Recoil (again)

[AnimalMother92 10]

I'm really growing to like the new recoil, it's much better than how it used to be. Though I still feel it's overdone for semi auto shots on a lot of weapons. For the most part it feels fair in auto or burst.

[76 0]

I like the latest recoil; except when prone. You can't even do 3-5 rnd bursts with a SAW because it still kicks the barrel waaayy up. Last night during MP I couldn't even lay suppressing fire for my team because after 4 or 5 rounds it was shooting 50 feet over their heads, and the spread was horrendous. I had to do single-round shots to even get close; and if they were running...there was no hope.

I think when prone your aim should auto-center (since the weapon is laying on the ground), so you can at least get some decent groups with bursts. I wanted to also suggest making it shake your screen a little more so it's a little harder to follow your target; but still possible to hit them (trying to simulate the gun kicking back more than up while prone).

However I really like the standing and kneeling recoil; seems pretty accurate.

I agree with all of the above, you should/could create an ticket at dev-heaven

[no use for a name 0]

I agree with all of the above, you should/could create an ticket at dev-heaven

Actually I found it was a conflict with a mod that was causing it to be a little too "dramatic"; once I disabled that it's actually very close to what I was expecting.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Now I've never fired an M249 but I'm pretty sure that if I was lying down and I just pulled the trigger and aimed at nothing that the end result would not be the gun pointing straight up into the air with my back at a 90 degree angle to my legs.

Nor does it in the game. Emptying a 100 round clip from a SAW at prone gives me almost no barrel climb at all. All I'm getting is about one rearpost size angular movement, not many degrees at all. And it doesn't take a lot of "gun work" (mouse movement) to keep it approximately on target. And of course under no circumstance would you ever fire the SAW in this way anyway, so it's really a non issue.

Edited August 15, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[domokun 515]

Actually I found it was a conflict with a mod that was causing it to be a little too "dramatic"; once I disabled that it's actually very close to what I was expecting.

Mind telling us the name of the "mod that was causing it"?

[no use for a name 0]

Mind telling us the name of the "mod that was causing it"?

Well it could be any mod that modifies the recoil; but in my case it was one of the Proper Mods that increases weapon sway.

It's really best to play the betas with no mods for this reason. I usually use mod directories; but when I installed the Proper mods I put them in my addons dir. and forgot that they weren't disabled when I ran the game.

[enad 11]

I don't like the new recoil. It basically makes its impossible to hit anything past 20m with any gun in full auto. It's hard enough to hit them in semi auto.

By instinct you would lower your gun after shooting. The recoil now is like your arms are stiff as wood. The new recoil could be good if it was ALOT less exaggerated.

I hope this doesn't end up in the next official patch. It's more annoying than anything, especially since the AI doesn't have this problem with aiming.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Well, I for one love it and would like to see it implemented. The whole point of it is to make us less accurate, and it works. Trying to shoot too quickly makes me miss the targets. More shooting = longer firefights, great for the ambience. We are supposed to be soldiers under stress, not range shooters.

As for climbing vs random offset, with climbing we at least have a sense of how the gun behaves and can easily work the gun to get the sight picture back. With random offset, it wouldn't be a constant drag-down effort, but I think it would be even more annoying/time consuming as we didn't have a clue on how to work the gun.

I've never fired a 5.56 weapon in full auto, but I've fired 7.62 weapon in full auto. Granted, it wasn't a modern 7.62 like the Mk17. I'm not able to hit anything beyond 20 meters there either without working the gun - which in real life is using force to hold it down. Accurate shooting? Hell no. Even prone shooting at the range doing targets at 200 meters that wasn't shooting back, you spent quite some time to resight the 7.62.

[AnimalMother92 10]

The whole point of it is to make us less accurate, and it works. Trying to shoot too quickly makes me miss the targets. More shooting = longer firefights, great for the ambience.

This. I really like what the beta recoil has done for firefights.

That being said, I still think it needs tweaking. I'm glad that it encourages the use of semi over auto, but it feels overdone even on semi. Tapping out shots on an M4 is a little too arduous.

Hopefully, they continue to tweak and improve it...but I wouldn't want it to go away - it's a big step forward from the old recoil model.

[kylania 568]

Well, I for one love it and would like to see it implemented. The whole point of it is to make us less accurate, and it works. Trying to shoot too quickly makes me miss the targets. More shooting = longer firefights, great for the ambience. We are supposed to be soldiers under stress, not range shooters.

When it's so bad I cannot double tap, there's a problem. I'm not talking about full auto murder, I mean two deliberate squeezes of the trigger. First one is on target, second one is in orbit. That shouldn't happen. :(

I've never fired a 5.56 weapon in full auto, but I've fired 7.62 weapon in full auto.

I'm pretty sure a Delta Operator would be able to handle shooting 7.62 in full auto a lot better than a computer gamer and aren't we playing professional soldiers in game? :)

[akd42 10]

When it's so bad I cannot double tap, there's a problem. I'm not talking about full auto murder, I mean two deliberate squeezes of the trigger. First one is on target, second one is in orbit. That shouldn't happen. :(

I'm pretty sure a Delta Operator would be able to handle shooting 7.62 in full auto a lot better than a computer gamer and aren't we playing professional soldiers in game? :)

Double-tap at what range? 1000m like with original BIS recoil? 200m? This is still in the range of fantasy. 10m? Quite doable with new recoil system and practice.

I'm pretty sure a Delta Operator would be able to handle shooting 7.62 in full auto a lot better than a computer gamer and aren't we playing professional soldiers in game? :)

Really it is simple physics. 7.62 Nato weapons are difficult to control in full auto. It has been said that the the SCAR-H is one of the easier 7.62 Nato weapons to control, but it is still 7.62.

