Knife proposal

[ck-claw 1]

ARGH.

Ever so often when playing Modern Warfare (the first one, not the overpriced piece of... but I digress) someone would come up with "let's play a knife only round". Which usually was the point where I logged out,

~~ Alwarren

I used to stay in and refuse to do knife only! :D

[Pulverizer 1]

Assault rifles have slings that allow them to be carried withouth hands. Backpacks and other extra equipment would get dropped when in close combat but this is unneccessary in Arma of course because they infer no stamina penalty. Sometimes you might be a civilian or a captive soldier that doesn't even have a rifle or anything.

Again, in real life, bare hands, feet, knives, shovels and practically any object can be used as a deadly weapon. Having a knife, bayonet or riffle-butt attack would only add to the game's realism and possibilities.

[ben_s 11]

I think we don't really need a knife. But, most weapons do allow bayonets. And say, having to go into your gear and putting it on would be the best option. There are still loads of reports of people in iraq and afganistan where they have killed in CQB with Bayonets.

So it is realistic. Perhaps stopping it being a "insta-kill" weapon, but more of a disabling weapon? Where say he ends up on floor bleeding out, but can be revived... but cant shoot or anything?

Lots of ideas to try and balance it out.

[Inkompetent 0]

Sure, knifes could be good IF the game simulated lack of space to maneuver even better. I can think of two things that'd motivate a close combat weapon:

1) Out of ammunition when in VERY close quarters combat, moving the few meters to the corner where your opponent is to chop him up.

2) When colliding with an enemy at such close range one can't use the weapon (like the US Ranger in Iraq that pulled his tomahawk after kicking in a door, since he was so close to an insurgent he couldn't raise his rifle)

Understand though that this also necessates a system for grappling/wrestling at the very least. Also understand that the knife isn't really ever a prefered weapon. You'll get detected if you try to go for a stealth kill with a knife. Silenced weapons exist for a reason.

Knifes, as far as their utility as a weapon goes, is a last resort or when engaging enemies at bayonet range (like assaulting a house).

just to get a good hit on a soldier with a knife today is a tough business since you can't just stab their guts with all that body armour and magazine puches and everything in the way. It's bound to be loud and anything else than quick to fight with a knife.

And since a good knife-system will take a long time to develop... skip it. There are more important things to spend development time on than something that's used once every time a full moon and eclipse coincides simultanously.

PS. Oh, and right. We need a system simulating the weapon sling as well so one can just drop the rifle or knifes will be even more useless. That's even more development time for ya.

---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------

And for christ sake..... knife is still the most common killing weapon worldwide

Yes, but that also assumes the enemy doesn't have a loaded assault rifle and a couple of hundred rounds of extra ammunition.

We're supposed to look at WAR scenarios between decently equipped military forces are we not? Not Rwanda genocide against unarmed civilians or Bitchy Bob gutting Rapper Ray in an alley behind a titty bar.

[Pulverizer 1]

It would only have to be slightly more complicated than the melee weapon addons were in OFP (FDF axe, police baton etc). Or even simpler because there would not be dummy projectiles to fire if there was a real melee weapon class in the engine. You hit, and if the target is in range of the attack, it gets damage according to hit location and its armor value, and the weapon's damage value. Extremely simple.

Why on earth would you have to "simulate" a weapon sling? Simply let the main weapon rest on the characters belly in the melee animation.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Pulverizer

[Inkompetent 0]

Well, not saying that there has to be any advanced physics and a modelled sling, but the weapon has to go somewhere, all unit skeletons have to be updated to support the feature, and I'd expect there to be new animations for dropping the rifle and pulling the knife, and putting away the knife and re-grabbing the rifle, in addition to the attack animation and combat stance.

Just saying that if we want it any properly done it's a fair amount of dev hours that we might want to see invested in other (much more used) things first.

