Small arms aiming realism

[Grantman 10]

I downloaded the Arma 2 demo yesterday. One of the first things I noticed after starting basic training and beginning the firearms training was the ability to shoot just as accurately without looking down the physical sights as actually looking down them. On recruit, normal and veteran difficulty you have a HUD showing the aimpoint regardless of whether you're actually aiming or not. On veteran you don't see the aimpoint, but when firing the gun still shoots in the same spot regardless of whether I'm actually looking down the gun's sights.

I own firearms in real life so I was curious to see how they handled in a first person sim. The only sight picture that is going to give me a usable result is when I'm genuinely looking over the irons or through the scope, not a view where I can see a bit of barrel poking out on the right side of the screen with a little HUD aimpoint showing were the shot is headed. Veteran doesn't do it for me either as even without the aimpoint the shots are landing just as accurately albeit when shooting you may not be so sure where the first shot is going to land without the hud. Not being forced to aim down the sights in order to shoot accurately is a tremendous turn off for me. Aiming over the sights is shooting 101. To not force something so fundamental and basic ruins the experience for me at ground level.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Grantman

[Steakslim 1]

....then play on veteran?

I'm not sure if your rant has a point that isn't already provided with a solution.

I should add that the 'sight' at the center of your screen isn't an accurate representation of where the gun is pointing when it is not raised, however the bullets will travel in that general direction with varying degrees of success though off to the right a bit. You can play the game however you wish to play. You can use the ironsight/optic view exclusively if you wish to, no one is stopping you. I do as there's a lot of times I do not trust "shooting from the hip". What 'ruins' it for you is trivial and BIS does have to provide leeway for other not so 'hardcore' players.

[max power 21]

At certain ranges this is true, but at other ranges this shouldn't be possible. The unsighted crosshairs suffer from a parallax problem. They are zeroed for some range, but closer and further than that they should get out of sync. Try shooting something at point blank range with the cross hairs and see what I mean.

[sbsmac 0]

The crosshairs do not represent "shooting from the hip". The player model always has the weapon raised to the shoulder in Arma. The parallax occurs because the crosshairs represent a line drawn starting at the player-model's head. This line is parallel to the line drawn from and through the barrel of the player's gun so there is obviously a few inches difference.

As already mentioned, you can use the game options to turn off the crosshairs in any difficulty setting. They can also be disabled server-side and some MP servers have them permanently disabled.

[HyperU2 11]

Even with the crosshair off I can usually pick targets off without looking down the sites out to about 100m, now what do we do? How about we pretend it's a game?

[sbsmac 0]

To quote an old music-hall joke....

Patient: "Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this."

Doctor: "Then stop doing it !"

If it really bothers you that you are able to do it (and no-one is forcing you as far as I can tell) you could try turning up the floating-zone which will stop the aimpoint being locked to the center of the screen.

[Grantman 10]

As I said, putting the game on expert setting removes the hud but does not remedy the fact that you can shoot perfect groups without looking down the sights. A feat at home in a dream world or some arcade. I'm not going to make my turning and viewing sloppy to try and simulate a basic reality. Even that still wouldn't work once settled into a position. Shots should be spraying every which way. Expert setting doesn't remedy this at all. It merely removes the aiming dot which doesn't stop you approximating your first shot to get on target with nicely grouped successive shots anyway. It's such a mind numbingly basic fundamental requirement of shooting it's inexcusable to get it wrong. Yeah it's a game but it's touted as a simulation and it certainly has quality simulation specs... Not being forced to aim down the sights is tantamount to a driving simulation where cars can't lose traction. I can hardly believe this. The rest of the game may be epic but when something so fundamental isn't enforced it really goes down the toilet big time for me. It annoys me so much I bothered to weed out this forum and actually say something about it. You can cover all manner or variables and get your engine humming nicely but for goodness sake put the wheels on properly. I'm disgusted that something so simple could be hashed up so badly. Needless to say I doubt I'll be playing this game. Thank goodness for demos.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Grantman

[dmarkwick 261]

Then just go. This community doesn't need people who insist that their small pet peeve is a total game killer, and refuse all solutions. Thank goodness for demos.

