Would it be feasable to eventually add unlimited grass?

[mon_diesle 10]

We all know the problems with no rendered grass at range, but... Maybe years down the road (when PC's might actually be able to handle it), we could see a patch that allows for grass to be rendered (however poorly) at the full 6000 meters that trees are. Is that technically possible to add on?

[rekrul 7]

When you can count grass-straws from 800m and out I guess.

[-=seany=- 5]

to be honest, even if you had a pc that could handle it, I don't think you would notice grass rendered out to 6000 meters. I'd say the max you could see it at would be maybe 500m. Even in the real world, grass (unless its very long) just looks like green ground (eg a texture) after about 500m.

[mon_diesle 10]

Well just for the record, I'm not nit-picking with the every blade of grass thing. My only problem is that some poor sap will be hiding in the bushes, and I pick him off easy as pie from 500m. I would just want something there so that if I'm hiding in bushes here, it is also true there. Does that make any sense?

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 PM ----------

to be honest, even if you had a pc that could handle it, I don't think you would notice grass rendered out to 6000 meters. I'd say the max you could see it at would be maybe 500m. Even in the real world, grass (unless its very long) just looks like green ground (eg a texture) after about 500m.

I thought I covered the PC handling it thing when I said eventually... On the green ground I'm with you, however that would be maintained grass like in your yard. Much, if not all the grass in ArmA 2 is quite long like 2 feet tall.

Edited December 8, 2009 by mon_diesle
wanted to

[maturin 12]

What do you think grass looks like at 6000 meters? It's a brown-green blur like we have now. It would appear completely two dimensional anyways.

What's needed is better, more varied textures at range with a layer that conceals the lower parts of people that is consistent with the actual 3D vegetation sprites in that area.

[kklownboy 43]

What do you think grass looks like at 6000 meters? It's a brown-green blur like we have now. It would appear completely two dimensional anyways.

What's needed is better, more varied textures at range with a layer that conceals the lower parts of people that is consistent with the actual 3D vegetation sprites in that area.

in the latests betas we have a "fix" for AI in the grass at range, they have parts of the body in the "grass".

[galzohar 31]

When did you see a tree from 6000m in this game? I sure as hell never did.

[maturin 12]

in the latests betas we have a "fix" for AI in the grass at range, they have parts of the body in the "grass".

Yeah, but that lowers their image into the simplified LoD terrain while their hitbox remains above ground. It can mess up your sniping, and doesn't reflect the actual varying grass sprites they are lying in. If the image of the ground could come up instead, and exhibit some 2D jagged sprites to reflect the actual tufts of grass, that would be good. It would require a limited grass render calculation where enemies were walking.

[Ish 11]

When did you see a tree from 6000m in this game? I sure as hell never did.

It's possible with view distance fix.. So that it renders everything at whatever distance you have your distance set too.

[Flash Thunder 10]

When did you see a tree from 6000m in this game? I sure as hell never did.

probably with the latest beta patches since they made objects draw as far as your view distance. :p

[Windexglow 10]

There might be some serious limitations from grass rendering ; Rendering isn't instant. Eletricity moves at a certain speed, and all those calculations (even on a graphics card which could support it) would probably slow frame rate down. All those calculations have to be written onto the memory and read afterwards ; once again taking time up.

I've seen a few cool demo engines out there which simulate far away grass very well. It does make a difference.

[rekrul 7]

probably with the latest beta patches since they made objects draw as far as your view distance. :p

Wait, what?!

[KNac 10]

Not all objects and not all objects draw at the same distance, even with last patches. You need distance fix to do that.

[Moosed 10]

It's possible with view distance fix.. So that it renders everything at whatever distance you have your distance set too.

got a link to this fix ?

[johncage 30]

We all know the problems with no rendered grass at range, but... Maybe years down the road (when PC's might actually be able to handle it), we could see a patch that allows for grass to be rendered (however poorly) at the full 6000 meters that trees are. Is that technically possible to add on?

unnecessary. the human eye can't even discern objects that far away so why bother? it'll look like a flat patch of green, like how it currently is.

if you're talking about objects showing up hen you zoom in on it, then that's already possible, just not on this engine.

[mon_diesle 10]

unnecessary. the human eye can't even discern objects that far away so why bother? it'll look like a flat patch of green, like how it currently is.

if you're talking about objects showing up hen you zoom in on it, then that's already possible, just not on this engine.

The second sentence answers my question. Very concise, thank you. You have experience messing with the engine, then?

---------- Post added at 01:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 AM ----------

When did you see a tree from 6000m in this game? I sure as hell never did.

