Recoil (again)

[rübe 127]

DO NOT RELY on BI for this.They do not have time to be pursuing perfection for each weapon instead doing broad changes for effect.I don't blame them and I would just leave as is and put option for use original or new recoil.That said I think modding community should come together on this issue.

Infantery and thus the handling of guns is the core aspect of this whole game. And you suggest that "the modding community" should fix this? Are you friggin kidding me?

[Wolfstriked 11]

I guess your right.There are many people who just wanna install and play and never use mods.Still though for a really great weapon recoil effects I think modders would do it justice.

[Chumba 10]

Using screen shake is THE big answer IMO for presenting a good facsimile of weapons handling. The effect needs to be larger across the board and then tailored to individual weapons. Even if the old 100% return to origin recoil is used - if the screen "jumps" significantly then the player is forced to refocus and reestablish the target picture - very close to real life practice. Experience and familiarity eventually produces a higher degree of comfort / less disorientation - could it seriously get any better than that??? (doublethumbsup)

[7 0]

This new recoil needs to be tuned down. Add some more aim sway (and decrease AI accuracy likewise) and it would be perfect.

5pXTB0iUBfY

Edit: We need to be able to suppress AI even more, although this is kind of off-topic.

Edited July 26, 2010 by 7

[Wolfstriked 11]

Looks good 7....how is it in auto?Any difference in sway when kneeling and prone?

[metalcraze 290]

New beta patch makes a recoil for assault rifles quite OK.

[50.cal 10]

It's good to try to improve things but looking at how it is now we're still very far from what it should be.

Nowadays with modern AR you won't see you're sight going up right. This mainly concerns those old AKs that have an heavy bolt rocking back out of the weapon axis. That's one of the main reason why you can't hit anything at range with ak47.

On the other hand the kick back might stuns you bit depending on the power of the weapon. It's a small explosion going off near your face as well...(more camera shake and perhaps some VERY LIGHT blur effect while firing might simulate this better).

At 200m and more the recoil itself will affect your accuracy. It's not just about putting your sight at the right place and pull the trigger. You need to be very stable and well positioned to be accurate when you try to aim at something farther than 150-200m.

At 300m if your sight is just 0.1° out of its axis your bullet will go half a meter away from what you where aiming at.

Now who would expect to be able to hit anything at those ranges with the recoil model we have now?

Finally, again, I've done some more tests with the M249 on a milita group (not wearing any protection gear) placed at 400m.

Seriously it sometimes take up to 4 head shots to kill an enemy.

If one hit might not always be enough at that range ok but I would definitely expect to see them out of the fight after two 5.56 rounds in the butt.

This aspect of the game is probably one of the most important and I really hope it will be improved accordingly.

[arthur666 10]

...Seriously it sometimes take up to 4 head shots to kill an enemy.

If one hit might not always be enough at that range ok but I would definitely expect to see them out of the fight after two 5.56 rounds in the butt.

This aspect of the game is probably one of the most important and I really hope it will be improved accordingly.

Agreed. I noticed this more lately, not sure if anything has been changed in a recent beta...

5 shots from 250m with M4A1 didn't stop a Takistani soldier. Not very realistic when it happens so often. Once in a while, sure.

[-=seany=- 5]

I like the new recoil, but...I was using the M240 and M249 recently and they have too much recoil when you are prone. They have Bi-pods so they should be pretty stable when lying down.

[Murklor 10]

I like the new recoil, but...I was using the M240 and M249 recently and they have too much recoil when you are prone. They have Bi-pods so they should be pretty stable when lying down.

Are you using the latest beta? The M249 has basicly *no* recoil when prone and the M240 scoped is quite manageable (havent tried the others).

In contrast, the FN FAL fired in burst mode appear to be a simulation of your eyeball bouncing around in its socket or something.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Just went back to Arma 2 and actually am starting to think that the new recoil might just add more clunkiness to the game....an aspect it could do without IMO.The old recoil has a nice fluidity to it that makes for a more pleasant ride sitting at a desk.

I wonder what everyone here thinks about reverting back to using the old recoil w/the new recoil only for single shots.Then the engine could add alot of dispersion for auto fire.This could add a nice feel that is lacking in firing of weapons in Arma2.When the engine sees more than one shot in a seconds time it then puts dispersion at high setting.This dispersion could be set differently for the 3 positions.

Another idea would be to use the sway effect better.After each shot the sway effect can be multiplied by certain amount and slowly drops down to standard setting.This would cause the shooter to have to wait a split second or more for the wave effect to dissipate as a shooter does in real life after a shot.But just a slight multiply though...Arma2 takes things too far IMO.When fully exhausted the sway should not be a jittery mess as it is now but just a bit stronger.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Wolfstriked

[50.cal 10]

Agreed. I noticed this more lately, not sure if anything has been changed in a recent beta...

5 shots from 250m with M4A1 didn't stop a Takistani soldier. Not very realistic when it happens so often. Once in a while, sure.

I didn't mention it but I'm always using the latest beta.

[MavericK96 0]

Seriously it sometimes take up to 4 head shots to kill an enemy.

If one hit might not always be enough at that range ok but I would definitely expect to see them out of the fight after two 5.56 rounds in the butt.

This aspect of the game is probably one of the most important and I really hope it will be improved accordingly.

Yeah, this has confused me as well. I can't even tell if I'm hitting them half the time because they will absorb like 5-6 rounds before dying.

[enforcer1975 0]

Yeah, this has confused me as well. I can't even tell if I'm hitting them half the time because they will absorb like 5-6 rounds before dying.

