Why is this game not more popular?

[Zipper5 74]

I think that if people started to encrypt their releases they would eventually be shunned more than those who don't. Almost everyone actively modding BIS' games one way or another has learned from someone else, be it their released work, or tutorials they made, or what have you, myself included. So if people were to start making their work inaccessible, well, that would be a major step backwards, and I can only hope that they are boycotted for it.

[Defunkt 431]

The copyright in missions ought to be accorded equal respect with that observed for any other custom content, it's all the result of somebody's care and effort and what happens to it is every bit as much the creator's concern. Taking somebody's mission, changing it and then re-releasing it (as this is interpreted for other add-ons, that would include private releases) without permission should be considered just as unacceptable as it is for somebody's model or map. I can well understand mission makers not wanting to release their work into an environment where everybody assumes it's then theirs to futz at will with. As for shunning encrypted work, do you shun models that are binarised simply because aspiring modellers cannot learn from them?

[NoRailgunner 0]

Lol Herbal Influence again you are watching only the "big" numbers and still refusing to see how many players are playing per server. Dont you see how fast the numbers of players drop down?

These statistics don't show how good or bad the game is.

There are many reasons why people like to play Arma2 only with mods/addons. Hint: Sound, Flares, AI...:rolleyes:

Just wonder if BIS devs have and use tools where they can see + monitor issues and problems with AI? I've read that TotalWar devs have created something similar for their latest game.

[bangtail 0]

Sharing is the mother of all communities ?

Yes.. but back on topic

What a ridiculous thing to say.

[dmarkwick 261]

What a ridiculous thing to say.

It happens a lot here.

[NeMeSiS 11]

It happens a lot here.

Sharing or ridiculous things being said?

[bangtail 0]

Sharing or ridiculous things being said?

Lol

/10 chars

[dmarkwick 261]

Sharing or ridiculous things being said?

Both. As ever, there are obvious exceptions ;)

[cri74 10]

hmmm.. well..with the problems we got on servers, ppl joining just to destroy the game i can see why you want to keep everything private. However.. is that the way to build a community.

Saying that my comment is "What a ridiculous thing to say" i hope you took the time to see what we are about ? At least we are trying to make the game more popular by makeing the game and contributers(mission makers, mod makers etc) more accesible to the common player. If not, then please click on my signature that says " its not about what the commuinty can do for you, its about what YOU can to for the community"

Tell me how makeing everything private makes the game more popular pls?

What we are experiencing on servers TV2 are ppl just joining to make the servers unplayable by hacks and destroying assets.. that may be one of your arguments, feel free to use it as your argument. BUT listen.. it does'nt really help now does it?

Edited February 5, 2010 by cri74

[bangtail 0]

hmmm.. well..with the problems we got on servers, ppl joining just to destroy the game i can see why you want to keep everything private. However.. is that the way to build a community.

Saying that my comment is "What a ridiculous thing to say" i hope you took the time to see what we are about ? At least we are trying to make the game more popular by makeing the game and contributers(mission makers, mod makers etc) more accesible to the common player. If not, then please click on my signature that says " its not about what the commuinty can do for you, its about what YOU can to for the community"

Tell me how makeing everything private makes the game more popular pls?

What we are experiencing on servers TV2 are ppl just joining to make the servers unplayable by hacks and destroying assets.. that may be one of your arguments, feel free to use it as your argument. BUT listen.. it does'nt really help now does it?

It doesn't affect me, I have my toolbox (ArmA2) and I have my group of dedicated players.

I'm not suggesting how you should govern yourselves, I was simply stating how we govern ourselves.

[cri74 10]

Right O'

on topic then :P

I hope you consider releasing the material and let others enjoy the fruit of your work.. im sure, or at least im sure(cus im looking for a dedicated writer of missions), that by realesing the your efforts would bring more players/contributers to the game thus giving the game more reasons to play it :D

[Gen_Protection 10]

Interesting thread.

Iv'e been addicted to this series since the earliest release of OFP all those years ago.

I have a suspicion that one of the issues which holds back ArmaII popularity is actually also one of its strongest points too. A double edged sword.