(Note this is the long-barreled marksman SCAR-H. Short-barreled versions would have even more recoil.)

Just tried the new RH HK-416 pack and the recoil on these weapons combined with the beta is much better than the BIS linear upwards version, with a much more random directional element. In operation it is very similar to video above.

Edited August 18, 2010 by akd42

[no use for a name 0]

I don't like the new recoil. It basically makes its impossible to hit anything past 20m with any gun in full auto. It's hard enough to hit them in semi auto.

By instinct you would lower your gun after shooting. The recoil now is like your arms are stiff as wood. The new recoil could be good if it was ALOT less exaggerated.

I hope this doesn't end up in the next official patch. It's more annoying than anything, especially since the AI doesn't have this problem with aiming.

lol I thought that was the point...You try firing a 5.56 or 7.62 in full auto IRL and see how accurate you are

[CarlGustaffa 4]

In another thread it was mentioned that the shot:kill ratio in Falkland War was in the neighborhood of 10000:1 - think about that for a second. Now it's gonna be a lot lower in a game due to AI's inability/desire to stay alive; proning instead of finding cover, attacking/maneuver without suppression etc. And naturally players risk taking being rewarded with kills because getting killed/wounded has no real cost at all.

In tonights session I played with the Mk16 Mk4CQ/T, and I had generally no problems "double tapping" targets at 200m, as long as I "worked the gun". Sometimes I hit, most times I missed, but even the misses had an effect in that enemy was being suppressed; could not return accurate fire.

Full auto worked reasonably fine in close ranges (<50m). Again, all you need to do is "work the gun" and get bullets downrange - forget about hitting stuff. If you need to hit stuff, use well aimed shots, which takes time to setup. The game needs every help it can get to get the firefights instead of the turkey shoot. I just don't get what is fun with a distance shootout where players are bound to win. If it's difficult, lower the AI accuracy, and enjoy the prolonged fight between the two of you.

"Work the gun" means pull downward while you shoot. It's fully possible to get some hits within reasonable distances. It's impossible to get all hits - just like in the real world. Take a look at that ratio figure again.

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

I like the recoil. If anything, dont make it less.

I would even like to see a balance between damage, recoil and caliber on the rifles.

I'm pretty sure a Delta Operator would be able to handle shooting 7.62 in full auto a lot better than a computer gamer and aren't we playing professional soldiers in game? :)

The "delta operator" will most probably figure out that using full auto with higher calibers is a waste of ammo. They wont really be able to handle it better than a computer game... Special forces wish they could move and shoot like people do in video games like COD4.

[PTV-Jobo 820]

Slightly more reworking and I'll love it. I remember reading somewhere about possibly looking into a weapon rest feature? Is that correct? Did BIS say that it's something they wouldn't mind looking into doing down the road? I'm quite interested and know a few of my guys are as well, but didn't find any info about it other than one or two brief comments awhile back.

[Fox '09 14]

honestly i think it's fine. Just getting used to it took some time, but now i'm kicking butt hehe

[tyler4171 10]

First one is on target, second one is in orbit. That shouldn't happen.

"Houstan, we have a problem"

-Apollo 13

Like Fox, Ive got used to it, of course I dont double tap or use full auto.

[LukeFF 10]

I like the new recoil. I've noticed that, for instance, the AKM moves up and to the right a little after every shot, just like my Romanian WASR-10/63. IMO it doesn't really need much tweaking.

[HyperU2 11]

I'm only running A2 and on the latest beta the recoil seems a little too strong to be realistic, happy to see the thought though. Rapid firing is more automatic than this allows, when done properly your body returns to the target with less effort. Even the SAW is tame in offhand.

[50.cal 10]

That's exactly what I think too.

Although I'm now getting used to the new recoil it still feels a bit to hard to readjust fire and as a result it slows me down too much.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Slowing us down I think is the major benefit of this system :) Played medic yesterday with M4, and didn't have much problems with rapid fires when needed (close enemy).

[50.cal 10]

Trust me, it feels really wrong. Aiming is already something weird in this game due to control lag etc.

Did some tests with the old recoil system and it was way better.

If some ppl like to feel like uncoordinated or drunk soldier it's not a problem for me but pls think about the rest of us as well by making all these things optional just like the headbob.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Aim, shoot, wait, shoot, wait, shoot, wait, shoot? That's the old system. Re-aiming in the real world doesn't work like that. Perfect or not, it's still infinitely better than the old system. Being optional means someone would get the edge over others, which has been said numerous times in this thread already.

[dmarkwick 261]

In general I'm in favour of the recoil system, but in a lot of situations it's overdone, using a machine gun while prone for example. With the current recoil, I am so affected by it that I can only fire one or two rounds with any sort of accuracy while prone, which gives me exactly no advantage over being crouched (other than being less visible). Obviously this is wrong, as a machine gunner you should have a significant advantage for being prone.

[50.cal 10]

Sure but as you say there's still something wrong. In terms of performance it's quite much under what I could do with a real weapon and a little training.

Aim, shoot, wait, shoot, wait, shoot, wait, shoot?

If the waiting time is accurate (fast enough) yes. That way I won't be forced to "snipe" with a m4.

Although I'm getting used to the new recoil and getting quite efficient with it now, I still think that dragging the mouse down and trying to put the sight back on target the way we have to do now is way to slow compared to what any normally constituted person would do.

On the other hand the camera shake effect (which is in my opinion the best enhancement concerning the shooting aspect of the game) is too weak when you consider that we're not shooting from the hip in arma.

All in all it's an excellent idea to improve the recoil and I'm all for it but there's still some work to do in order to get it right ;-)