What the heck am I doing wrong?

[highwayhigh 10]

Okay, so I've played first person shooters throughout the years. I am a big fan of more "tactical" first-person shooters. Examples are Rainbow Six Vegas series, and Modern Warfare 1 and 2. Obviously there are vast differences between these and such a hardcore milsim such as ArmA 2. But I am having an awful time trying to play this game. I have mainly dabbled in SP mode for now, until I get more proficient and move on to MP.

I play on Regular, for reference. But the VAST majority of time I get smoked by the enemy before I even remotely calculate where they are. I always scan hilltops, trees, rocks, and buildings. But it seems that they can see through 100% opaque shrubbery, trees, building, etc. They always know exactly where I am LONG before I can ever determine there is even an enemy. I have played the regular campaign and the SEAL Team SIX mod campaign. On both, through hours of frustrating play, my tactics have been reduced to: Stay standing, run in the open, get shot at and spin around trying to find the target 400 yards away prone behind a tree, die, reload, crawl back out and try eliminate said target. Rinse and repeat. I have tried staying prone, I have tried being insanely tactical, I have tried everything. Is this just the nature of the game? I mean, I am a US Marine, so even somewhat attempting to use the tactics I've learned through real life training, leads to nothing but failure. I just don't understand. Even hitting prone and going as slow as possible in to a known hostile situation leads me dead, 9 times out of 10. Not to mention the friendly AI is just god awful. I was doing the sniper mission (mission 2) on the Seal Team SIX campaign and my spotter is standing tall at the crest of a hill, catching enemy fire. It just seems there is absolutely no possible way to use stealth and catch the enemy off guard. No matter what they see you before it's even physically possible for you to see them. And they usually decimate you before you can even actually see them.

So enough rambling. Mainly, am I missing something? Is this just a "learn to play" sort of situation? Or does SP just suck? Anyways, thanks in advance for the help.

[gulag 10]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1540540&postcount=687

use this as reference, and forget "run in the open", if you are U.S. Marine should know that.;)

.....and welcome.

[jasonnoguchi 11]

That's my experience when I first started playing ArmA1. Now, I pretty much kick AI ass. You need time to get this game right. Go through the basic missions, finish the default campaign and you would pretty much figure it all out. There is absolutely no need to adjust any settings or mod anything to win in the default campaign.

And yes, like in RL, planning how to achieve your mission from your map BEFORE actually doing it is KEY to success. If you hadn't been using the map at all, then I would think it hard for you to complete missions in ArmA2.

One way I trained myself in ArmA1 (and even in ArmA2) is to keep playing armory. It throws a lot of random situations at you and rewards you with some unlockables when you succeed at them.

Edited January 21, 2010 by jasonnoguchi

[Zipper5 74]

Do not go into a game like ArmA II, or even ArmA & OFP for that matter, expecting something similar to RSV or COD titles. Those are FPS games, ArmA II/ArmA/OFP are military simulators. Their style of gameplay is too different.

One thing about those other titles is that they're pick up and play titles. Anyone can do it if they've played even just one game before. BIS' games are not like that, not by a long shot. I remember when I first started playing OFP way back when, and getting my ass handed to me. Now, I know almost every trick in the book, lol. It just takes practice. ;)

[mrcash2009 0]

All of the above realy. Also check out your AI level settings you can change it so they are not super snipers in your profile, you might want to check out some AI mods (ZEUS AI for example) in the mods section and the details they have about your profile AI level settings, if your using stock settings you may find its a little too easy for them to hit you and find you.

Maybe introducing mods at this stage may confuse things but AI accuracy settings can be changed in you config settings to lower it a little.

That said the rest of it is down to planning, I do a lot of prone scouting and then moving, I use a lot of "Stay crouched" so teams scoot crouched as well, I almost always end up using that. Set a member to scan horizon and put him on point, and also sometimes as your moving "slowly" set your men as you wish formation wise but set them "advance" so they are ahead of you at times.