The issue... MODS.... Gasp, horror... stand by for flaming but wait and read on. THEN reply.

First off let me make something REAL clear. I totally want Modding of Arma to thrive, I have the utmost respect for the sheer effort, skill, and dedication to all the guys who put shed loads of hours into some utterly amazing addons/ mods to this game. Long may it continue!

BUT and it's a big but.... Look at it from a newcomers point of view.. Almost every online game they want to join requires them search for an addon, then download it, and then return to a server before they can even play one game. Then to make it harder they may have to Download teamspeak or whatever, and then they may not be able to join in progress but have to further wait for the next restart. And then they may join a server where no-one even speaks to each other. Is it any wonder a lot of new players fade out of the scene so quickly (and tell their mates who then don't buy the game) For all but the most diehard that is a complete pain, and extremely counter productive to gaining more popularity. BUT these great mods are also the lifeblood of Arma as they were for OFP, they increase the quality of the game and they effectively keep the game fresh and more interesting and enjoyable for MUCH much longer than your average retail game.

There needs to be some integrated universal way of getting addons into game.

Let me give you my personal experience in arma1 and I am an addict. It got to point that almost every online game required yet another addon just to play. Downloading 5+ addons a week became totally tedious. It got totally out of hand. Spending every night downloading some change of uniform or whatever just got tedious in the extreme. At times the mods were difficult to find etc etc. Add that to the idiots Realtime building houses etc ontop of players ingame, so trapping them, the TKing that became widespread and the game became just too much of a pain to be bothered with.... and I am an addict!!!!

I have no doubt that good quality mods are critical for the longevity of Arma, what I question is how to make the process of acquiring them painless and straight forward/ integrated. I must add the comment that for Bohemia to not have directly addressed this after almost 8 years does surprise me. I am aware of sickboy's app, but it doesn't appear? to be universal, and is yet another piece of knowledge that a newcomer has to find out about.

Some other stuff I throw into the ring for your comments...

One of the deciding factors on a public server for good game experience, is the ability of someone to step up as a strong leader and actually show some leadership. I have seen this happen on ocassion, and even the rambos began to see how much more enjoyable the game could be if played in organisation and where the teamwork/communication was good. Look how many people in Real life join the forces, look what age they are, they know they are going to get ordered to work as a team, and they still join? The other side effect of this I saw, was that when some loners saw how much more they got out of the game they started asking for nicks etc so they could play with the same outfit again. I have nothing against guys playing for high score/bragging rights etc, but I suspect it is the players who get into team play who continue to support and enjoy the game for much longer, and not get bored. Welcome guys to teamplay servers, show them the light, let them see what they are missing. Ok It's not everyones cup of tea, but without the opportunity to see real teamwork in operation they have no way of knowing what they might actually really enjoy (and be very good at)

The final point I make is quality and thought that goes into missions. Over the years there have been some utterly amazing missions made. There are scripters, mission editors, mod makers etc out there who have done (and continue to do) some pretty darn amazingly clever stuff with OFP/Arma.

But everyone has to start somewhere and there are also some frankly woeful missions out there too. PLEASE PLEASE if you are hosting missions for download, review them, rate them etc. If you make missions PLEASE have a briefing.. If you are bright enough to write missions you can reasonably be expected to write a briefing, even if English not first language use online translator. To sites offering missions for dload.. Please make sure they have been played and what mods they need. The number of missions I have dloaded that reckon no mod needed, only to find a mod is needed is a complete pain.

Its all about making the experience for new players as smooth as is practical. We all know that Arma/OFP is not an average game, and takes more than average time to get the hang of, give newcomers a break they have enough to learn as it is.

Gen

PS I have seen VBS2 and it's quality etc, Bohemia is totally capable of incredible stuff, for me the patching for ArmaII is going down the same route as OFP.. I have seen you guys capability, so for me this says conscious decision to release ARMAII in condition that was NOT good. I wish you would rethink this approach, this dissappoints me on personal level as longterm customer. I want you guys to thrive, not get slated in reviews and damage sales!

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

Personally I think it's the learning curve involved in becoming a proficient player. Particularly in regards to learning all the little nifty tricks as a result of our beloved quirky engine.

