APPEAL TO ADDONMAKERScan't we do some kind o

few people wrote to me about this theme, also concerning OFP

to people who make addons:

there is very big mess with OFP addons, weapons from different mods, addonmakers cannot cooperate because one weapon is deadly accurate and other no - to make AI fire often

one tank is very strong, other is weak

one tank has super powerfull cannon, other normal

for example : i remember situation when one mod released tank Sherman and it was such strong that Tiger from other mod had no chance with it

in real life Tiger was much stronger that Sherman and some stronger than T34 but different addonmakers were giving armor nonsense values (T34 was stronger than BIS T55)

now we started addonmaking to new game, we don't have mess yet

I REPEAT YET

people, let's do balanced weapons, armor values,

can't we make some kind of agreement ?

i don't know BIS values of accuracy or more accuracy (in OFP accuracy of AK, M16 [0.0002] were 12 times better than in ARMA AK74 [now 0.0025] )

in my addons there are 2 configs (optionally) with BIS ammo values and optionally some 30% more accurate weapons with little stronger bullets, this is just proposal

BIS ARMA values of accuracy are low, maybe we should make weapon a little more accurate ?

now AK74 has in single mode 0.0025, M16 0.0015

weapons in burst have circa 0.005

maybe good values should be 0.0015 for all guns ?

0.003 for bursts ?

i am just making suggestion to discuss, but i think it is important, so ?

for player it is problem to play with different addons, because one gun kills at 250 meters by one shot, another same class gun hits by 2 shots and to aim and hit for 200 meters player must fire 4-6 times

one tank shoots one and kills stronger tank (stronger in real life) but this stronger tank cannot kill weaker

can we do such agreement, cooperation to balance or we f*** this mess situation like in OFP ?

so ?

EDIT: i decided to give table wih values in the first post to avoid mess in this topic:

Max AI range:

> pistols - 25-50 meters, also Sa61 skorpion, Micro Uzi

> submachineguns like UZI, 50-100 meters

> submachineguns on stronger ammo like PPS, L2A - 150 m

> subcarabines like AKS-74U, G36C, XM177 or weak M1 Carbine range 200-250 m

> carbine like M4 - 300-350 meters

> assault rifles - 400 m like BIS gave this value

> mguns, lmgs 5.45, 5.56 - 400-500 m

> mguns 7.62, sniper rifles - 600-800 m

accuracy of normal assault rifle in single mode 0.001-0.002

SMG 0.003-0.005, MG 0.004

underbarreled grenade hit range 6-7

fragmentation defensive handgrenade 10-12

offensive grenade stronger hit but range 6

I see what you are saying, but the beauty ofp all the different mods is that you could pick the mod that had the values that you liked. Trying to stadardize armor and weapons values would, I believe, only cause problems among addon makers. Personally, I play total conversion or replacement meds with values that I like. Just my opinion though. It could work, but I have my doubts

Nice ideas, and i hope stuff like JAM and ACES will help to keep things balanced.

For infantry personal weapons the answer is JAM, for vehicles its CAVS. I havent tested air vehicles ACES yet but hopefully it would be good.

All PMC releases (including VTE) will use JAM and CAVS (like I said I havent tested ACES yet).

Of course these are OFP modifications, hopefully they get ported to ArmA. I already did my personal JAM for ArmA while testing my missions.

Al:

i don't talk about JAM because it is just one of addons

i talk about accuracy values for all addons made

JAM includes weapons models, but for example , someone makes his own magazines , weapons models better than JAM ?

why we should use one addon, why don't we use similar accuracy values

Victor :

once i wanted to make mission using single addons and 2 Shermans killed 4 Tigers, few US soldiers killed dozens of germans,

you telling about MODs

but what if we wanna make mission from weapon model X from addonmaker Y, weapon Z from addonmaker ABC, and units from guy DEF, and car from man GHI

and it not works ?

for example better rifle will be less accurate than poor quality rifle but made by other addonmaker, because this second addonmaker gave very very high accuracy to his rifle

imagine situation - one guy makes his PPSZ super accurate

other man made Mauser 98K with ARMA values and PPSZ is than more accurate than other man's 98K

nonsense !

or one man makes AT grenadelauncher that is so strong that kills tank one shot, and you make mission and 2 soldiers kills all enemy tanks

?

MODS make sometimes only few weapons but if i want to make missions using units from other addonmaker and they are not comparable

for me it is nonsense and "minus" not "plus"

So, vilas, are you volunteering as the one who researches,

collates and publishes all this data? I agree some consistency

would be very good, but who's going to be in charge?

when making older stuff like shermans and tigers, fellow addonmakers.. pls rember to downpower weapons and armour .. they had less back then

ei a M1A1 got a 120mm Cannon, thats very powerfull today.

a tiger had a 88mm cannon, that was very powerfull then but not today..

I appluad your intention villas but i think this is best left to individual MODs.

There is more argumentitve diatribe about accuracy in these forums than you could ever read.