[HyperU2 11]

They can be fun to have around though. :)

-xZqWOc89bE

[Pundaria 10]

Well, not saying that there has to be any advanced physics and a modelled sling, but the weapon has to go somewhere, all unit skeletons have to be updated to support the feature, and I'd expect there to be new animations for dropping the rifle and pulling the knife, and putting away the knife and re-grabbing the rifle, in addition to the attack animation and combat stance.

Just saying that if we want it any properly done it's a fair amount of dev hours that we might want to see invested in other (much more used) things first.

just go to the back is fine

---------- Post added at 02:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 AM ----------

And that is not a good attitude when people think too much "DEV TIME" will be put into the game. For ARMA II, I think it is already a game near realistic. But still some miles has to be covered. e.g. melee and AI. Putting in time to improve, maybe little, but it's worthy when it become more realistic and thrilling.

And adding knives may lead to abuse....so what? So be it. the "afraid-abuse-logic" will only lead to stagnation.

Every game have something to be abused. I don't want this game eventually stagnat and stay like improving only its graphic like every games else. I dont want BI to be reactionary but always innovative;).

Edited July 11, 2010 by Pundaria

[paplate 10]

Not sure if anyone said this yet, but I do believe Solus implemented knives in his SLX mod.

[HyperU2 11]

Not sure if anyone said this yet, but I do believe Solus implemented knives in his SLX mod.

That's what my video involved.

[hellfire257 3]

I was playing the campaign yesterday in OA and I could have done with a Knife (Mission 4 Co-something or another). I had planned to get right up to the wall and engage in some deadly CQB with them to suprise, but my day was ruined when I couldn't knife a guy that I nearly ran into.

So yes, I knife would be nice.

[ben_s 11]

The knife is another one of those "cool features, but stick to fixing bugs and adding more important stuff first" things.

[L3TUC3 32]

A knife? Maybe.

Now using the rifle butt to konck someone on the head would be nice.

Sure, most of the time you won't get into touching distance, but a melee button would be a godsent during houseclearing and such.

The "oh noes, no physical attack dance" when two people stand next to eachother is a wee bit silly anno 2010.

[Pundaria 10]

I've been thinking. How about disable the AI hearing sound from behind if the player is walking but not running. then this could make it stealthy and easy to make an environment suitable for melee.

[ben_s 11]

I think best option would be use a bayonet on weapon. During house-to-house fighting, a bayonet would be a great thing to have.

Turning a corner. You see a guy running at you. No time to aim weapon.... The bayonet is still used today by many armies. This is the closest we should get to osmething like this in ArmA

Obviously, BIS would have to take out the "insta-kill" properties of it, and make it more realistic. But it would be cool

[NeMeSiS 11]

I've been thinking. How about disable the AI hearing sound from behind if the player is walking but not running. then this could make it stealthy and easy to make an environment suitable for melee.

No. That is just ridiculous.

[Pundaria 10]

Also, I gotta warn BI about its future competition.

OFPDR implemented knife. Although not realistically presented in the game, it turns some people's attention to it.

What I wanna say is there already competitions exist. Staying unchange=loosing ground. Maybe a bit wasting time and invlove big changes on the gaming system. But a successful change means a success. It will keep the series going. Not only knife, but other features(smarter AI) should be implemented ASAP.

P.s. some say the AI will know where you are and a knife is not important...... you don't think out of the box. If there is a better AI, than this is not a concern:D

P.s.2 And what's wrong with the "issue" of becoming Spinter Cell..... That's cool when you can play a realistic Battlefield together with Spinter Cell (or MGS) and a powerful editor in one game.

---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 PM ----------

this knife discussion happens everytime a new BI game is released..it's NOT gonna happen

It's a pity. But it is just because we want it

Edited July 12, 2010 by Pundaria

[CarlGustaffa 4]

It's a pity. But it is just because we want it

According to the ticket, either nobody wanted it or it's a stale mate. Most of us actually don't want to see the knife, as there are far more important issues with waaaayy higher priorities for most of us. Knife - just look at the answer to your latest suggestion.