Most people I see play who end up stopping simply don't like the slower, more tactical approach the game requires in regards to surviving.

[Honeycutt 10]

I agree with whoever said MODS makes trying to play online a real headache. We all accept ACE is the almost the mandatory MOD but keeping ACE and all the other MODS up to date is a nightmare. And with ACE you need to use 6updater for that (not easy to understand). Just get to a 1.0 version of a MOD and leave it alone.

[Ace42 10]

All your "enhancements" will do nothing but attract exactly the kind of player that we DO NOT want here.

Go play BC2 as that sounds like EXACTLY the experience you are looking for.

Is it me, or is it ironic that in a thread discussing why Arma2 is unpopular there is a zealot telling people to play other games?

I can tell you why I haven't played Arma 2 in months: Bugs and performance. As someone astutely pointed out, the problem was a lack of "polish polish polish."

The single player campaign was rough and buggy; despite my rig running BF2 maxed out with it being super-slick and sexy, I have to make Arma2 look like OFP for it to play tolerably; I had to use cheats to end rounds where the scripting routinely failed, and it seemed like I'd barely complete a mission before the next one bugged out. The AI was diabolical, with my squad being unable to walk down a street without getting confused and one of them trekking around the opposite side of a building to everyone else; not to mention the enemies being idiotic, but capable of lazer-beam like accuracy while your team of elite special forces seem unable to crack off a single shot. The weapons were all interchangeable, and thus boring, making armament selection arbitrary at best and meaningless at worst. The controls were convoluted and generally meaningless; dozens of menus of commands which have little to no effect on gameplay - suppress didn't even work, and who cares what formation your squad is in when they're going to get head-shot by some little dot on the horizon anyway, thereby ending your game? "Copy my stance" ? "Go prone" ? Redundant nonsense, the bots should be smart enough to take cover themselves and get down if lead is flying, etc.

And three buttons just for crouch / prone / stand? Did the developers not check out BF2, etc? You can do it with *two* keys and it will STILL be more ergonomic... And that's the case with the whole game through, with humvees that are a liability to drive, to having to use a constantly shifting drop-down menu to enter or exit vehicles or open gates, to having to navigate dozens of number-based sub-menus to access commands that should be really straight-forward. Loading up an APC with munitions (AT gear, ammo, sniper rifles, etc) is a mission of itself; and try to order the generation of units in the campaign and you just end up with a load of turkeys running around like fools unable to mount a truck without getting run over.

And don't get me started on the graphics; to even get the game moving at a decent speed you need to turn everything down, and even with stuff turned up high it looks amateurish; blocky, with buildings clipping left right and centre, iron sights that are so big and ugly that you're better off hip-firing and using the tracer to walk fire onto targets than actually aiming; and distant targets are just grainy dots, so firefights tend to be "whoever can determine if it's a friendly or not" rather than any sort of contest of skill.

Quite simply, BIS were too ambitious and rather than release a more realistic product with polish; they released a mess that has alienated anyone who isn't a hardcore fan since the OFP days. And as *I* am an OFP fan from the old days and I'm saying this, you can see how deep this cuts.

I could forgive crude graphics if the gameplay was smooth; it isn't. I could forgive counter-intuitive controls if the commands were meaningful and effective; they aren't. I could forgive an unplayable single-player mode if the multiplayer content was stream-lined and engaging; it isn't. I could forgive terrible AI if the gun-play was exciting and immersive; it isn't.

I could forgive a lot, but given that it has been 10 years since OFP and Arma2 appears to have made next to no progress whatsoever, it's understandable that people are unwilling to "work" at the game.

So, do I resent buying the game? Nah, it wasn't that expensive, and there were some enjoyable aspects to it; but I spend more time checking here and the main page to see if 1.06 is out and if it has fixed my major bug-bears than actually playing the game. Perhaps if they made it run without a CD in, like the latest BF2 patch did for that game), I might be tempted to click the icon and start her up now and then on a whim; but in the mean-time, nope.

[mosh 0]

Perhaps if they made it run without a CD in, like the latest BF2 patch did for that game), I might be tempted to click the icon and start her up now and then on a whim; but in the mean-time, nope.