It seems like you need to kill any ref to other games, use your own personal knowledge literaly but still mix it that its a game AI and also fiddle with your AI level settings in your profile.

Edited January 21, 2010 by mrcash2009

[dmarkwick 261]

Okay, so I've played first person shooters throughout the years. I am a big fan of more "tactical" first-person shooters. Examples are Rainbow Six Vegas series, and Modern Warfare 1 and 2. Obviously there are vast differences between these and such a hardcore milsim such as ArmA 2. But I am having an awful time trying to play this game. I have mainly dabbled in SP mode for now, until I get more proficient and move on to MP.

I play on Regular, for reference. But the VAST majority of time I get smoked by the enemy before I even remotely calculate where they are. I always scan hilltops, trees, rocks, and buildings. But it seems that they can see through 100% opaque shrubbery, trees, building, etc. They always know exactly where I am LONG before I can ever determine there is even an enemy. I have played the regular campaign and the SEAL Team SIX mod campaign. On both, through hours of frustrating play, my tactics have been reduced to: Stay standing, run in the open, get shot at and spin around trying to find the target 400 yards away prone behind a tree, die, reload, crawl back out and try eliminate said target. Rinse and repeat. I have tried staying prone, I have tried being insanely tactical, I have tried everything. Is this just the nature of the game? I mean, I am a US Marine, so even somewhat attempting to use the tactics I've learned through real life training, leads to nothing but failure. I just don't understand. Even hitting prone and going as slow as possible in to a known hostile situation leads me dead, 9 times out of 10. Not to mention the friendly AI is just god awful. I was doing the sniper mission (mission 2) on the Seal Team SIX campaign and my spotter is standing tall at the crest of a hill, catching enemy fire. It just seems there is absolutely no possible way to use stealth and catch the enemy off guard. No matter what they see you before it's even physically possible for you to see them. And they usually decimate you before you can even actually see them.

So enough rambling. Mainly, am I missing something? Is this just a "learn to play" sort of situation? Or does SP just suck? Anyways, thanks in advance for the help.

I think this is a common perception for newcomers to the game. It is hard, and it does require a new gamestyle to accomplish gameplay. If I could offer only one single piece of advice about how to play, it would be this:

Play the game as if you really were there, and you really would die.

Luckily I'm not restricted to just one piece of advice :D

I guess it's all about how much you know about an area, and making adjustments for that knowledge. In most of my own scenarios, I know very little about the area I'm moving into, so I need to creep about and make desicions about what path I take. Follow treelines, crouch, creep up to brows of hills, scrutinize every new horizon and landmass, beware of dead ground, use dead ground, and make use of your AI commands like hold fire (to stop them instantly firing at distant enemy thus alerting them) and stop command (so you can creep up to observation points alone and make lengthy observations) and keep an ear on what your squad members are spotting and immediately make an assessment of how to continue. Don't be afraid to change your plans. Always move toward new cover, never just wander into open areas unless it's unavoidable.

[Master gamawa 0]

In Arma, 'camping' is a virtue. Move slowly, wait, scan, take two steps, look again, be alert, be afraid, be vigilant.

Use binoculars, hide, take advantage of elevation, grass, rocks. Cover and concealment. Know how the enemy moves, calculate how many enemies will be able to locate your position immediately after you shoot. If they are more than three or four you need a better plan. Single those fuckers out!

Use the "hold fire" command for your squad and wait for the majority of them to report "enemy in sight" That means they are locked on to the enemy and that they are going to unleash hell as soon as you tell them to open fire.

Don't be afraid to retreat to a safe location when it becomes really frantic. I know it doesn't sound very heroic but it will keep you alive.

[sic-disaster 311]

Okay, so I've played first person shooters throughout the years. I am a big fan of more "tactical" first-person shooters. Examples are Rainbow Six Vegas series, and Modern Warfare 1 and 2.

This made me shiver.

There is nothing tactical about CoD, and not about Vegas either...