So... No thanks... There are other more suitable games for such things.

[Pundaria 10]

According to the ticket, either nobody wanted it or it's a stale mate. Most of us actually don't want to see the knife, as there are far more important issues with waaaayy higher priorities for most of us. Knife - just look at the answer to your latest suggestion.

So... No thanks... There are other more suitable games for such things.

See the poll raised before, a larger amount of people want it:j:

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Really? Eh, if you knew of such a poll, why did you have to start a new thread about it?

Also, I could pick apart your "methods of working" for not being possible, but as it's too much to write, so I'm gonna pass on this one. In the end, it would be "having to do changes deep within the engine in order to let us have knife kills in a game where you'd typically don't get within 50m of your opponent, causing god knows what problems in the process".

[froggyluv 2136]

Just because it didn't garner any votes at DevHeaven doesn't mean that the majority don't want it. Hell, I gave up on voting there when the whole AI don't follow thing was abandoned there even though the majority most definitely wanted that fixed.

Still, although I voted yes in that previous large "Bayonet/knife" poll, I stand by my current belief that it won't do much good if implemented with the current AI cqb engine. Improve that and Knives/bayonets would be more tempting.

It's not so much that a knife is the most realistic cqb alternative, it's that the absence of any cqb offensive capability when out of ammo/too close for rifle, screams louder in term of immersion breaking.

[ProfTournesol 956]

There won't be any hard work to implement it for BI, as it did exist in OFP config, but wasn't simply fully implemented (too low priority of attack for AI, only available by default when standing up).

It's only a matter of re-adding the "strokegun" simulation for the weapons that was taken away in ArmA, and link it to some moves in the CfgMoves, some animations and that's all. Very easy. And a lot of new possibilities for the modders.

That said, i don't think that BI cares about this kind of problem nor this kind of new modding possibilities.

Edited July 12, 2010 by ProfTournesol

[enforcer1975 0]

there is no such thing a silent kill. be it a knife or a suppressed weapon.

there is also no such thing as sneaking up to an enemy and shanking them in a fight.

if you are able to get with in knifing distance, that means there is already enough background noise or distractions that silence is not necessary and you should have just shot they guy. seriously, would you want to get that close to someone with a LOADED gun and try to stab them to death? seriously?

I wish i could pee on them, i got close enough to lots of "snipers" who don't have the least idea of how to move as a sniper ( lets put aside the fact that it's normally a sniper team ).

There was a mod where you could do some melee attacks. The animation system in ArmA is so crude the guy beeing attacked can run around the attacker when he is doing the stabbing or melee animation. The ability to reload is also not that new, before that you couldn't even move when reloading.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Enforcer1975

[Pundaria 10]

There won't be any hard work to implement it for BI, as it did exist in OFP config, but wasn't simply fully implemented (too low priority of attack for AI, only available by default when standing up).

It's only a matter of re-adding the "strokegun" simulation for the weapons that was taken away in ArmA, and link it to some moves in the CfgMoves, some animations and that's all. Very easy. And a lot of new possibilities for the modders.

That said, i don't think that BI cares about this kind of problem nor this kind of new modding possibilities.

All they care of less work, more money......

But I say melee could really make game thrill and fun as we could make melee mods in earlier time like Rome

---------- Post added at 07:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 AM ----------

And I do agree AI is the main problem. But that seems a problem never solved sincerely by BI as I played since OFP.... the three games are so alike in AI...........

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

If you're running out of ammo in a fire fight then you deserve to die.

A) Ask your team mate for another mag

B) Pick up a dead weapon off someone you killed earlier

C) Run away and hide until you can do either A or B

Knifing in Arma would be rediculous and again to re-iterate what someone said earlier, there's no such thing as a silent kill.

Oh and the East team get plenty of silenced weapons:

Makarov SD

AKSU-74N SD

Bizon SD

VSS Vintorez