I guess you haven't installed 1.05 patch yet...

[Ace42 10]

I guess you haven't installed 1.05 patch yet...

It's been months since I've played; I think I installed it and found that the single-player campaign STILL reached a crashing halt in the same places, and promptly forgot. I guess I will be giving Arma2 some sympathy play-time afterall then ;)

[mic1402 10]

ace,

1. bf2 is a old game.

2.i have a lousy nivida 8500 grathics card and i have good grathics with good preformance generaly.

3. haven't got far in the singleplayer campaign but haven't encounterd many bugs, and most bugs have been fixed.

4. i don't know about yours but my stand\crouch\prone buttons are pge up and pge down. what 3rd one?

5. i don't have any problem with the controls.

6.driving isn't THAT hard.

7.number based sub menus work okay.

8. on high the grathics look amazing! clipping? amateurish? lol i think we might be playing different games.

9.the iron sights are the right size.

10.bots grainy dots? get closer.

"I could forgive crude graphics if the gameplay was smooth; it isn't. I could forgive counter-intuitive controls if the commands were meaningful and effective; they aren't. I could forgive an unplayable single-player mode if the multiplayer content was stream-lined and engaging; it isn't. I could forgive terrible AI if the gun-play was exciting and immersive; it isn't."

sorry you feel that way, since most of the points stated there are opinons and a different for everyone, (grathics some say bad some say good) i'll take the last points.

terrible a.i??? not immersive??? set up a small battle in the editor and set diffculty on expert and tell me thats not immersive!

[rick rawlings 2]

For me, the popularity of this game rests on the same basic issues that it always has, from Operation Flashpoint through Red Hammer and Resistance up through the present day:

Clunky interface: When we got Operation Flashpoint, my buddies and I said "Oh, it looks like this game was made in the eighties." When we got Arma II, we said "Oh, they've updated it. Now it looks like it was made in the nineties." Or, have you ever tried to use a ladder in a hurry, but couldn't get your cursor to be right where it thinks the rung should be, whether or not that lines up with the graphic, or had a bracket menu that wouldn't cycle properly or even come up at all? My friends and I, who have come up from Pong all the way through Pac Man fever up till today still had trouble figuring out how to get the chopper in the campaign to go where we wanted it to. Most people, right or wrong, expect more polish for $50 bucks.

Bugs: Most people will jump right into the campaign, figuring it to be the meat and potatoes of the game. Imagine how much fun we were having when the obstacle course in the very first mission wouldn't trigger properly for about 5 tries. Other issues like getting stuck climbing up in mid air in the red brick house and not being able to get out are not game breakers, but certainly contribute to that "Why am I paying money to be this frustrated?" feeling.

Implementation: There's an incredible amount of features in this game, almost none of which run hassle-free. The inertia system is a great idea, but it has the un-intended side effect of creating comedy when you try to get through a door or take a few steps in an eloquent manner. Turning around in a hallway with a couple of guys can be fatally difficult. Had they made the player just a grunt, you could argue that regular green infantry might get tripped up like that, but a Force Recon squad? The civillian conversation system is a great idea, but when the old woman tells us that she has just seen a team of special forces operators in town and I'm like, "Lady, that's us. You just watched us walk over here." it loses some of the specialness. Which leads me to:

The laugh/cry voice system/dialogue: Walking up behind my buddies who I had convinced to get the game, I was presented with a greeting dialogue option, so I clicked on it only to be confronted by a "HI. there." All the effort that BIS put into this game over the years was largely undermined as I was wiping soda off my monitor after that little exchange.

There aren't many game breaking points to be found for me, but I can certainly see why someone new to the franchise would be put off by them and, truth be told, despite having purchased everything but Queen's Gambit and being a mighty fan of Operation Flashpoint, I can really only half-heartedly try to convince them to hang with it.

I wish BIS all the best and will most likely continue to buy their products, I just wish they would get some of these issues in hand to expand the player base. It's hard to constantly put up with a 200 ping trip to Europe for a little BerZerk.