I'll sum it up for you (off the top of my head)

person 1

I have been in firefights every day for the last 6mths and no-ones hit Sh*t.......

person 2

Oh yeh well I can a shot rooster of its perch at 800m with my CAR-15........

All valid arguments.

But they can detract greatly from any themed atmosphere that a MOD maker is trying to achieve.

Personaly I'd push for larger teams of MOD makers making larger MODs. That should produce more of this elusive 'standardisation' and we get the best of all worlds.

okay, Colonel asked me for my proposal:

in ARMA BIS gave to infantry weapons with ironsights :

opticsZoomMin = 0.22;

opticsZoomMax = 0.42;

in OFP it was near to 0.33

my suggestion is that this zoom range has to big range

lets make weapons with ironsights with values of zoom 0.42 - 0.3/0.28 (my values)

otherwise people with other weapons from other addonmaker will have too much magnification, or maybe without zoom in RMB ?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g

t;>>>>>

in real life there are 4 types off ammunition used by infantry and 3 types of grenades:

----------------------------

- pistol ammo, used to pistols, submachineguns, such weapon fires at range 25-100 meters, of course there were stronger SMGs (PPSZ, PPS with 7.62x25 or Sterlin with special "PARA SMG only" but usually this kind of weapon is not for fights at range 200 m , but my proposal is AI maxrange = 100-150 m for SMG;

- intermediante ammo - 5.56 NATO< AK ammo, Kurtz ammo - it is much stronger than pistol ammo, but less atronger than rifle ammo, it is used in assault rifles (AR, AK, M16, G36), subcarabines (AKSU, Colt Commando, HK G36C) also it is used in light machineguns like SAW, RPD, Polish RKM03, effective range of this type of ammunition is 400 meters, i would stay with BIS values here;

- full rifle ammo (7.92 mauser, 7.62 NATO, 7.62 R Mosin) it is strong ammo and it can hit and hurt at distance 1000-2000 meters, but usually machineguns are used up to 800 meters as well as sniper scoped rifles, normal assault rifle with this ammo (FAL, G3) is used also on 400 meters, because of human eye, such rifle without scope gives nothing

- special purpose ammo - sniper bullets Lapua, 12.7 ammo, etc. (we don't discuss it)

------------------------------

BIS gave in ARMA all types of grenades the same characteristics, indirectHitRange = 7; hit =20; indirectHit = 18;

- frag grenades like F1 (defensive grenades) - have biger effective range than offensive grenade, lets say in game it should be 14 meters ? normally it is used "throw and fall for a cover",

my proposal : indirectHitRange = 14; hit =20; indirectHit = 16;

- offensive grenades i would give them more power but 7 meters range (BIS value) , normally they are used when soldiers are taking buildings, my proposal: indirectHitRange = 7; hit =25; indirectHit = 18;

- grenadelauncher grenades, BIS gave it as in OFP the same power as to handgrenades - but normally they are weaker, because they are only 40 mm , so i would like to give them 70 % power of HG, my proposal indirectHitRange = 7; hit =18; indirectHit = 14;

- mortars not made yet, but the have sometimes power better than HG, my proposal: indirectHitRange = 15; hit =30; indirectHit = 18; in OFP they were too strong, overpowered, but mortar for Mauser 98K was weak, it was like grenade as far as i know

and what you all think about it ?

Very nice initiative!

I would suggest when this is getting off the ground... to place all the info in the BIKI...

I would suggest getting most prominent addon makers in the discussion as soon as possible and anyone who would like to join in can do so....

It would be great if this group would discuss and evaluate together the values etc... and 1 very good setting comes out of this...

It should be a community effort and most should stand behind it, if you ask me... I think it is very important that there is listened to anyone who has to bring in any opinion and carefully evaluated, otherwise you will get ppl that don't bother to use nor discuss about it (anymore), simply because their ideas are ignored ..

The thing is though, I think the idea about a JAM, CAVS & ACES or some sorts is the best idea ever... CAVS is of coarse only a list of values while JAM is aswell magazines and ammo etc...

You say 'why use 1 addon, while we can use any addon we want, IF we use the same values'... Thats true of coarse, but you still cant put the M4 Magazine of SJB into the BIS M4  etc. etc. So wouldnt it be better to have a great system which everyone can use, while there are configuration files for the sounds (much like JAM3 had) etc. etc. and thus keeping a maximum user experience by providing the possibilities to interact the magazines between all the weapons?

My own solution in OFP was simply creating a framework for all the different vehicles, weapons and units that there are, then aiming those to the different addons, but overwriting the armor, accuracy, dammage etc. etc. values. It was a b*tch to do, but in the end you had quite a balanced mod, but only available on ur own server and not for public or other servers, so its a solution, but limits it pretty much unless you ask permission from everyone, integrate it all into a huge mod and go public with it

good idea.

if we do like that.

for instance for PZF-3. LCWF MOD, Switzerland MOD, BWMOD and other Mod will write same config spec

but, that's too complicated work.

So, All is said. We need a basic things. like a JAM.  