There are many options open for you. A small floating zone. Disable the sight. Use a mod that changes the sight. But I recommend just going. The game is indeed epic, but if you cannot even solve one simple issue or even accept solutions provided to you then we don't need you, you'll just whine.

Toodles.

[TimRiceSE 10]

Remove crosshair.

Aiming deadzone.

Remove whiners.

Goodbye.

[Antigoon 10]

Could be that I'm a total noob but the servers I play on, do not allow crosshairs and if he says he can shoot groups at the distances where most engagements happen (150m to 350 and beyond), he must be an incredible shot! If any of you regular players can also do that without using your sights, plz explain to me how, so I can start complaining about this as well;)

[Grantman 10]

Then just go. This community doesn't need people who insist that their small pet peeve is a total game killer, and refuse all solutions. Thank goodness for demos.

There are many options open for you. A small floating zone. Disable the sight. Use a mod that changes the sight. But I recommend just going. The game is indeed epic, but if you cannot even solve one simple issue or even accept solutions provided to you then we don't need you, you'll just whine.

Toodles.

None of these things remedy the fact you can shoot effective tight groups without needing to look down the sights once set in position. Take the constructive criticism with some dignity and get it fixed. I'm just an average joe who recently tried the game and bothered to point out the short fall, not some embarrasingly blind fanboy. You bet I'm outa here. When Bohemia fix this basic shooting 101 issue I'll buy their game. No business get's anywhere by ignoring their consumers. Unlike yourself Bohemia has taken constructive criticism as I've read from the reviews of OFP and Arma 1. It's a good thing for business that you don't represent the company, clearly.

[sbsmac 0]

To be fair the ability to shoot tight 'groups' without using the sights is probably more to do with the way your aim auto-returns after recoil. Interestingly, the latest OA beta seems to have removed this - see this thread so Grantman may end up slightly less disgusted if he sticks with it. ;)

[dmarkwick 261]

None of these things remedy the fact you can shoot effective tight groups without needing to look down the sights once set in position. Take the constructive criticism with some dignity and get it fixed. I'm just an average joe who recently tried the game and bothered to point out the short fall, not some embarrasingly blind fanboy. You bet I'm outa here. When Bohemia fix this basic shooting 101 issue I'll buy their game. No business get's anywhere by ignoring their consumers. Unlike yourself Bohemia has taken constructive criticism as I've read from the reviews of OFP and Arma 1. It's a good thing for business that you don't represent the company, clearly.

It's been explained to you that the weapon is always up at the shoulder, and from that position it's possible to get a reasonable tight group. This game does not shoot from the hip. You could use TrackIR, a floatng zone, and a no-sights setting and you'd have your desired innaccuracy. And, I believe that holding a rifle in one position and firing several shots will naturally group it.

However, if this ridiculously dramatic concentration on one (solvable) detail ruins the entire game for you, then I suggest you do exactly as you suggested.

[Simon C 0]

Bear in mind that the demo is massively old now, and hasn't been updated since it was released, unlike the game which has gone through several patches since then.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

With latest beta you won't be able to shoot tight groups, since you have to resight after each shot. Forget the demo, it is horrible compared to todays versions.

[Dreepa 10]

In the contrary to the OPs opinion, I feel that aiming down the sights is unrealistic. At least the artifical way it is done (toggle with right mouseclick). It obstruct your view more than it does in reality. It feels artificial, as I cannot move as fluent with the gun at my shoulder, putting it down a bit, moving around the corner, putting it up again, or even steadily going around the corner while aiming down the sight. Its either 1 or 0. Its either ON or OFF. My body works different. My body is a natural tool of my will. I am really embarassed that BIS didnt simulate the capabilites of my natural body feel (*cough* sarcasm *cough*).

So in conclusion, I need the abstraction of my natural body feel and natural weapon/body movement, that the game gives me: The crosshair on screen.

I already bought the game for you. I wouldnt have bought it without the crosshair. So I am the customer that takes your place ;)

See what I did here? :P

Edited July 4, 2010 by Dreepa

[cossack8559 10]

Buy Operation Arrowhead and install the beta patch, then see if you can shoot and actually hit anything without aiming.