RR

[Gen_Protection 10]

Perhaps it might help if some of the amazing mission makers in the community put together a fairly comprehensive set of missions that more fully ease the new player into this "game". A starter pack if you like. With a bit of luck this may get new players more comfortable with what the heck the need to know. At least that would be one hurdle out of the way? Personally I think the sp missions that ship with ArmaII are too minimalisitic, and barely cover what is the core knowledge needed to get an early fast start to getting into the "game". Ease the learning curve, make it much more comprehensive, and gradual. Might help?

Have to agree that encryption of missions is in my opinion not the way to go. But I CAN see how it would be very annoying to spend months writing/tuning a mission only for it to be ripped and altered without any credit etc. Perhaps the way to go is some sort of embedded author sig or some such? Not an easy one that. The big one for me as an aspiring scripter is with encrypted missions how do I learn new things. However it should be the mission makers choice whether they share their "secrets", it is their hard work after all.

Must say it is a shame that mission makers have problems getting enough people to test out their missions. All I can add to that is as a keen coop player I would be willing to join in testing coop mp missions. I have a reasonable bit of spare time at the minute, a 10meg connection, and live in UK, gimme a shout if I can help out. Teamspeak/ Ventrilo/ whatever I can sort it for online testing as required.

There does seem to be a dilution of player nos per server now compared with hayday of OFP, perhaps its simply due to such a large no of servers.

Whats this shambles that is my AI medics. I can be right beside a medic calling for help and numerous patches later they still ignore my requests, thats SO annoying and was not a problem in OFP RES etc? Ai vehicle pathfinding always seemed to bit a bit IFFY, but for sure it's at the worst level since OFP was released. I can see this being very off putting for those new to the scene, it drives me nuts, and I am a die hard "fan" of the game.

As Rick said in the prev post POLISH POLISH POLISH, I say Czech, Czech Czech ! My opinion of the Campaign is that from memory it has more glitches than any of Campaigns that were shipped with OFP Res etc. Shame and counter productive. Maybe its back to the same problem as user mission makers have... a lack of testers to fine tune before public release?

Gen

[bangtail 0]

Is it me, or is it ironic that in a thread discussing why Arma2 is unpopular there is a zealot telling people to play other games?

I can tell you why I haven't played Arma 2 in months: Bugs and performance. As someone astutely pointed out, the problem was a lack of "polish polish polish."

The single player campaign was rough and buggy; despite my rig running BF2 maxed out with it being super-slick and sexy, I have to make Arma2 look like OFP for it to play tolerably; I had to use cheats to end rounds where the scripting routinely failed, and it seemed like I'd barely complete a mission before the next one bugged out. The AI was diabolical, with my squad being unable to walk down a street without getting confused and one of them trekking around the opposite side of a building to everyone else; not to mention the enemies being idiotic, but capable of lazer-beam like accuracy while your team of elite special forces seem unable to crack off a single shot. The weapons were all interchangeable, and thus boring, making armament selection arbitrary at best and meaningless at worst. The controls were convoluted and generally meaningless; dozens of menus of commands which have little to no effect on gameplay - suppress didn't even work, and who cares what formation your squad is in when they're going to get head-shot by some little dot on the horizon anyway, thereby ending your game? "Copy my stance" ? "Go prone" ? Redundant nonsense, the bots should be smart enough to take cover themselves and get down if lead is flying, etc.

And three buttons just for crouch / prone / stand? Did the developers not check out BF2, etc? You can do it with *two* keys and it will STILL be more ergonomic... And that's the case with the whole game through, with humvees that are a liability to drive, to having to use a constantly shifting drop-down menu to enter or exit vehicles or open gates, to having to navigate dozens of number-based sub-menus to access commands that should be really straight-forward. Loading up an APC with munitions (AT gear, ammo, sniper rifles, etc) is a mission of itself; and try to order the generation of units in the campaign and you just end up with a load of turkeys running around like fools unable to mount a truck without getting run over.

And don't get me started on the graphics; to even get the game moving at a decent speed you need to turn everything down, and even with stuff turned up high it looks amateurish; blocky, with buildings clipping left right and centre, iron sights that are so big and ugly that you're better off hip-firing and using the tracer to walk fire onto targets than actually aiming; and distant targets are just grainy dots, so firefights tend to be "whoever can determine if it's a friendly or not" rather than any sort of contest of skill.