Vegas isnt even a true Rainbow Six game, but a game so dumbed down to cater to the console crowd they shouldve just called it Hollywood instead...

Hearing the word Vegas still makes me throw up in my mouth after all these years since it and Lockdown destroyed my beloved Rainbow Six series...

Which were the true tactical CQB sims.

[Leon86 13]

+1, ravenshield was the last good rainbow 6 game

[jasonnoguchi 11]

Don't be afraid to retreat to a safe location when it becomes really frantic. I know it doesn't sound very heroic but it will keep you alive.

I totally agree. It makes no sense to put up a "final stand" against overwhelming odds. If I find myself in a situation where my position is going to be overrun, I will retreat and run like hell with the remains of my team mates to the nearest settlement we can find and then garrison ourselves in one of those walkable buildings and aim at the doorway. This is the only way to beat overwhelming odds. One at a time through an open doorway.

+ 1 SIC-Disaster. COD and R6V are more arcadey than tactical. Anything that allows you to jump shoot and with contact ranges consistently within 50m is arcade. Period. There is no way you can get instantly used to the style of play in ArmA2 if you are used to those styles of play. To quote an old game, ArmA2 is more like Ghost Recon 1 style of play.

Edited January 21, 2010 by jasonnoguchi

[EDcase 87]

Welcome Highwayhigh,

Is your game patched to version 1.05?

Don't be discouraged. It will take some time to get used to and spotting enemies will become easier. You can also learn to command your AI team to do the scouting ahead ;)

Edited January 21, 2010 by EDcase

[maturin 12]

I always scan hilltops, trees, rocks, and buildings. But it seems that they can see through 100% opaque shrubbery, trees, building, etc. They always know exactly where I am LONG before I can ever determine there is even an enemy.

First of all, the enemy can't see through opaque foliage (glitchiness aside). Bushes, walls, and trunks reliably block their line of site though they will predict your position and suppress you. Much to our chagrin, tall grass and some canopy leaves have a minimal concealment effect. They do, however, have machine eyes and can see you easily among a hundred tree trunks if you are not immediately behind one.

But if you're using tactics you learned as a marine, shouldn't you not be firing except from cover anyway? The open map and slow pace of the game often lead to firefights in open fields that no self-respecting soldier would get himself caught in IRL. The trick is to get behind a big 'ol house and make the AI move first. Once they're running around, your AI snipers will probably get almost as many kills as you. To keep them alive, you need to know about the combat and stance modes in the 7 menu. Most important of all, so watch those videos. Medics heal and through the miscellaneous 6 menu if you lack LOS to the casualty.

But really, friendly AI default is better than hostile, which means their spotting abilities are superior. So you should usually get the drop in the enemy. Better situational awareness in combat comes with time once you become comfortable with the map and even he variety of bushes. If the enemy is shooting you up, move something and they will track you based on your speed when you disappeared, so if you change course they are stymied. And if you don't shoot so much, you won't be a target. The AI DOES have an unfair ability to pinpoint the position of an attacker based on the sound of the gun.

[nettrucker 142]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

I'm playing BIS games since 2001 and when I first started I had to learn how to play this game and getting used to the fact that the enemy AI is really badass. They kick your butt in a "Detroit second" which I never experienced in other games so far. At the same time the AI sometimes behave also stupid. I'm using a lot of units when making my own missions just trying to simulate battles more up to company size rather than squad sizes.

Not withstanding the use of high amount of units i'm fairly able to accomplish the missions because I stay in cover.

Just don't give up, in case you get your butt handed over too much, means usually that your tactics might not be the right one to apply. Change tactics and try out different things. If you play it as if you would behave in a real combat situation you will have less difficulties to beat the enemy AI and accomplish the mission.

It's the most challenging game I ever played and I'm never getting tired.:D

Cheers

[walker 0]

Hi highwayhigh

Welcome to the ArmA community.