[MissionMaximus 10]

None of these things remedy the fact you can shoot effective tight groups without needing to look down the sights once set in position. Take the constructive criticism with some dignity and get it fixed. I'm just an average joe who recently tried the game and bothered to point out the short fall, not some embarrasingly blind fanboy. You bet I'm outa here. When Bohemia fix this basic shooting 101 issue I'll buy their game. No business get's anywhere by ignoring their consumers. Unlike yourself Bohemia has taken constructive criticism as I've read from the reviews of OFP and Arma 1. It's a good thing for business that you don't represent the company, clearly.

Well, this is my 1st post on a long 1 year stalker tour of these great forums. I must say your missing out buddy this game is freaking epic. How epic, I have purchased this game Arma2 (3 times) by way of Steam, Best Buy(physical disc) and by Combined Operations(Gamestop) not to mention an Intel 80gig SSD just for it. So that should tell you something. Plus, you have unlimited Mods from some of the best in the business on these forums who share their hard-work for free. I am still struggling with the game coming from the arcadey BF series but I have never had this much fun with a videogame.

[InfectiousShadow 10]

Try turning up the aiming deadzone, that will make things more difficult for you.

[nodunit 397]

You can also turn the crosshair off,making it much harder to hit things, you in most cases WILL need to look down your sights especially with some deadzone so your gun isn't centered.

PS stop with the aiming from the hip MW2 BS.

Edited July 4, 2010 by NodUnit

[TillGrave 10]

As I said, putting the game on expert setting removes the hud but does not remedy the fact that you can shoot perfect groups without looking down the sights. A feat at home in a dream world or some arcade. I'm not going to make my turning and viewing sloppy to try and simulate a basic reality. Even that still wouldn't work once settled into a position. Shots should be spraying every which way. Expert setting doesn't remedy this at all. It merely removes the aiming dot which doesn't stop you approximating your first shot to get on target with nicely grouped successive shots anyway. It's such a mind numbingly basic fundamental requirement of shooting it's inexcusable to get it wrong. Yeah it's a game but it's touted as a simulation and it certainly has quality simulation specs... Not being forced to aim down the sights is tantamount to a driving simulation where cars can't lose traction. I can hardly believe this. The rest of the game may be epic but when something so fundamental isn't enforced it really goes down the toilet big time for me. It annoys me so much I bothered to weed out this forum and actually say something about it. You can cover all manner or variables and get your engine humming nicely but for goodness sake put the wheels on properly. I'm disgusted that something so simple could be hashed up so badly. Needless to say I doubt I'll be playing this game. Thank goodness for demos.

You know what else is "unrealistic"? 3rd person view! I mean, you have to be almost dead or having an out-of-body experience to see yourself from the outside! And this game calls itself a "simulation" :rolleyes:

[Elric de Melnibone 10]

TillGrave wins this thread.

[Kristian 47]

C'mon guys... :j:

The most unrealistic thing in ArmA2 is the steering wheel!111one

I mean you'r hands aren't moving it, what is? Zomg Imma uninstall nao...

Is this thread serious? :p

Its like calling every FPS game unrealistic because you can see your weapon in it

[TillGrave 10]

TillGrave wins this thread.

[Second 0]

None of these things remedy the fact you can shoot effective tight groups without needing to look down the sights once set in position. Take the constructive criticism with some dignity and get it fixed. I'm just an average joe who recently tried the game and bothered to point out the short fall, not some embarrasingly blind fanboy. You bet I'm outa here. When Bohemia fix this basic shooting 101 issue I'll buy their game. No business get's anywhere by ignoring their consumers. Unlike yourself Bohemia has taken constructive criticism as I've read from the reviews of OFP and Arma 1. It's a good thing for business that you don't represent the company, clearly.

I just don't understand what you gain from it? Mostly target moves and anyways will still be better by looking thru ironsights or optics than blaze without aiming. And we had requirement that you don't have to do nothing to your gun once you have achieved proper firing position. You shoot, weapon pops up, comes down and is still pointing to exactly same spot on target as it was before you squeezed the trigger in the first place. Even after reloading weapon was expected to point pretty much to spot we were about to shoot at.

Sure whole ArmA-series is quite rubbish in my books by now, but still i don't see this being so much of an problem.