Quite simply, BIS were too ambitious and rather than release a more realistic product with polish; they released a mess that has alienated anyone who isn't a hardcore fan since the OFP days. And as *I* am an OFP fan from the old days and I'm saying this, you can see how deep this cuts.

I could forgive crude graphics if the gameplay was smooth; it isn't. I could forgive counter-intuitive controls if the commands were meaningful and effective; they aren't. I could forgive an unplayable single-player mode if the multiplayer content was stream-lined and engaging; it isn't. I could forgive terrible AI if the gun-play was exciting and immersive; it isn't.

I could forgive a lot, but given that it has been 10 years since OFP and Arma2 appears to have made next to no progress whatsoever, it's understandable that people are unwilling to "work" at the game.

So, do I resent buying the game? Nah, it wasn't that expensive, and there were some enjoyable aspects to it; but I spend more time checking here and the main page to see if 1.06 is out and if it has fixed my major bug-bears than actually playing the game. Perhaps if they made it run without a CD in, like the latest BF2 patch did for that game), I might be tempted to click the icon and start her up now and then on a whim; but in the mean-time, nope.

Zealot? Hardly, I've been plenty critical of BIS when I felt it was warranted.

Comments like "despite my rig running BF2 maxed out with it being super-slick and sexy" simply highlight your total ignorance as you are comparing Arma 2 to a game released in 2005.

The same uninformed BS from people who typically have between 5-25 posts gets a little old when you've been reading it for several months.

If you aren't happy with Arma 2, then move on to something you enjoy.

Nobody here is going to care about the fact that you don't play or the reasons why.

Happy trails.

Edited February 7, 2010 by BangTail

[An Fiach 10]

1. Bugs

2. No good MP missions out of the box

3. No dedicated server support

4. Horrible net code resulting in high pings and higher bandwidth consumption

Players get bored/frustrated before they even consider exploring the massive depth of this game. Only those of us truly interested in what this game has to offer in the long term stick around and we know it before we purchase the game.

[Ragingbear505 10]

Am I seriously the only one who has relatively no issues with this game? I play multiplayer with relative ease and have even had some great matches on public servers, I don't have that great of a rig and I can turn most settings to high with view distance to full on Utes and all custom maps but on Chernarus I have to set that down to 4k. The AI bugs I've experienced have been trivial and easily corrected by just sending the order one more time and the worst campaign experience I ever had was having to restart Bitter Chill once. I mean Armed Assault was a total bugfest but I felt like Arma 2 had fixed more or less all the issues plaguing the first one.

[-Total- 0]

1. Bugs

Show me a game that doesn't have bugs. IL-2 Sturmovik has been in development for 9 years and still has bugs.

2. No good MP missions out of the box

Define "good"? What's "good" is interpretive to each individual.

3. No dedicated server support

uhm - http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA:_Dedicated_Server#Downloads Plently of dedicated server support.

4. Horrible net code resulting in high pings and higher bandwidth consumption

Don't have that problem on my server unless someone is trying to connect from the other side of the ocean. In which case, their ping may be around 200, but their desync will be too high to be an effective player. There's ALOT of info being transmitted to the player. Every obkect has a state (detryoed, knocked over, damaged, etc) and ALL of that has to be transmitted to the player. I'd say any netcode that can handle that in any capacity is doing pretty good.

Players get bored/frustrated before they even consider exploring the massive depth of this game. Only those of us truly interested in what this game has to offer in the long term stick around and we know it before we purchase the game.

We all know it's a niche genre. It's not a twitch kill shooter like L4D. It's not a console game ported to PC (MW2, BFBC2). While there's really nothing else that can compare to it, it's still not for the majority.

[Bulldogs 10]

Yep. Basically comes down to bad reviews (due to a buggy release, which has been fixd since, watch the Gametrailers.com review), no advertising, and many people are too impatient for it.

Many people load up the game, then either run out and get killed in an instant, or they try to play slowly and cautiously then get bored of it and then run out and get themselves killed.