The ArmA II learning curve is very steep and you need to throw out all that negative training you got in other FPS anything you learned in them was probably wrong :( . As others have said the basic rule to begin with is crawl; once you have mastered crawling you can then graduate to the basic "I am up, he sees me, I am down" bounds. I got so tired of telling New Guys all this that I wrote a section in the BIS Wiki so start here:

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA_II_Hints_and_Tips

Surprised you have not got used to ArmA already as ArmA is the same Real Virtuality Engine that you use in VBS which has been the standard USMC virtual training package for almost a decade; and is now the Defacto training tool for all NATO. They all chose the Real Virtuality Engine precisely because it is so hard that it teaches you to stop being an FPS numpty. I am guessing you are new in the marines or some how were not exposed to it. Either way you will find a fair number of USMC guys in the community as well as many other serving and former soldiers from various nations.

Incedentaly you will want to read the ArmA II bible.

http://ttp2.dslyecxi.com/

You may find its content somewhat useful and perhaps familiar in parts.

Zeus may well be running some more training days if you want to join in.

Kind Regards walker

Edited January 21, 2010 by walker

[katipo66 94]

Hey highwayhigh, i think the biggest difference is the distance, and very open world... the open spaces has evened it out somewhat for the AI... this is probably the first game i played where binoculars were actually useful.

This made me shiver.

There is nothing tactical about CoD, and not about Vegas either...

Vegas isnt even a true Rainbow Six game, but a game so dumbed down to cater to the console crowd they shouldve just called it Hollywood instead...

COD on LAN with 6 players requires a lot of tactics!

CODs a great game! i play both every day :)

[highwayhigh 10]

Wow, a great deal of positive feedback. Thank you all! I am pretty impressed by the community of this game. I expected a lot of "l2play newb." I suppose it just is an entirely different style of game and I need to unlearn all the old bad habits. I suppose I just need more patience and situational awareness. I suppose in time I will begin to adapt. Thank you all a ton. I definitely will do a lot more tweaking with team commands. I guess I haven't even begun to explore that aspect of the game. Thank you all again for the advice and help. I suppose tonight I'll give it another go and hopefully avoid the constant die/reload cycle.

Obviously MP is a whole new animal that I'll probably wait to tackle until I'm better at other aspects. Would you guys reccomend that? Also would it be wise to tackle the original campaign before moving on to user campaign's such as Sick1's? Thanks again guys. I look forward to getting out there on the battlefield with you guys.

Also Walker, I'm not new in the Marines. Wrapping up a five year enlistment next month. Served time in Iraq and Afghanistan. The only thing is I am an avionics tech, not a grunt. Granted, I still learned a lot of the basics and fundamentals of infantry and small-unit tactics through early training, it was never advanced much past the fundamentals. Still more than your average joe though.

[Grizzle 0]

I think everyone who has played ARMA felt this way to start. But as others have said, stick with it and you'll do just fine. I am fully adjusted to the game at this point and no longer suffer from the 'death by unseen forces' issue :D

[dmarkwick 261]

I think, to be honest, that ArmA2 isn't all about how you win, it's also about how you lose. I find I get as much enjoyment from losing a mission as winning one, if that makes any sense. Sometimes the mission itself it FUBARed from the beginning and it's just a desperate attempt at survival :D

Recently I've had a great time just trying to stay alive, much less do anything constructive :D

[nettrucker 142]

Hi highwayhigh

what really got me into the BIS games in 2001 was the open world concept which was completely new to me. The absolute freedom to move everywhere you want was fascinating. A buddy of mine introduced OFP to me . . . I watched him play for 3 hours in a raw without annoying myself. I just stared at the screen eyes, ears and mouth wide open after that I exused myself and went to the next shop and bought it . 8 years have passed since then and I'm still fascinated as I was in the beginning. I'm a so called fanboy cough .. ahhh ... disgusting.LOL

I became a member of the forum in 2004 and joined the community. I'm not posting much but always following the news.

I have never been part of such a great community before. What drives most of the people here is the passion we have. A lot of talented people are working continiously on new content. Addons - Mods - Missions you name it. The quality is top notch and I'm very often stunned about the amazing work this community produces. My favourite toys are the usermade Islands. I love them and most of them are outstanding.