Maybe making a reference into the Biki could help? Making a list of armor, ammo, weaponvalues... so every addonmaker can have a look in it to get infos for his work.

y not using existing armor values?

i mean i already see it coming nth version of the m4 or ak74...

arma already uses realistic values.

and values that havent been made before can be set by comparing these to the existing ones..

btw who of you can exatly tell what kinetic energy some specfic weapon can fire with and what amount of damage it will do to an object...

ive always been puzzled with that..

There are quite a few values that are a bit off in ArmA, may it be the AK with a kick like a old Ak-47 or the T72A that can knock out a M1 easily and takes hits like the M1.

Its not huge things though but i just had to answer to the sentence where you said it already uses realistic values.

Oh and about Armor piercing etc, there are quite a few sites on the internet where you can easiely gather correct values, like for example Fafanovs tank page.

"arma already uses realistic values."

are you joking ?

AK here is 2 times less accurate than M16 and AK kicks as hell

in real life AK74 have very good compensator and is one of most stable weapons

in game shooting from M16 and AK 74 at 200 meters makes very very big difference (M16 dispersion 0.0015, AK 0.0025 , PK 0.005, M240 0.0038 )

so Russian guns are such inaccurate ? and US weapons are the best ?

one shot in front of turret from T72 kills M1A2 Abrams ?

you call it realistic ?

A direct cooperation wont be happening, too many ppl will start making ArmA addons and not everyone will read this forum / thread.

The best thing we could hope for would be another JAM/MAAM and various model-replacement packs/configs.

What's really annoying is that ppl aren't satisfied with just replacing models/sounds but also 'increase gameplay experience', forcing players to play with increased ai shooting range, horrible breathing sounds and unrealistic weapon aim/recoils.

I say let's keep it all in SEPERATED packs. Model packs, sound packs, island packs, realism config packs etc etc.

No more MONSTER packs plz.

...

ok so you want that t72 cant kill an abrams with one well placed shot? hmm....

well im no expert... bit it might happen you know..

same as someone might kill a m1a1 with a HE- 50 cal round that penerates the hull - turret connection and detonates in the mag store...

Well for V.I.R.U.S. I am using only Arma-standard classes for the new models... This way it should be compitable to all other addons!

a flock of wild sparrows could land on the tank and infect the crew with bird flu...

we could split hairs all night

a flock of wild sparrows could land on the tank and infect the crew with bird flu...

we could split hairs all night  

Agree, there must be borders, and you could always make scripts with random factors that take care of such situations... perhaps?

btw who of you can exatly tell what kinetic energy some specfic weapon can fire with and what amount of damage it will do to an object...

ive always been puzzled with that..

The biggest problem with this is that balancing ALL vehicles and weapons is nearly impossible, especially using BIS values as a starting point. The Abrams armor is only 900. How much stronger is an Abrams than, say, a Sherman? Even if its only 5x stronger (and its obviously much stronger), then the Sherman's armor is only 180. You could kill it with grenades in almost no time!

Short of upping the armor values an insane amount, there is no way to get ALL time periods to fit the same armor model.

well for ww2 etc addons, a new set of base values could be sorted, but for those around the same era as arma, then there is no need for new base values... or very little need

well for ww2 etc addons, a new set of base values could be sorted, but for those around the same era as arma, then there is no need for new base values... or very little need

A common set per era is much more attainable, imho. It would be very nice to see all the WWII addons at least in the same general area damagewise.

"btw who of you can exatly tell what kinetic energy some specfic weapon can fire with and what amount of damage it will do to an object...

ive always been puzzled with that."

sometimes full rifle bullet loses less energy in body that 5.56, but i wasn't saying about energy of bullet hit !!!

other loss is when there is armor vest other than not protected body, i don't care , lets give all bullets same hit (5.56, 7.62) and little less energy to pistol bullet (8-8.5)

I was talking about maximum AI fire range for SMG/AR/MG

and about its accuracy !

don't care, lets say hit =9 (like in ARMA) or 10 - nevermind

but important is accuracy and AI fire range

somebody told about replacements pack, but why i should use JAM if my M14 or SKS model is much better quality and more detailed ?

Polish players want use my addons, ut there are problems that for example my units (less accuracy than BIS gave to OFP) doesn't win with other people addons , because in OFP weapons are very very accurate

also people wanna mix addons to mission

as i said before addon from man A, addon from B, addon from C but sometimes it is impossible to make mission with it

well for ww2 etc addons, a new set of base values could be sorted, but for those around the same era as arma, then there is no need for new base values... or very little need

A common set per era is much more attainable, imho. It would be very nice to see all the WWII addons at least in the same general area damagewise.

yeah thats what I was getting at... while we can keep the modern era values around the ones BIS set, other era's should be able to use their own values.. or to be honest they could still use the BIA values... anyone who wants to pitch a m1a1 against a sherman hasnt got any right to complain about them being able to match each other in power... a sherman is an m1a1 equivalent for its era...

i dont know... it would be up to those in those specific era's to decide