That's a major disadvantage of the small round. Shot a Tak from 4-500m with the Mk.17. I decked the guy on the first hit ( maybe 3 of 10 hits are not deadly because i hit a limb ).

And of course some balancing in game that gives the SAW a small damage advantage over the M4/16 in exchange for more recoil and a tiny bit less accuracy in comparison ( at least from my experience )

[50.cal 10]

After further testing today. I'll tone down my last remark concerning the recoil.

It's not perfect but it's not that bad either.

Now if the damage could be increased on the 5.56 weapons/bullets it would be be nice!

I think the enemy, if not dead, should systematically be combat infective after one or tow hit in any limb until a medic heal them. And this should stay true from 0 to at least 400m.

Edited July 31, 2010 by 50.cal

[That guy 10]

wile not wholly recoil related, BIS should change the americans default 5.56 ammo to the new m855A1 enhanced performance round. faster, more accurate, less flash and much more deadly, especially at range (supposedly more deadly than 7.62 at close range)

[AnimalMother92 10]

wile not wholly recoil related, BIS should change the americans default 5.56 ammo to the new m855A1 enhanced performance round. faster, more accurate, less flash and much more deadly, especially at range (supposedly more deadly than 7.62 at close range)

Interesting, perhaps a CIT ticket is in order?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/06/u-s-army-issues-new-m855a1-ammo-to-troops-in-afghanistan/

[arthur666 10]

Speaking of the effectiveness of the 5.56, in RL a bullet out of an M16 is more powerful than one from an M4A1 because the longer barrel lets the projectile achieve a higher muzzle velocity(930m/s vs 884m/s). Is this modeled in game? It might explain why in game the SAW (915m/s) has more power than the M4, but it shouldn't be hotter than the M16.

[enforcer1975 0]

Damage is bound to the ammo/magazine afaik.

If you use a STANAG in a M249 you have the same damage as a M4/M16. The original M249 belt might have more damage.

wile not wholly recoil related, BIS should change the americans default 5.56 ammo to the new m855A1 enhanced performance round. faster, more accurate, less flash and much more deadly, especially at range (supposedly more deadly than 7.62 at close range)

If a 7.62x39 would have the same accuracy and a flat trajectory ( meaning you can hit something ) beyond 200m it would still do more damage than the 5.56x45 you mentioned. It weighs a bit more. Unfortunatly there is a limit on the amount of weight you can put into a smaller caliber.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Enforcer1975

[MavericK96 0]

That's a major disadvantage of the small round. Shot a Tak from 4-500m with the Mk.17. I decked the guy on the first hit ( maybe 3 of 10 hits are not deadly because i hit a limb ).

And of course some balancing in game that gives the SAW a small damage advantage over the M4/16 in exchange for more recoil and a tiny bit less accuracy in comparison ( at least from my experience )

Except I've noticed this issue occurring even when using a large-caliber sniper rifle, such as the M110 or even the .50 cal.

[enforcer1975 0]

Might be, might be not. I had a few where the guy survived the shot, i assume it was lag. But that was at an extreme distance for the game.

In clan wars where lag was not an issue due to the controlled environment i didn't have a no kill shot unless i wanted the guy to suffer and crawl. Can't remember where somebody was still standing after beeing hit by a .50 in ArmA 2 if you hit the torso or head, hitting a limb might give them a chance of survival at greater distances.

It happened a couple of times in ArmA 1 in a RPG mission, but the shooter had a lousy aim and hit our legs only ( of course you wouldn't have a leg if the game could show the effect ). To his bad luck he was close enough to be enganged by M16 ACOG.

In RL the bullet from a battle rifle would still kill you at 2km... ( probably )

[MavericK96 0]

I was referring to SP as well as MP, but yeah, sometimes it's possible that it's a limb shot first, but it should not take more than 2-3 direct hits (if even that) with a high-caliber weapon to kill an enemy. I'm talking about ranges within 800m as well.

[Ringosis 10]

I really don't think the argument that the new recoil is more realistic floats. Yes it's is more realistic that you can't fire fully automatic without having to compensate for the recoil but it's equally less realistic that if you don't adjust for the recoil you end up pointing at the sky.

Now I've never fired an M249 but I'm pretty sure that if I was lying down and I just pulled the trigger and aimed at nothing that the end result would not be the gun pointing straight up into the air with my back at a 90 degree angle to my legs.

The major problem with the new recoil, as others have pointed out, is that BIS seems to have chosen to ignore the fact that 90% of players will be using a mouse as an input device and having a system which forces you to make a perpetual downwards movement ends up with an irritating and immersion breaking need to constantly pick up and replace the mouse. To me it seems they have paid for an insignificant increase in realism with a large chunk of annoyance.

I really don't see why the same effect couldn't have been achieved by having the gun settle on a random slightly off center point for single shots and adding a progressive random direction drift for fully auto.

[Beagle 684]

Well most player seem to ingnore the in reality no light automatic weapon is fired full auto at a sustained rate. Just another argument PRO new Recoil, you really dont want to see your barrel cherry red glowing. Btw. In prone position you wont notice much of the changes in recoil at all.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Beagle

[markushaze 10]

After some play testing ( combined ops) i must say.

At first i couldn't hit a thing, and i was like... yea....... damn that.

But after some practice ( sick1 Operation Delta camp ) i have to say. This is fantastic.

I just hope the same "inconvenience" goes for AI soldiers.

The feeling of firing a gun is greatly enhanced and i find a little practice and the setting works nicely.

thanx BIS for those updates.