There are people who worked on bringing the old OFP content and Armed Assault to Arma II. There is tons of stuff out there. You can play for years and you never get bored. All Addon Mod and mission makers are the reason that this community survived for 8 years. Due to their constant hard work there's always something new to try that keeps this community together and passionate about ArmA. People over here are nice as long as the rules are followed.

Once again welcome to wonderland.

stay tuned

Kind regards

nettrucker

[Thirdup 0]

There's a simple little mission that you can download and run which shows you *exactly* how it tracks you. It's something everyone should run a few times to get a better understanding of the AI.

The MISSION can be found in this old thread (pity it got lost, locked, and forgotten)

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1525272&postcount=17

The mission gives you visual feedback of the AIs knowledge of your position, directly from the nearTargets command. Try it out.

Once you have gained the AIs attention, you should see a white smoke particle surrounded by a red ring. This is the area where the AI actually thinks you are. After some testing with this, it is pretty clear to me that the AI does not have any kind of magical knowledge of the players location.

[nettrucker 142]

Recently I've had a great time just trying to stay alive, much less do anything constructive :D

That happens most of the time to me, enjoying the fact just to stay alive and save my butt.LOL:D

[bezzzy 10]

I don't know if you find this helpful, but mabye you should try some user missions where you don't have to worry about leading your troops. I don't mean go Rambo, but missions where the ai are leading you, such as these http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=93485. Just stick close to your leader, unless you can foretell a stupid mistake they are about to make = p.

[cm. 10]

I don't know if you find this helpful, but mabye you should try some user missions where you don't have to worry about leading your troops. I don't mean go Rambo, but missions where the ai are leading you, such as these http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=93485. Just stick close to your leader, unless you can foretell a stupid mistake they are about to make = p.

That's a very good idea.Make sure you are proficient as a grunt before trying to lead :)

[zoog 18]

Obviously MP is a whole new animal that I'll probably wait to tackle until I'm better at other aspects. Would you guys reccomend that? Also would it be wise to tackle the original campaign before moving on to user campaign's such as Sick1's?

@MP:

It depends, if you are planning to play cooperative missions together against AI and you find yourself a nice server with good people you can learn a lot. Especially if you are also on voice comms like TeamSpeak or Ventrilo

If you want to play against other human players I think you first need to feel comfortable with the controls etc. I haven't played a lot against human players in public servers, but from what I've seen it's pretty different compared to doing solo missions against AI. Humans always act differently than AI. Besides, there are a lot of different player vs player modes like Advance and Secure etc. I'd say, just give it a try, because the tactics that might be useful against AI (like slowly crawling to spot x) might be totally useless against humans.

@campaign:

I'd say, play the ones which you like most. I played about 6 missions of the campaign and then went to Sick's SEAL campaign because I like smaller scale spec ops missions a lot more. The original campaign can also be really hard on your computer, especially later on, when there is a huge amount of AI on the battlefield with combat going on everywhere. This can even slow down very high-end pc's. Custom missions usually don't have a whole war going on in the background between a few factions.

And one general suggestion: if you are able to find the right people ArmA really shines in multiplayer cooperative gameplay where your team "AI" are human players who are able to implement tactics exactly how you want it.

[andersson 285]

One thing that is important, dont shoot as soon as you see an enemy. Thats a bad habit from other games that I see new people do. Try to get as much information as possible before you engage. Maybe its over your head and a silent retreat is better. As soon as you fire a shot all the enemy in the area knows about you. Maybe not your exact loation BUT they have heard a shot + they communicate through radio so if one soldier see you he will tell his group and the group will tell other groups. It doesnt happen instantly and the information is quite limited in the beginning for tha AI but the longer you are fighting that one AI the rest is gaining more accurate info on you and they will attack you back... So take it easy and find a way to be in a better position then the AI with a way out if it gets too hot.