Every increment of the view distance slider reveals more trees all the way up to 6000m. After that, only terrain seems to extend further. Maybe the 6000m is a circumference, instead of a diameter. ie: maybe 6000m view distance is really 3000m out from point of the player's eye. I don't know.

Edited December 9, 2009 by mon_diesle

[SFJackBauer 10]

Well, the naked human eye can't see grass at 500 meters, but what about a human eye dressed with a sniper scope?

I see the distant grass layer is a decent compromise, but what I would like to see is - when you draw up a scope or bino, the grass is rendered only in the magnified portion of terrain where you are looking at.

[IronTrooper 0]

Well, the naked human eye can't see grass at 500 meters, but what about a human eye dressed with a sniper scope?

I see the distant grass layer is a decent compromise, but what I would like to see is - when you draw up a scope or bino, the grass is rendered only in the magnified portion of terrain where you are looking at.

The thing is, that this magnified area could be pretty large. There are many kinds of scopes, and with a small zoom it could mean lots of grass.

[galzohar 31]

Every increment of the view distance slider reveals more trees all the way up to 6000m. After that, only terrain seems to extend further. Maybe the 6000m is a circumference, instead of a diameter. ie: maybe 6000m view distance is really 3000m out from point of the player's eye. I don't know.

At least with the current version objects don't seem to get drawn past ~2000m or so, though the higher you set your view distance the closer you will get to that ~2000m limit. At lower view distances the actual object view distance is much lower than what you set - for example at ~1600m view distance objects only appear up to something in the area of 800m or so. Try it yourself by using the spacebar and pointing at the most distant tree you can see and repeat for different settings.

[SFJackBauer 10]

The thing is, that this magnified area could be pretty large. There are many kinds of scopes, and with a small zoom it could mean lots of grass.

Then draw only inside a certain combination of magnification / distance.

It doesn't need to be 0 or 1. It only needs the sufficient to retain the sense of reality. As I've read somewhere... "There are infinite numbers between 0 and 1".

[walker 0]

Hi All

The grass layer fix that was in ArmA I has been improved in the betas released, so it deals with the case of a soldier hiding in grass at distance.

ArmA already renders actual grass and grass type clutter out further than any other game. As computers improve that distance will increase but the current solution is pretty close to optimal already.

All that needs to be done to complete the picture is to marry the two methods into a smooth whole and match AI spotting capabilities to human. The last I must admit is the technically most difficult and is something I have an interest in.

Half the problem is that human players have been miss trained that they are always better than AI at spotting their opponents. Logically this is not true as with humans circumstances and individual capabilities mean that statistically the average human should be beaten at spotting their opponent 50% of the time; but most FPS games are actually first person ego-shooters; games such as COD sell the "dream" that every player is some kind of SAS/SEAL/DELTA/SPETNAZ; Arnold Schwarzenegger/Bruce Willis/Matt Damon ubersoldier.

Then you have the mathematics of human eye brain capabilities which is taxing the greatest computer experts and mathematicians in the world. So it could take a little while, certain things need to be done first. To get around the computers inability to recognise anything much more than a few dots, all games cheat; by already knowing what everything in the simulation is, then applying a statistically based algorithm to the chance of unit x seeing unit y.

There is some ray tracing done but that is also just a crude: is there an object between x and y calculation. No Image recognition is employed in game; though I think aspects the Real Virtuality engine makes a great tool on which to base such a technology; if anyone wants to know more give me a PM.

Kind Regards walker

Edited December 10, 2009 by walker

[Drew 10]

IF a game from 2002, IE ( Joint Operations) could extened grass to 1000 meters away I gurantee a game like this could do it as well, it may be more complicated but I believe its possible.

[maturin 12]

An interesting fact is that when you have the problem where your textures occasionally turn into blurry sprites while the game loads, you can see grass 500m below your chopper change colors, outlined by brown rectangles. If effect, you're seeing distant grass because the game is screwing up.

[Ish 11]

got a link to this fix ?

http://dev-heaven.net/wiki/proper-projects/PROPER_projects#Object-drawing-distance-tweak

It's these files you want.

"

* VehiclesVisibleAtDistance Visuals C PROPER

Readme, bisign

* StaticsVisibleAtDistance Visuals C PROPER

Readme, bisign

* RoadsVisibleAtDistance Visuals C PROPER

Readme, bisign

* TreesVisibleAtDistance Visuals C PROPER

Readme, bisign

"

[Flaxpants 10]

Having Unlimited Grass is something I think about a lot...