those of the Afghans more than I do.

When I look at how the U.S. does it, (or heavens forbid, the Israeli's), and the level of force protection they use, while I am at once horrified by it and the comparatively wanton loss of life this creates, even though I think this is a bad tactic, even though I think it places us all at a greater risk and is tactic more likely to lose our wars than it is win them... I cannot help but feel our troops deserve the same level commitment to their saftey. The same value placed on their lives. It's not an easy pill to swallow.

But in the example of bombing a school to save the lives of our troops, quite aside from the moral dilemmas, there is a strategic one.

If you do, you will motivate and provoke an army of killers that were not motivated before. Take Beslan perhaps as an example of the kind of response I expect. Rightoeus fury and the need for revenge.

You will fuel the anti-western sentiment that empowers people to bomb our children too. Create a moral equivalence that will be meted back out against us sooner or later. You will provide an even deadlier climate in which for our troops to operate and a rallying call for fifth columnists to strike our own children back home.

So in this case, I am ashamed to say that I would rather your brother died. This of course is easy for me to say as it's A) not my brother and B) he isn't dead.

Should it be my brother and should he be dead, this would be very different dilemma for me. Perhaps I wouldn't feel this way.

With regards to my own troops... If it was down to me, they wouldn't even be there.

There wouldn't be any increased risk to them or any increased risks of retaliatory terrorist attacks back here at all.

Afghanistan isn't worth it.

Besides it's probably too late. We have bombed so many schools and whatever there already that the Taliban are multiplying faster than we can possibly kill them.

P.S. I don't agree that any degree of racism is to be ashamed of. Everybody has one. It's like wanking. We all do it.

As long as you are able to socially moderate your behaviour there is no problem.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Baff1

[bascule42 10]

Ah well...it's nice to have home comfort morals. Reading some of the reports, in particular the Blue on Green, (Coalition forces & Afghan Local forces), it gives a glimpse, with no media bollox, of what a complete fuck up coalition troops are trying to deal with. Some of the Green on Green are even better.

A report of UK forces coming under fire from the Afghan National Police.

TF Aegis reported TIC 56 km NW of FOB Robinson. At 0105Z, TF Aegis reported receiving small arms fire while on a convoy. 1x UK vehicle rolled over but there were no injuries. UK forces pulled back from contact and were forced to destroy the vehicle using 3x Milan AT missiles because the vehicle was being overrun. The force was still receiving small arms fire from approximately 2 km away. At 0142Z, the unit pulled back 1500 m from the TIC site to high ground and split up. The forward element was at grid 41S PR 358836 with 4x vehicles. The second element was located at grid 41S PR 36058203 with 5x vehicles over watching the forward element. CAS was requested and 2x A-10s were dispatched in support of the contact. At 0312Z TF Aegis reported receiving info from LKG PRT that ANP, (Afghan National Police), forces were located at grid 41S PR 3800586007, which was 3 km from UK forces position. TF Aegis reported the TIC was between UK forces and ANP. UK forces commander requested that the ANP Chief meet with him at his position, and believed that there was still a hostile intent. UK commander would not go to the district center for the meeting as the governer requested. UK commander believed from intel that IEDs were being placed around their position. The District Chief was moving in a white truck with District Chief written on the side while flying a white flag en route to UK position. TF Aegis reported 12x ANP WIA and 1x KIA. Update: At 0430Z TF Aegis reported UK Commander and the District Chief met and discussed the incident. UK commander indicated that the ANP fired on them first, the District Chief replied that he thought the UK forces were actually Taliban advancing on them. Both forces were doing a RECCE of the destroyed UK vehicle site. District Chief previously informed the LNs to place IED''s in front of coalition vehicle site. No UK injuries were reported. The vehicle that was destroyed by missiles was taken back to Gereshk.

A local governors bodyguards have a row with Afghan Police...and start shooting.

TF Phoenix reported a green on green engagement 8km W of Kabul. At 13337Z, TF Phoenix reported that the governor of Wardaks body guards stopped at an ANA, (Afghan National Army) check point and an argument ensued. The body guards engaged the ANA, and the ANA returned fire. The body guards captured one ANA soldier. No casualties were reported, and the ANA soldier was released. At this time it is unknown whether the Wardak governor was present for the incident.

War is rightly unpopular, people get killed. People who arn't part of the war get killed. The French have the best way of describing this. Cest le Guerre. But if you take the time to look through some of these reports, and not jump straight into the blue on white reports, then you'll see a picture building up that gives us people at home, with all our opinions and morals, a small glimpse of the kind of bollocks that is daily life in Afghanistan. And I don't think the kind of crap in therse two reports is something that started since the invasion.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Bascule42

[pre-Vet 10]

maybe no 100% correct sides of the war but:

when did the taliban change from hand cutting, women stoning, child raping orginization who would hang or shoot every one who had other thoughts about just about anything...

...to the poor farmers of afghanistan trying to make a living against the agressive coalition?

I think the day the invasion was complete, the media immediately chose the side of the new underdog.

most IED strikes are on civilians, often the locals clean up the mess themselfs and nothing is reported to ISAF. this is not a land where shooting is something special. after years of civil war and opression from the taliban most young men cant remember a day without agression, resulting in civilians who dont run away when the shooting begins, sometimes they even come looking. talk about getting in harms way.

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 PM ----------

oh, make another threath to talk about ethics?

Edited July 27, 2010 by pre-Vet

[celery 8]

After that I stopped reading.

So just because they're not British that makes them less human? Sounds a bit racist..

Food for thought:

http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html

Edited July 27, 2010 by Placebo

[Placebo 28]

Quoting a post that the originator is clearly going to receive an infraction for is not a particular smart thing to do and just creates extra work, report it, don't quote it.